The tank gears that makes your character immortal deserve a nerf

[dunehunter]

So Obsidian if you want to bring Triple Crown Solo into the game, you need to consider downtune these gears listed below:

 

Cadhu Scalth: +12+4+15 = 31 deflection, +37 deflection with sword&shield style.

 

Gipon Prudensco: +20 deflection, +5 deflecton from steadfast, +25 deflection in total.

 

Etonia Signet Ring: +15 All Defense when engaged by 5 enemy.

 

Giftbearer Cloak: +25 All Defense except Deflection, when u have 20 history.

 

So in total you get +77 deflection, +40 All other defense with these 4 gears. Seriously it makes any of your fragile characters into immortal tanks. And even turn your paladin/chanter into a untouchable god. I can go grab a coffee and see my character has full health when I play PoTD with that +5 Difficulty Mod. If you realise that defense has an increasing gain compare to other stats, you won't design such ridiculous gears which are all stackable.

Edited May 27, 2018 by dunehunter

[Climhazzard]

My tank doesn't even really need that stuff and I can still go get a coffee... 

 

I do think the skill scaling gears are completely out of line compared to everything else available though, and the signet ring effect should probably cap at say 3 enemies. 

 

Seeing a lot of the build videos being posted right now, it's really not just the skill scaling gear that is out of line.  I really do hope some of this stuff gets hit by the balance pass coming soon, but I'm not really getting my hopes up.  I'm guessing it'll be 3.0 before this stuff is balanced.

Edited May 26, 2018 by Climhazzard

[dunehunter]

My tank doesn't even really need that stuff and I can still go get a coffee... 

 

I do think the skill scaling gears are completely out of line compared to everything else available though, and the signet ring effect should probably cap at say 3 enemies. 

 

Seeing a lot of the build videos being posted right now, it's really not just the skill scaling gear that is out of line.  I really do hope some of this stuff gets hit by the balance pass coming soon, but I'm not really getting my hopes up.  I'm guessing it'll be 3.0 before this stuff is balanced.

 

Yeah it's true, but anyway just post it here in case some dev can take a look

 

It's really hard to find any enemy with 150+ accuracy in the game, so having 200+ deflection literally means u won't get a hit. And I totally agree skill scaling gears are out of line, I don't even know why these exist at all.

Edited May 26, 2018 by dunehunter

[Ildun]

Actually I don't understand why people want to nerf single player game. If you want challenge, just don't use them isn't it? 

[Tosho]

Actually I don't understand why people want to nerf single player game. If you want challenge, just don't use them isn't it? 

 

That's artificial difficulty. 

 

Likewise the people who want an easy time should just play on the easy difficulties. Path of the Damned was designed for a challenge and is incapable of providing one at the moment.

Edited May 26, 2018 by Tosho

[takamorisan]

They are going to do encounter rebalance and probably they will look into classes and items.

[Myrtillo]

 

Actually I don't understand why people want to nerf single player game. If you want challenge, just don't use them isn't it? 

 

That's artificial difficulty. 

 

Likewise the people who want an easy time should just play on the easy difficulties. Path of the Damned was designed for a challenge and is incapable of providing one at the moment.

 

 

It does indeed not provide a great challenge to characters that are fully min/maxed and using scaling gear with min maxed skills to match these items.

It does, however, provide an interesting challenge to characters that are built with a minimum of roleplay where choices are motivated by more than mere stats (like companions and sidekicks are, btw, and there is no denying that they are a massive part of the experience intended by the devs).

Still not enough challenge imo, and we all know it has been acknowledged by the devs, and will be tuned, but interesting challenge nonetheless.

 

The conception that PotD should be designed to accomodate powerbuilders is subjective, and quite frankly, not really fitting a game like POE2:Deadfire that focuses on writing, environement, and roleplaying. 

 

 

Also, why putting restrictions on yourself would be artificial difficulty ? Isn't it the essence of a RPG to make choices that your character would make ? Or to reflect his actual skills in the stats ?

Is your 4 resolve watcher really a coward ? Does he really know all the history of Eora, but can't even slightly bluff, has zero interest in metaphysics despite being a watcher ?

 

And more importantly: What difference does it make to your personal single player gameplay experience if you: A -  don't use an option because you think you will have more fun like this, or B- the option is simply removed from the game  ?

