Factions: Sick of them

[AlphaShard]

From Fallout, to Skyrim, to Pillar's I've had it up to here with dealing with squabbling factions that care for nothing outside their own interests. I'm so glad that they designed an "go it alone" option at the end of this. It's amazing how a Living God doesn't unite these people at all. The Ratuians make the least sense in this game, they hate their own kind just because they are more advanced. The Vallians can only see gold coins, though I do agree they need to advance Animancy. The Principi think they are nobles but are nothing more than pirates. The Huana were the only ones I could stand but even they did exploitation of nature around them. 

 

I tried to show mercy to those idiot Ruatai's but they still show up at Ukaiso wanting to fight. 

[Celan]

Yes, I also drop kicked every one of them. I was going to go with the VTC til they wanted me to murder a bunch of people with their broken animancy teleporter. Put into perspective all the conscience wrestling I had done with Maia about her missions.

 

I had sympathy with the Rauataians for wanting to fix their storm problem. Then when I went solo to Ukaizo and stopped the storm, they had to attack me for it? Why? I might have possessed the knowledge they needed to fix the storms.

 

I was going to go with the Principi, but somehow I couldn't convince Furrante to stand down even though I had found Castrol's letter in his quarters. He says "you have no proof" and I had to agree with him- wut? So I said screw them, too.

 

The Huana were the most sympathetic since it's their home, but they're as terrible to their own as the outsiders are to them, and their declaration that Ukaizo would be banned to foreigners was doomed to fail. I kind of screwed them inadvertently by releasing their dragon and convincing Tekehu to follow his bliss, I guess. Might have done that differently.

[Crucis]

Seriously?

 

This is no more than a reflection of the real world.  Different groups, parties, factions, countries, whatever have different agendas.  That's reality.  And sometimes the animosity between groups is so great that even on an issue where any degree of common sense would say that they have a common ground and could come up with a solution on some small issue, you sometimes end up with one group refusing to work with the other group because they'd rather bash the other group and see them lose than to accept that the two groups actually do agree on the issue and accept a win-win.

 

Exactly what makes you think that if these factions were anything like normal humans that they'd be able to do what you want them to do and come to a common solution?  For that matter, remember that the nations and peoples represented in this game are in an era not unlike Earth's Renaissance era, and not exactly like the (supposedly) more enlightened people of our times.

[Tarlonniel]

This is no more than a reflection of the real world.

 

Unless you're playing a real life simulator, there is absolutely no requirement for a game to reflect the "real world." Especially a world as different from ours as Eora is.

[Tigranes]

But why get rid of factions altogether? They are clearly good for building RPG gameplay and quests.

 

The problem is that they're too half-arsed. New Vegas remains the holy grail on how it should be done, but we know it takes a huge amount of effort to script it all.

 

Each faction being awful/stupid in their own way is totally fine, though. Much better than 'har har we eat babies' faction vs 'oh i am just a big breasted elf woman trying to help everyone' faction.

[E.RedMark]

as much as I hate skylame , at least they didn't bicker . If anything , they were something you could walk away from and don't feel guilty about not joining ever . 

 

Here as soon as you find the castle...its politic..politic..politic....

 

wonder if they got along , how it would feel like...imagine , all those ships behind you in the end ! 

[Crucis]

Yes, I also drop kicked every one of them. I was going to go with the VTC til they wanted me to murder a bunch of people with their broken animancy teleporter. Put into perspective all the conscience wrestling I had done with Maia about her missions.

 

I had sympathy with the Rauataians for wanting to fix their storm problem. Then when I went solo to Ukaizo and stopped the storm, they had to attack me for it? Why? I might have possessed the knowledge they needed to fix the storms.

 

I was going to go with the Principi, but somehow I couldn't convince Furrante to stand down even though I had found Castrol's letter in his quarters. He says "you have no proof" and I had to agree with him- wut? So I said screw them, too.

 

The Huana were the most sympathetic since it's their home, but they're as terrible to their own as the outsiders are to them, and their declaration that Ukaizo would be banned to foreigners was doomed to fail. I kind of screwed them inadvertently by releasing their dragon and convincing Tekehu to follow his bliss, I guess. Might have done that differently.

 

 

In my first run through, I sided with the Rauatai, mostly because I didn't want to lose Maia (and liked her loud brother).   But regardless, there really is no way to please everyone and find a diplomatic solution that somewhat pleases everyone.  You either pick a faction, and tick off the other three.  Or you pick none of them, and tick off all four.

