Gromnir

^This^ Well except that I'd make an Orlan from Aedyr who'd have a 2 Strength and a 20 Resolve. At low levels you might be autoattacking with a Wizard but as you gain levels you gain a lot of spells. At level nine, which is not exactly high level, you get nine spell casts - two 1st level, two 2nd level, two 3rd level, two 4th level and one 5th level. You get these for every encounter. It will be few encounters that see you go Winchester on spells and I don't see how higher levels and more spells will lead to a different situation. well, you might wanna choose mountain dwarf or coastal aumaua instead, 'causes chances are your fort saves, which come up frequent in poe and the deadfire beta, is gonna be abysmal... although the link 'tween afflictions and saves is not direct. for example, may need to make a fort save 'gainst a poison or suffer a perception or dex affliction. am suspecting obsidian is gonna be getting feedback 'bout how lethal is some enemies and afflictions just as happened with mind zorkers in poe. "what the hell is wrong with obsidian? i get grazed by a fampyr or dank spore and it's a near certain party wipe. this needs to be fixed!" "my will save? what does that matter? my high strength and 3 resolve naked-and-wielding-an-exceptional-estoc-rogue gets grazed by domination or charm and promptly kills all the casters in my party, and then eder 2-shot auto attacks the rogue and everybody but the tank is dead. fix this." HA! Good Fun!

reposting: not a bug per se (or is it?) but is there a reason holy meditation has only a ten second duration? seems a little odd given the durations o' other priestly inspirations. oversight or intentional? HA! Good Fun!

prone were nerfed, but pull works great. too bad our multiclass unbroken beta tanks can't get the improved version o' pull... lower the guard or somesuch? does crush damage, can pull outta or into aoe, interrupts, dazes (which also lowers foe ap by 5) and also reduces foe ar by TEN. HA! Good Fun! ps am thinking we misunderstand afflictions or had a bug, 'cause our wood elf monk, suffering no other afflictions, were paralyzed. were thinking paralysis were the 3rd tier o' dex afflictions. a wood elf would at worst gets immobilized, yes? hobbled<immobilized<paralyzed, correct? wily step lowers paralysis to immobilized, no?

in the recent twitch, josh did mention obsidian were specific addressing the cast times o' a few priest spells, particular given how such spells is intended, in part, to counter afflictions. may not get lengthening o' duration for all such spells, but we expect reduced cast times for at least a few inspirations/protections. even so, holy meditation strikes us as a particular outlier insofar as durations is concerned. HA! Good Fun!

not a bug per se, but is there a reason holy meditation has only a ten second duration? seems a little odd given the durations o' other priestly inspirations. HA! Good Fun!

nice list. ours would have much in common, but would definite include high noon and the wild bunch. HA! Good Fun!

in-n-out appears to be coming to colorado. https://www.foodbeast.com/news/in-n-out-colorado/ a reason to visit colorado again... well, other than the scenic vistas and excellent outdoor sports. ... will probable wait for an in-n-out to open. HA! Good Fun!

general observation: whatever else deadfire fails at, a lack o' synergies is not one o' them. monks, in particular, is providing a dizzying array o' possibilities... particular with shattered pillar and helwaker subclasses. the lack o' unarmed proficiency is understandable given how borderline op a few monk builds is already. a helwalker sage who takes eldritch aim, infuse with vital essence, mirrored image, and eventual takes stuff such as ironskin, llengraths safeguard and citzal's(sp?) spirit lance is gonna be an absolute dps terror on the battlefield. converse, a paladin or unbroken fighter combined with shattered pillar is having amazing potential as an off-tank or even main tank. in addition to the 'bove, have personal combined and tested monks with rogue, barbarian and cipher as well as our personal most tested multiclass: the contemplative. am thinking folks has not had enough time to realize just how many options deadfire makes possible, which makes sense given how little time the relative small number of beta testers has actual had with deadfire. too many conclusions. HA! Good Fun!