[Ganrich]

Items and abilities are so overtuned, and the system is so out of whack that you can make a pretty unoptimized RP flavor character and steamroll PotD.  PotD right now is easier than Hard in PoE1.  The game needs balancing, and most of that is down tuning some of the more broken and OP things.  This whole "well run around naked and don't use any of the stuff in the game to get your challenge from playing the game" argument is awful.  There are supposed to be difficulty settings, and these abilities can still be potent enough to make story mode and easy settings give a good power fantasy.  However, these items/abilities are far too powerful to even give a moderate challenge on PotD at present.

 

Don't use those items.  Ok, but monks are OP as all get out.  Well, don't play monks.  Ok, but Chanters are pretty crazy too.  Don't play Chanters then.  Ok, Fighters break the game.  Well don't play them either.  Ok, well the Barbarians can clear out everything easily.  Well, don't play those classes.  What about Wizards? Druids?  Priests?

 

So, what you are saying is I need to play solo with a backstabbing rogue whose dumped might and perception to minimum, and pumped Resolve and Con.  All the while avoiding gear, refusing to use athletics, arcane, explosives, or alchemy... in order to get a challenge on the hardest difficulty?

 

So, really what we are saying is "don't play the game".  Avoid everything in the game in order to artificially ramp up difficulty.  Makes sense. 

[Ildun]

So, really what we are saying is "don't play the game".  Avoid everything in the game in order to artificially ramp up difficulty.  Makes sense. 

 

I get your point, but what about players who enjoy overpower? Is nerf fair to them?

 

I don't know how hard to do it, but i think difficulty setting should alter some fundamental of gameplay such as class instead of just adjust number and those should be optional such as expert mode instead of all nerf base on difficulty alone.

[Myrtillo]

Items and abilities are so overtuned, and the system is so out of whack that you can make a pretty unoptimized RP flavor character and steamroll PotD.  PotD right now is easier than Hard in PoE1.  The game needs balancing, and most of that is down tuning some of the more broken and OP things.  This whole "well run around naked and don't use any of the stuff in the game to get your challenge from playing the game" argument is awful.  There are supposed to be difficulty settings, and these abilities can still be potent enough to make story mode and easy settings give a good power fantasy.  However, these items/abilities are far too powerful to even give a moderate challenge on PotD at present.

 

Don't use those items.  Ok, but monks are OP as all get out.  Well, don't play monks.  Ok, but Chanters are pretty crazy too.  Don't play Chanters then.  Ok, Fighters break the game.  Well don't play them either.  Ok, well the Barbarians can clear out everything easily.  Well, don't play those classes.  What about Wizards? Druids?  Priests?

 

So, what you are saying is I need to play solo with a backstabbing rogue whose dumped might and perception to minimum, and pumped Resolve and Con.  All the while avoiding gear, refusing to use athletics, arcane, explosives, or alchemy... in order to get a challenge on the hardest difficulty?

 

So, really what we are saying is "don't play the game".  Avoid everything in the game in order to artificially ramp up difficulty.  Makes sense. 

 

Although I understand what you are trying to say, your exaggeration, and the way you distort what has been said discredits your argument.

There is no denying that either a lot of stuff is terribly overtuned, or the difficulty in veteran and PotD is too low, and probably both.

 

The topic was about specific items that are indeed broken in certain conditions, and those conditions require min-maxing for the scaling items. It is your character development choice to min/max those. You will indeed gain a lot of defenses, and loose a lot of interaction potential, in a game were combat is far from the only thing to do.

 

Fighters, Chanters, or Monks are not inherently OP. I play Eder as a fighter, and he does not feel broken at all. A handfull of abilities in these classes are OP, and break the game if used repeatedly. Why would you use something else ? Because it looks cooler. Because it is more fun. Find your reasons, it's your experience.

Why do I wear a valian froc with low armor and zero bonus instead of a robe that has better stats? Because it looks better and it makes me happy.

 

All i am saying is, if you found a way to break the game, break it, and complain that it is broken, then you did that to yourself. There is no competition, no ranking whatsoever, so nothing stops you from playing it differently if it is more fun for you.