 

Looking at what you describe above, the problem is that there's no halfway.  Having sympathy for one group, or a number of groups, doesn't mean anything.  You are forced to side with one group for your sympathy to matter.  And any sympathy for any other faction is completely ignored and wasted.

 

In some ways, it's too bad that it wasn't possible to come up with or force a minor agreement where The Watcher as the Herald of Berath couldn't go to Ukaizo on his/her own and deal with the situation in whatever way The Watcher deemed proper and that all the other factions would accept this.  Heck, I could see a scene at the Queen's palace where each side tried to convince the Watcher to do what they felt was the right thing.  But in the end, it'd be the  Watcher's choice.  Of course, I suppose depending on what the Watcher said in this 4 sided confrontation, each of the 4 sides might choose to either accept the Watcher or attempt to stop him.  But even this might be asking too much, given all the animosity between the 4 groups and "human" nature.

[Crucis]

 

This is no more than a reflection of the real world.

 

Unless you're playing a real life simulator, there is absolutely no requirement for a game to reflect the "real world." Especially a world as different from ours as Eora is.

 

 

Requirement, no.  But it seems rather clear to me that the writers are trying to parallel human history.  And expecting a world where all the groups are behaving pretty much like Earth humans to be any different seems rather delusional.

[Crucis]

as much as I hate skylame , at least they didn't bicker . If anything , they were something you could walk away from and don't feel guilty about not joining ever . 

 

Here as soon as you find the castle...its politic..politic..politic....

 

wonder if they got along , how it would feel like...imagine , all those ships behind you in the end ! 

 

Politics is the womb in which wars are born.

[Celan]

Seriously?

 

This is no more than a reflection of the real world.  Different groups, parties, factions, countries, whatever have different agendas.  That's reality.  And sometimes the animosity between groups is so great that even on an issue where any degree of common sense would say that they have a common ground and could come up with a solution on some small issue, you sometimes end up with one group refusing to work with the other group because they'd rather bash the other group and see them lose than to accept that the two groups actually do agree on the issue and accept a win-win.

 

Exactly what makes you think that if these factions were anything like normal humans that they'd be able to do what you want them to do and come to a common solution?  For that matter, remember that the nations and peoples represented in this game are in an era not unlike Earth's Renaissance era, and not exactly like the (supposedly) more enlightened people of our times.

Okay. Still gives me no reason to involve myself in any one of them.

 

More realistic would be to broker an alliance between two of them to cut the others out.

Edited June 11, 2018 by Celan

[Crucis]

 

Seriously?

 

This is no more than a reflection of the real world.  Different groups, parties, factions, countries, whatever have different agendas.  That's reality.  And sometimes the animosity between groups is so great that even on an issue where any degree of common sense would say that they have a common ground and could come up with a solution on some small issue, you sometimes end up with one group refusing to work with the other group because they'd rather bash the other group and see them lose than to accept that the two groups actually do agree on the issue and accept a win-win.

 

Exactly what makes you think that if these factions were anything like normal humans that they'd be able to do what you want them to do and come to a common solution?  For that matter, remember that the nations and peoples represented in this game are in an era not unlike Earth's Renaissance era, and not exactly like the (supposedly) more enlightened people of our times.

Okay. Still gives me no reason to involve myself in any one of them.

 

More realistic would be to broker an alliance between two of them to cut the others out.

 

 

No doubt that trying to broker an alliance seems realistic. 

 

I suppose that a Rauatai-Valian alliance might be possible if the Rauatai agreed to allow the Valians access to luminous adra, while the Rauatai gain control of the area.  I suppose that the Huana and Valians could come to a similar agreement.

 

I'm not sure that a Rauatai-Huana agreement would be possible, since the Rauatai want control of the DF, and the Huana obviously wouldn't willingly surrender their sovereignty.

 

And I'm not at all sure that anyone would willingly ally themselves with the Principi.

[bugarup]

I hate the "Living God" protagonist type with a scorching passion of ten thousand blue suns and so factions that do not give a toss about Mary Sue's the McWishFulfillment pwecious feewings and do their own thing instead of kissing Charname's arse always make me happy. 

 

And with all my undying biased love to New Vegas I gotta say Deadfire's factions are way, way better written. E.g. Legion was very underdeveloped -- there was hearsay about their territories being safe and raider-free, but all you met from Legion were abhorrent slavers, rapists and sadists deserving no more than a rabid dog treatment. Meanwhile  the closest Legion analogue in Deadfire --  RDC --  is much more nuanced, better fleshed out and even have smart people here and in other forums defend them with rational, well-thought arguments. 