 

Once again, I do agree that Deadfire has serious balancing issues that need to be adressed quickly to increase the fun potential even more. There is no denying that and I am really looking forward to those changes. And in particular to make relevant some mechanics that are gimmicky at best at the moment.

 

What I dislike however, is the general trend of thinking that "this mechanic is broken in my way of playing the game and my way of playing is better than yours". 

Well in my way of playing, none of my characters really have history knowledge. I think Aloth has 8. And therefore giftbearer cloak is not broken. But that fight you could not avoid due to your low insight that comes with maxed history, I could avoid it. A whole fight won without fighting it, how broken could that be ? Please nerf dialogues.

Or don't, because my way of playing is mine alone, and not more nor less valid than another's.

[dunehunter]

 

Items and abilities are so overtuned, and the system is so out of whack that you can make a pretty unoptimized RP flavor character and steamroll PotD.  PotD right now is easier than Hard in PoE1.  The game needs balancing, and most of that is down tuning some of the more broken and OP things.  This whole "well run around naked and don't use any of the stuff in the game to get your challenge from playing the game" argument is awful.  There are supposed to be difficulty settings, and these abilities can still be potent enough to make story mode and easy settings give a good power fantasy.  However, these items/abilities are far too powerful to even give a moderate challenge on PotD at present.

 

Don't use those items.  Ok, but monks are OP as all get out.  Well, don't play monks.  Ok, but Chanters are pretty crazy too.  Don't play Chanters then.  Ok, Fighters break the game.  Well don't play them either.  Ok, well the Barbarians can clear out everything easily.  Well, don't play those classes.  What about Wizards? Druids?  Priests?

 

So, what you are saying is I need to play solo with a backstabbing rogue whose dumped might and perception to minimum, and pumped Resolve and Con.  All the while avoiding gear, refusing to use athletics, arcane, explosives, or alchemy... in order to get a challenge on the hardest difficulty?

 

So, really what we are saying is "don't play the game".  Avoid everything in the game in order to artificially ramp up difficulty.  Makes sense. 

 

Although I understand what you are trying to say, your exaggeration, and the way you distort what has been said discredits your argument.

There is no denying that either a lot of stuff is terribly overtuned, or the difficulty in veteran and PotD is too low, and probably both.

 

The topic was about specific items that are indeed broken in certain conditions, and those conditions require min-maxing for the scaling items. It is your character development choice to min/max those. You will indeed gain a lot of defenses, and loose a lot of interaction potential, in a game were combat is far from the only thing to do.

 

Fighters, Chanters, or Monks are not inherently OP. I play Eder as a fighter, and he does not feel broken at all. A handfull of abilities in these classes are OP, and break the game if used repeatedly. Why would you use something else ? Because it looks cooler. Because it is more fun. Find your reasons, it's your experience.

Why do I wear a valian froc with low armor and zero bonus instead of a robe that has better stats? Because it looks better and it makes me happy.

 

All i am saying is, if you found a way to break the game, break it, and complain that it is broken, then you did that to yourself. There is no competition, no ranking whatsoever, so nothing stops you from playing it differently if it is more fun for you.

 

Once again, I do agree that Deadfire has serious balancing issues that need to be adressed quickly to increase the fun potential even more. There is no denying that and I am really looking forward to those changes. And in particular to make relevant some mechanics that are gimmicky at best at the moment.

 

What I dislike however, is the general trend of thinking that "this mechanic is broken in my way of playing the game and my way of playing is better than yours". 

Well in my way of playing, none of my characters really have history knowledge. I think Aloth has 8. And therefore giftbearer cloak is not broken. But that fight you could not avoid due to your low insight that comes with maxed history, I could avoid it. A whole fight won without fighting it, how broken could that be ? Please nerf dialogues.

Or don't, because my way of playing is mine alone, and not more nor less valid than another's.

 

 

Maybe you misunderstood my intention of the thread. I'm pleading to Obsidian to pay attention to these kind of overtuned gears if they wanna implement any kinda of challenging achievement into the game. Because if these OP things exists, there's no meaning to bring Triple Crown Solo into the game right now, totally meaningless, it supposed to be very hard to archieve and gives great satisfaction to players who made it, but not now with all these broken stuff.

[Boeroer]

Powergamers delight in dominating the game, sure. But they want to come up with a smart build idea that's not trivial, test it a bit and then be happy when it indeed works very well in an actual playthrough.

 

When every derp can steamroll the game with a toilet-paper wielding accountant the Powergamer cries.

 

Creativity needs boundaries.

 

Same with achievements.

Edited May 26, 2018 by Boeroer

[Ganrich]

 

Items and abilities are so overtuned, and the system is so out of whack that you can make a pretty unoptimized RP flavor character and steamroll PotD.  PotD right now is easier than Hard in PoE1.  The game needs balancing, and most of that is down tuning some of the more broken and OP things.  This whole "well run around naked and don't use any of the stuff in the game to get your challenge from playing the game" argument is awful.  There are supposed to be difficulty settings, and these abilities can still be potent enough to make story mode and easy settings give a good power fantasy.  However, these items/abilities are far too powerful to even give a moderate challenge on PotD at present.

 

Don't use those items.  Ok, but monks are OP as all get out.  Well, don't play monks.  Ok, but Chanters are pretty crazy too.  Don't play Chanters then.  Ok, Fighters break the game.  Well don't play them either.  Ok, well the Barbarians can clear out everything easily.  Well, don't play those classes.  What about Wizards? Druids?  Priests?

 

So, what you are saying is I need to play solo with a backstabbing rogue whose dumped might and perception to minimum, and pumped Resolve and Con.  All the while avoiding gear, refusing to use athletics, arcane, explosives, or alchemy... in order to get a challenge on the hardest difficulty?

 

So, really what we are saying is "don't play the game".  Avoid everything in the game in order to artificially ramp up difficulty.  Makes sense. 

 

Although I understand what you are trying to say, your exaggeration, and the way you distort what has been said discredits your argument.

There is no denying that either a lot of stuff is terribly overtuned, or the difficulty in veteran and PotD is too low, and probably both.

 

The topic was about specific items that are indeed broken in certain conditions, and those conditions require min-maxing for the scaling items. It is your character development choice to min/max those. You will indeed gain a lot of defenses, and loose a lot of interaction potential, in a game were combat is far from the only thing to do.

 

Fighters, Chanters, or Monks are not inherently OP. I play Eder as a fighter, and he does not feel broken at all. A handfull of abilities in these classes are OP, and break the game if used repeatedly. Why would you use something else ? Because it looks cooler. Because it is more fun. Find your reasons, it's your experience.

Why do I wear a valian froc with low armor and zero bonus instead of a robe that has better stats? Because it looks better and it makes me happy.

 

All i am saying is, if you found a way to break the game, break it, and complain that it is broken, then you did that to yourself. There is no competition, no ranking whatsoever, so nothing stops you from playing it differently if it is more fun for you.

 

Once again, I do agree that Deadfire has serious balancing issues that need to be adressed quickly to increase the fun potential even more. There is no denying that and I am really looking forward to those changes. And in particular to make relevant some mechanics that are gimmicky at best at the moment.

 

What I dislike however, is the general trend of thinking that "this mechanic is broken in my way of playing the game and my way of playing is better than yours". 

Well in my way of playing, none of my characters really have history knowledge. I think Aloth has 8. And therefore giftbearer cloak is not broken. But that fight you could not avoid due to your low insight that comes with maxed history, I could avoid it. A whole fight won without fighting it, how broken could that be ? Please nerf dialogues.

Or don't, because my way of playing is mine alone, and not more nor less valid than another's.

 

 

Who says that I am exaggerating?  Monks can one shot any enemy on the field.  Wizards/Druids can wipe the entirety of a battle.  Chanters can regenerate every class's resource and give everyone +100% healing.  Fighters Cleaving stance is silly.  High level Paladins can't die.  So on and so forth.  This is all on PotD.  Asking us to not use the stuff that is overtuned is the equivalent of asking us to not use a good portion of items/abilities in the game, most of the classes in the game, and some of the skills in the game.  I was for sure being facetious, but I wasn't exaggerating. 

 

These items are but a single example of this issue.  They give no satisfaction to anyone who wants to have any type of challenge.  If it were one or two things that would be one thing.  It isn't.  The game is replete with stuff like this. 