Edited June 11, 2018 by bugarup

[wRAR]

I'm so glad that they designed an "go it alone" option at the end of this. 

which gives a bad ending.

[Celan]

I hate the "Living God" protagonist type with a scorching passion of ten thousand blue suns and so factions that do not give a toss about Mary Sue's the McWishFulfillment pwecious feewings and do their own thing instead of kissing Charname's arse always make me happy.

But... they still do suck up. And without the protagonist, they can't solve their own problems and never get a leg up on the others. So we're back to square one.

Edited June 11, 2018 by Celan

[bugarup]

They don't suck up. They want to use you. There is a difference. 

[Usana]

 

 

Seriously?

 

This is no more than a reflection of the real world.  Different groups, parties, factions, countries, whatever have different agendas.  That's reality.  And sometimes the animosity between groups is so great that even on an issue where any degree of common sense would say that they have a common ground and could come up with a solution on some small issue, you sometimes end up with one group refusing to work with the other group because they'd rather bash the other group and see them lose than to accept that the two groups actually do agree on the issue and accept a win-win.

 

Exactly what makes you think that if these factions were anything like normal humans that they'd be able to do what you want them to do and come to a common solution?  For that matter, remember that the nations and peoples represented in this game are in an era not unlike Earth's Renaissance era, and not exactly like the (supposedly) more enlightened people of our times.

Okay. Still gives me no reason to involve myself in any one of them.

 

More realistic would be to broker an alliance between two of them to cut the others out.

 

 

No doubt that trying to broker an alliance seems realistic. 

 

I suppose that a Rauatai-Valian alliance might be possible if the Rauatai agreed to allow the Valians access to luminous adra, while the Rauatai gain control of the area.  I suppose that the Huana and Valians could come to a similar agreement.

 

I'm not sure that a Rauatai-Huana agreement would be possible, since the Rauatai want control of the DF, and the Huana obviously wouldn't willingly surrender their sovereignty.

 

And I'm not at all sure that anyone would willingly ally themselves with the Principi.

 

 

Basically this. I was sad that I couldn't get the Rauatai and Valians to shake hands. So yeah I really wish a good 'diplomat' character could broker agreements rather than just killing crap like a paid mercenary. Lots of tough dialogue checks would be a quite welcome alternative.

 

Like you I agree that the logical alliances would be Rauatai and Valians and Huana and Valians. However, I could see Huana and Valians as willing to work with the Principi. It would require brokering an agreement with the Principi to not target their ally's ships and to focus on their ally's foes though. And that would likely be a tough sell. Furrante would probably be easier to get on board? The Rauatai sound like they would be the hardest to get along with. I can't really see anyone but the Valians truly working with them given the particular circumstances.

 

Errr. . . anyways when I play games I tend to like to play the silver tongued diplomat that can convince folks to work together, so not being able to broker an agreement is sad. At least I can do so between the Bardatto and the Valera.

[Farsha]

Factions are actually where the game shines (and Neketaka). Most interesting quets and decisions are made in factions quests.
Main story is there just to justify the facions shenanigans. (and is pretty weak)

Yes, they are all ****ty. But most have duality in them. All have it's pros and cons, just like most real life political factions. Their nuances make the game interesting.

 

Interesting you chose Huana to be the best. I'd say they are the worst. They are racist, xenopohbes following suprestitions and dark age traditons. Their caste system might be worse than actual slavery.
 

[Shadenuat]

There's some truth in that most rpgs are either chosen one, or, if they're hardcore, they must also have factions and you are dirty dirt farming farmer and must prove yourself and rise to power.

 

There aren't a lot of rpgs that break this gameplay, like play wizard - fight other wizard towers; play rogue in rogue world - just to get gold to get out of ****ty rogue life.

 

That's what I liked about Expeditions: Conquistador. It had different structure, based around moving forward and exploring foreign lands and your goal was different to usual rpg goals.

 

RPGs could use a bit of fresh perspective on adventure and it's structure.

 

As for PoE2, I felt like faction play in it treats you like a moron, as you can fail multiple quests and still proceed with the faction. Good faction play like say in Gothic closes more paths and opens more new ones and it's not just the endgame where your rep with them matters.

Edited June 11, 2018 by Shadenuat

[Owlbear]

This is the part I didn't like at all. It's even worse when you learn about the golden ages of Ukaizo when every kith prospered. It was a great chance to make an alliance even if just for a temporary truce. 