 

The other people on this forum that are the power builders will be here in 6 months making builds.  They will answer questions for those that come late to the Deadfire party.  They will keep this forum alive for a few years, but only if they find a challenge in order to justify those builds.  The PoE forums stayed pretty active for such a small title.  It is all on the shoulders of those folks, and it is good for new players to have a place to look for advice.  It is wise to ensure they still have that challenge in Deadfire.  As that is why they will be here in 6 months, or a year, or 5 years.  PoE1 was a small but active community, and Deadfire needs to be the same. 

 

Now, I am glad you are finding enjoyment in the game.  I am also glad that you feel that you are getting an appropriate challenge in the game.  However, this isn't an either or scenario.  These items can be reduced in potency, and still be incredibly powerful and borderline broken in lower difficulty settings.  At their current power level, however, they trivialize the hardest difficulty.  So much so that they make Triple Crown Solo runs breezy.  Now, some of that can be alleviated by ramping up PotD, and we know that Obsidian didn't tune it completely.  However, there are for sure things that tuning up PotD won't fix. 

Edited May 26, 2018 by Ganrich

[Boeroer]

The other people on this forum that are the power builders will be here in 6 months making builds. They will answer questions for those that come late to the Deadfire party. They will keep this forum alive for a few years, but only if they find a challenge in order to justify those builds. The PoE forums stayed pretty active for such a small title. It is all on the shoulders of those folks, and it is good for new players to have a place to look for advice. It is wise to ensure they still have that challenge in Deadfire. As that is why they will be here in 6 months, or a year, or 5 years. PoE1 was a small but active community, and Deadfire needs to be the same.

 

I agree wholeheartedly.

 

I (for example) will not post any build as long as the game is in such an unbalanced state. It's ok for now and for my first playthrough because atm the story is the most important thing. But for long term investment to happen it needs to be more balanced. A lot more.

[Myrtillo]

 

 

Items and abilities are so overtuned, and the system is so out of whack that you can make a pretty unoptimized RP flavor character and steamroll PotD.  PotD right now is easier than Hard in PoE1.  The game needs balancing, and most of that is down tuning some of the more broken and OP things.  This whole "well run around naked and don't use any of the stuff in the game to get your challenge from playing the game" argument is awful.  There are supposed to be difficulty settings, and these abilities can still be potent enough to make story mode and easy settings give a good power fantasy.  However, these items/abilities are far too powerful to even give a moderate challenge on PotD at present.

 

Don't use those items.  Ok, but monks are OP as all get out.  Well, don't play monks.  Ok, but Chanters are pretty crazy too.  Don't play Chanters then.  Ok, Fighters break the game.  Well don't play them either.  Ok, well the Barbarians can clear out everything easily.  Well, don't play those classes.  What about Wizards? Druids?  Priests?

 

So, what you are saying is I need to play solo with a backstabbing rogue whose dumped might and perception to minimum, and pumped Resolve and Con.  All the while avoiding gear, refusing to use athletics, arcane, explosives, or alchemy... in order to get a challenge on the hardest difficulty?

 

So, really what we are saying is "don't play the game".  Avoid everything in the game in order to artificially ramp up difficulty.  Makes sense. 

 

Although I understand what you are trying to say, your exaggeration, and the way you distort what has been said discredits your argument.

There is no denying that either a lot of stuff is terribly overtuned, or the difficulty in veteran and PotD is too low, and probably both.

 

The topic was about specific items that are indeed broken in certain conditions, and those conditions require min-maxing for the scaling items. It is your character development choice to min/max those. You will indeed gain a lot of defenses, and loose a lot of interaction potential, in a game were combat is far from the only thing to do.

 

Fighters, Chanters, or Monks are not inherently OP. I play Eder as a fighter, and he does not feel broken at all. A handfull of abilities in these classes are OP, and break the game if used repeatedly. Why would you use something else ? Because it looks cooler. Because it is more fun. Find your reasons, it's your experience.

Why do I wear a valian froc with low armor and zero bonus instead of a robe that has better stats? Because it looks better and it makes me happy.

 

All i am saying is, if you found a way to break the game, break it, and complain that it is broken, then you did that to yourself. There is no competition, no ranking whatsoever, so nothing stops you from playing it differently if it is more fun for you.

 

Once again, I do agree that Deadfire has serious balancing issues that need to be adressed quickly to increase the fun potential even more. There is no denying that and I am really looking forward to those changes. And in particular to make relevant some mechanics that are gimmicky at best at the moment.

 

What I dislike however, is the general trend of thinking that "this mechanic is broken in my way of playing the game and my way of playing is better than yours". 

Well in my way of playing, none of my characters really have history knowledge. I think Aloth has 8. And therefore giftbearer cloak is not broken. But that fight you could not avoid due to your low insight that comes with maxed history, I could avoid it. A whole fight won without fighting it, how broken could that be ? Please nerf dialogues.

Or don't, because my way of playing is mine alone, and not more nor less valid than another's.

 

 

Who says that I am exaggerating?  Monks can one shot any enemy on the field.  Wizards/Druids can wipe the entirety of a battle.  Chanters can regenerate every class's resource and give everyone +100% healing.  Fighters Cleaving stance is silly.  High level Paladins can't die.  So on and so forth.  This is all on PotD.  Asking us to not use the stuff that is overtuned is the equivalent of asking us to not use a good portion of items/abilities in the game, most of the classes in the game, and some of the skills in the game.  I was for sure being facetious, but I wasn't exaggerating. 

 

These items are but a single example of this issue.  They give no satisfaction to anyone who wants to have any type of challenge.  If it were one or two things that would be one thing.  It isn't.  The game is replete with stuff like this. 

 

The other people on this forum that are the power builders will be here in 6 months making builds.  They will answer questions for those that come late to the Deadfire party.  They will keep this forum alive for a few years, but only if they find a challenge in order to justify those builds.  The PoE forums stayed pretty active for such a small title.  It is all on the shoulders of those folks, and it is good for new players to have a place to look for advice.  It is wise to ensure they still have that challenge in Deadfire.  As that is why they will be here in 6 months, or a year, or 5 years.  PoE1 was a small but active community, and Deadfire needs to be the same. 

 

Now, I am glad you are finding enjoyment in the game.  I am also glad that you feel that you are getting an appropriate challenge in the game.  However, this isn't an either or scenario.  These items can be reduced in potency, and still be incredibly powerful and borderline broken in lower difficulty settings.  At their current power level, however, they trivialize the hardest difficulty.  So much so that they make Triple Crown Solo runs breezy.  Now, some of that can be alleviated by ramping up PotD, and we know that Obsidian didn't tune it completely.  However, there are for sure things that PotD won't fix. 

 

 

Ok where did you miss the part where I said I agreed with those balance issue and I am really looking forward to the change ? I agree with most of what you say here.

When I talked about you exaggerating, I was not talking about the statement on some abilities of some classes, that are, indeed, overtuned to the stars. I was talking about "well run around naked and don't use any of the stuff in the game to get your challenge from playing the game" . Call it being facetious if you like, I call it make me look like I said what I didn't say (sorry for broken expression, that's a translation from my native language and I can't find better in english for now to express the idea).

 

I am only criticising the global trend on this forum that tends to make of powerbuilding THE holy-sanctified way to play the game. It is one way to play the game.

And since you bring up giving advice on the forum, this is actually where my rant comes from. The powerbuild mentality translates into what is in my opinion biased advice.

 

To pick the latest example I have in mind, to the question:

Is Priest of Berath viable and how should I build it?

The answer should be: Yes, not op but can be really strong even on PotD, do it like this and this and this for good efficiency.

The answer that is often given: Omg no, priest suxx, play Bleak Walker/Troubadour.

 

See the problem ? Now I realize that I probably poorly expressed my idea, since we agree on most of the things and still look like we don't. The point is: Deadfire is clearly designed to let people play. And I feel a wind of self-righteous repression towards players that would dare to play a non-optimized build. Maybe (probably) not from you. I was pointing out the trend.

[Boeroer]

People who say things like "Don't play XY because it sucks, play Z instead" should be forcefully multiclassed to douche/flagellant.

Edited May 26, 2018 by Boeroer

[Ganrich]

@Myrtillo - it could be that we were indeed talking past one another.  I have seen the argument of "why balance single player games" a lot the past couple weeks on these forums, and I may have been too quick to respond.  As off kilter as the balance is... I am eager for it to be tuned. 