 

People don't have to like the same things, but they absolutely must hate the same. I bet every single faction and their people prefer to keep their lives with their souls intact. So even if only by a mission impossible level route, but there should be a way to hammer them together to face an end of the whole world level danger. If not everyone, then at least some of them, but even that's better than squabbling children fighting over their next fav toy. 

Edited June 11, 2018 by Owlbear

[Porcelyn]

I don't mind them. They keep different playthroughs unique. I just wish you were locked out of them way sooner.

[Tagaziel]

From Fallout, to Skyrim, to Pillar's I've had it up to here with dealing with squabbling factions that care for nothing outside their own interests. I'm so glad that they designed an "go it alone" option at the end of this.

Works of culture reflect the times they're made in and these games are no exceptions. I'm kind of surprised to see someone complain about the excellent faction system which gives no perfect options and forces you to make hard choices - with no perfectly good way out (go alone is the very bad ending).

 

It's amazing how a Living God doesn't unite these people at all. The Ratuians make the least sense in this game, they hate their own kind just because they are more advanced.

Uh, they aren't the same kind. Rauatai and the Huana have been separated by two thousands years of history. To call them "their own kind" makes about as much sense as referring to modern western Europe/North Africa/Balkans as "one kind" because the Romans controlled it all at one time.

 

I love Deadfire for its implementation of factions.

[AeonsLegend]

Seriously?

 

This is no more than a reflection of the real world.  Different groups, parties, factions, countries, whatever have different agendas.  That's reality.  And sometimes the animosity between groups is so great that even on an issue where any degree of common sense would say that they have a common ground and could come up with a solution on some small issue, you sometimes end up with one group refusing to work with the other group because they'd rather bash the other group and see them lose than to accept that the two groups actually do agree on the issue and accept a win-win.

 

Exactly what makes you think that if these factions were anything like normal humans that they'd be able to do what you want them to do and come to a common solution?  For that matter, remember that the nations and peoples represented in this game are in an era not unlike Earth's Renaissance era, and not exactly like the (supposedly) more enlightened people of our times.

Exept if you join all of them (like in all games that have factions) it will probably end very bad for you.

[Climhazzard]

I used my character backstory to determine my actions in the Deadfire.  Deadfire>slave.  Then slaughtered anyone and everything that supports the crookspur slavers, with only minor support to the remaining factions, but ultimately went my own way because my character didn't really care about the Deadfire and who became the Top Dog there.

[JFutral]

I went it alone my first playthrough and rooted Eothas on, too. Didn't like any of the factions. I would have evn sided with a True Neutral if there was such a thing in this universe.

 

In terms of diplomacy, though, has anyone tried dumping all their skill points into diplomacy to see if things come out different?
 

Joe

[gkathellar]

From Fallout, to Skyrim, to Pillar's I've had it up to here with dealing with squabbling factions that care for nothing outside their own interests. I'm so glad that they designed an "go it alone" option at the end of this.

 

Insofar as it's becoming a cliche in CRPGs, I can sympathize. It's certainly realistic, especially in a sweeping fantasy epic full of political turbulence as most CRPGs tend to be these days, but the whole thing was significantly more novel back in the days of Fallout 1 and BG2 and the like. These days, I'd be surprised to see a CRPG without at least three factions you can take the side of. It's not an inherently bad thing, but I can certainly understand your frustration with the universality of the trope.

 

That said!

 

It's amazing how a Living God doesn't unite these people at all.

 

Yes, well, people with identical religious beliefs frequently kill each other. To say nothing of the people who don't believe it's a god, the people who don't care that it's a god, the people who worship another deity (especially a rival god), etc. And on the other side of the equation, despite the optimism of fiction about people's ability to unify in the face of shared existential threats, I have yet to see that actually happen.

 

The Ratuians make the least sense in this game, they hate their own kind just because they are more advanced.

 

They make perfect sense, insofar as man's inhumanity to man ever does. Rauataians see the Huana as backwards, superstitious, and in need of guidance from a superior people, and that's when they're being generous.

 

The Vallians can only see gold coins, though I do agree they need to advance Animancy.

 

That's because the VTC is pretty explicitly Eora's version of the Dutch East India Company.

 

The Principi think they are nobles but are nothing more than pirates.

 

Most pirating, historically, was state-sponsored, or at least state-tolerated. The idea of a pirate nation with an unrealistically high opinion of itself ain't as crazy as you might think.