 

I still call it being facetious.  As you can, as of right now, play on PotD with minimal gear and just roflstomp the entire experience.  It isn't just classes that are the issue.  It is how some of the items are implemented as this thread indicates.  It is how many things stack that probably shouldn't.  It is certain classes and abilities.  Empower and power level are a huge issue, IMHO.  They scale too well with damage, it stacks, and the armor system doesn't do near enough to counteract that.  So on and so forth. 

 

I try to never tell anyone not to play a class personally.  I will tell someone when I think 2 subclasses won't play well together.  Earlier I did so on a post about Skald/Assassin.  I still tried to help, but I did express my opinion that Assassin and Skald aren't a great mesh IMHO.  That is mostly because Chanter doesn't play well with Stealth as it is currently implemented.  Or, probably better said, Chanters get really limited in their Phrase selection if you want to use stealth.  Particularly the mid-combat rogue stealth stuff. 

 

Right now, every class is viable.  Some subclasses have too steep a penalty (Wizard subs and possibly Mage Slayer).  At least IMHO.  Some combos don't work too well together, but that will always be the case with a MC system in a class based game.  I will say "That combo doesn't look too great", but then follow it up with general advice on how to best do it.  Because even though it might not be optimal... The person on the other end knows what they like better than I do.  Their enjoyment should always trump whether I like the combo or not.  I can't think of any example of a class I will say sucks in the present game, though. 

 

Just to let you know, I tend to build more thematic ideas than power builds, myself.  That is why I didn't lump myself in with the likes of Boeroer who likes making certain mechanics play off of one another.  Which is typical of the Power Builder.  I look for little synergies too, but I like to have a theme more so.  My current play through is a Herald (Kind Wayfarer/Troubadour) that is all fire and healing.  Basically, I do fire damage via FoD, Mith Fyr, and an upgraded Rejoice.  I do healing via FoD, Ancient Memory, Lay on Hands, and that same upgraded Rejoice.  Later I will have Sacred Immolation, and a few other things to add in some silliness.  Healing Through Fire.  Which is unironically the name of the Album I was listening to earlier today when I was thinking about trying a Herald.  Will it be OP?  Well, yeah, it is Deadfire lol.  However, I don't think it will be any more OP than some of the stupidly OP builds I have seen on here. 

[drchocapic]

My tank doesn't even really need that stuff and I can still go get a coffee...

 

Exactly, I don't even use shields and heavy armour anymore and my tank is still pretty much unkillable without any support. They need to take a hard look at skills before they even start retuning equipment.

 

The real issue at the moment is that you have five difficulty settings to choose from if you want to be overpowered but none if you want a challenge or even a fair fight once you reach level 15+.

[Lokithecat]

 

The real issue at the moment is that you have five difficulty settings to choose from if you want to be overpowered but none if you want a challenge or even a fair fight once you reach level 15+.

 

 

That's the problem in a nutshell, how do you balance the entire game / system, so that its playable at low levels, and still challenging at high levels.  A lot of the PoE 1 stuff I've looked at, for 'difficult' options (Triple crown, etc) involve avoiding everything / abusing mechanics (figurines) until you've levelled enough that you stomp everything.

 

Even if they did manage to perfectly tune everything, someone's going to find a way to get around the curve, and end up stomping through everything anyway.  Is a fight with 8 guys balanced and challenging... great... how is that same fight going to be a challenge if you can draw off people, so that it becomes a series of fights against 2 guys.

 

Add in Multiclass, where you might be facing level 18 content with level 15 abilities (from 2 different classes admittedly) and try to balance it with someone that specializes in X and has the higher level abilities to magnify it.  Then there's the fact that with multiclass you need to make sure that a) does a class have any game breaking ability / combos  and b)  do any of the other classes abilities break the game when paired with them.  As an example, the Monk 'I go invisible and hit everyone' skill is neat (and too high level to be a multiclass problem) but when higher cap comes out with the expansions, an Assassin using that will kill everything.  [Whispers of the Wind, 10m range, 10m Jump range, Target + 5 Foes].  And it is fueled by Wounds, so Shattered Pillar, infinite backstab everyone.

 

After all that, there is still the core difference (compared to Poe 1) of being able to use (almost) everything on a per encounter basis versus per rest.

[omgFIREBALLS]

That's the problem in a nutshell, how do you balance the entire game / system, so that its playable at low levels, and still challenging at high levels.  A lot of the PoE 1 stuff I've looked at, for 'difficult' options (Triple crown, etc) involve avoiding everything / abusing mechanics (figurines) until you've levelled enough that you stomp everything.

After all that, there is still the core difference (compared to Poe 1) of being able to use (almost) everything on a per encounter basis versus per rest.

Paragraphs 2 and 3 (edited out), you have some good points, especially the multiclass mess. I hope we don't get a higher level cap. As it stands, we barely get to play at max level. There isn't much content left by the time you've reached it. So, I'd like to not get a raised level cap in the DLC's. Fun as the new combos might be, I'm just not interested in seeing the arms race between PL 8-9 multiclass combos and PL 10-11 abilities. Rather keep the cap at 20, which, as I said, we barely get to do much at right now.

 

Anyway, balance low levels and high? The obvious answer is you give monsters more abilities as they gain levels too, and better gear. If this isn't enough to compensate for player ingenuity to the degree that it's still a general challenge, then give them unfair stats. That's the general concept of high end PvE; monsters have unfair advantages that the player has to overcome through minmax and creativity.

 

Last paragraph - I would NOT hold that against Deadfire balance. For starters, per rest is almost always a convenience thing in PoE1. In most situations you have the option to go back to Gilded Vale and rest for free between encounters. Of course we don't want to endure the loading screens and walking, but if there was a button for "head to the nearest inn, rest in the cheapest room, and head back", and the time passed and the coin was spent with the press of that button, how meaningful would camping supplies be? Per encounter is better.

 

As for the opening post. I see the issues. I just wanted to chime in that while I can see disabling certain stacking possibilities being a solution, I'm really happy with some changes between the games here. For starters inspirations and afflictions, which make buff/debuff stacking rules simple to me and hopefully to most players. And then there's item stacking, which currently seems to have no restrictions. Let me tell you before we dabble further here that I have seen plenty of

 

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in my character sheets PoE1 and I do not long for it to return at all.

[JiggleFloyd]

Since when does a game balance for solo? If they do, props to them, but we shouldn't expect this.

 

You can just make the argument that these are OP items in general, because they are, with exception to the 5 engage one, which is unlikely to happen all the time in solo play if you just go into a choke point. Or is it 'threatened' and not engaged?

Edited May 26, 2018 by JiggleFloyd

[dunehunter]

The problem is they all stack together, only one of them won't make the game unbalanced. But with all these together, you made an immortal tank.

[omgFIREBALLS]

Since when does a game balance for solo? If they do, props to them, but we shouldn't expect this.

We're on the wrong end of that spectrum. If solo is too hard, sure they can say, we never meant for this game to be soloed, we're not balancing with that in mind, but good for you if you can pull it off. Right now solo is too easy. Do you imagine that means party isn't even easier?

[Maxzero]

 

The other people on this forum that are the power builders will be here in 6 months making builds. They will answer questions for those that come late to the Deadfire party. They will keep this forum alive for a few years, but only if they find a challenge in order to justify those builds. The PoE forums stayed pretty active for such a small title. It is all on the shoulders of those folks, and it is good for new players to have a place to look for advice. It is wise to ensure they still have that challenge in Deadfire. As that is why they will be here in 6 months, or a year, or 5 years. PoE1 was a small but active community, and Deadfire needs to be the same.

I agree wholeheartedly.

 

I (for example) will not post any build as long as the game is in such an unbalanced state. It's ok for now and for my first playthrough because atm the story is the most important thing. But for long term investment to happen it needs to be more balanced. A lot more.

 

 

I am currently playing Kingmaker Pathfinder beta. It's buggy and incomplete (as you would expect) but even in this state the challenge and class building is a fair bit more interesting then Deadfire at the moment.

 

I would love to come back and play more Deadfire but without the challenge its kinda boring.

Edited May 26, 2018 by Maxzero

[Kaylon]

The problem is they all stack together, only one of them won't make the game unbalanced. But with all these together, you made an immortal tank.

I don't agree. In PoE1 the paladin was able to reach the same kind of defenses and nobody found that OP... What is OP is the fact that every class is able to hit easily the dragon for 100-200dmg...

 

PS. In fact in Deadfire you don't even need high defenses - you need just high armor+high penetration and then you can out-damage any enemy in the game...

Edited May 26, 2018 by Kaylon