from our pov, the removal o' grazes woulda' done as you suggest, but grazes weren't removed... not really. am not certain game would be better w/o grazes, but would be cleaner. however, the reality is you current have deadfire grazes even w/o the forthcoming beta build changes. fighters, for example, may choose to add graze capability via talents, and casting of dire blessing by a priest gives everybody affected by the buff graze capability. 'course the reason why dire blessing is so useful at the moment is exact why it were removed. grazes for most weapon users adds damage, but nothing game changing. on the other hand, a party caster affected by dire blessing gets his/her grazes back too, and serious debilitating afflictions do graze. six seconds o' graze domination or petrification or whatnot is nevertheless quite powerful when the alternative is a complete miss. return grazes and that means enemies with their own hard cc and afflictions is gonna once again be serious trouble for a party. stun-locked party? yeah, the afflictions mechanic, once folks figure out how to use it, will help prevent the pain o' enemy hard cc/affliction grazes. longer cast times also means now useful interrupts will be vital. mechanics is evolving. nevertheless, the pivotal complaint which caused the removal o' grazes would seem to be in danger o' making a return... which is why we asked josh the question. obsidian is aware o' the problems. were our main concern. HA! Good Fun!

fixed well, anticipatory fix. the strength and resolve change is gonna alter who benefits most from athletics. is kinda the reverse (but not really) o' the muscle wizard complaints. the builds gaining most benefit from athletics will be casters... and tanks. high resolve is gonna see most benefit. 'course, a caster with 1 athletics and high resolve will get far less use from second wind than a barbarian with high strength and 10 points in athletics. could be josh's personal biases as a skinny cyclist impacting game mechanics? am kidding. even so, second wind will be a heal effect as 'posed to weapon damage. as such one presumes the chief beneficiaries o' heightened athletics will be wizards, and priests and tanks. HA! Good Fun! edit: am gonna note how w/o the inherent skill bonuses for classes, the idea o' providing skill boosts for stats bothers us far less. a high perception wizard is perfect viable, so turning your wizard into the party mechanic is not difficult to imagine. heck, with the new strength attribute, perhaps athletics gets tied to strength and thus your melee wizard builds will get a boost to help compensate for the switch of healing effects bonuses from might to resolve. is easy enough to come up with builds for any class which will be effective and are able to utilize a wide array o' stat distributions... regardless o' what one reads in a few other threads. however, the inherent class bonuses result in a kinda double-whammy against customization. if we make a cipher and don't want a rogue in our party, chances are we is gonna use the cipher for mechanics, which with your suggested stat based skill modifiers encourages us to put points in perception. even so, 'cause o' the wide range o' possible stats any class might benefit from in deadfire, we would be far more willing to embrace the stats based skill modifier idea if we didn't already have anachronistic class-based skill modifiers.

will be interesting to see how grazes is returned, 'cause the "hard cc" issue would obvious remain if all that is done is changing the window of opportunity for those grazes. HA! Good Fun!

And I'm the opposite. Muscle wizards are a cool aspect of how the PoE world works. I'd be sad to see them go. we like might as it is. we don't like resolve as it is. given our preferred character type is melee capable casters, the change should have a particular deleterious impact 'pon us. have almost a dozen variations o' helwalker/caster we were testing. helwalker/priest of eothas clear ain't a powergamer build, but the might build made for both admirable weapon damage and extreme impressive heals. the change to strength serious borks much o' the build flexibility... or it would if Gromnir were worried 'bout extreme optimization. 15,10,10,13,16,14 the change has us likely flipping resolve and might/strength scores 14,10,10,13,16,15 or perhaps 10,10,10,15,17,16 even four or five points o' might/strength, when viewed from perspective of a geared mid or high level character, is significant, but hardly game altering. *shrug* as a player who don't optimize much and who has nevertheless completed numerous potd runs with the obsidian companions as 'posed to created hirelings, am believing poe character capabilities is far less a matter o' starting stats than it is 'bout power and talent choices... and gear. poe saw a few changes to stats. recall the functional halving o' the deflection bonus for resolve after release? *chuckle* the collective howl o' fandom were inspiring. shakespeare would be proud. most likely don't recall all the crippling stat changes from poe. a week or month will make this change equal forgettable... and it does help resolve. is also gonna be more changes, so is probable best to wait and see how the next release actual plays, 'cause resolve ain't being changed in a vacuum. HA! Good Fun!

That’s what backgrounds do, no? Giving you a head starts on certain skills based on your past. is the reason we suggested removing the class-based skill bonuses and actual enhancing the backgrounds to compensate. HA! Good Fun!

nothing odd at all 'bout our pov. from the start o' poe development, we noted the superiority o' a open and classless system. however, classless is not the way obsidian went. since we is stuck with classes, make the best class-based system is all we can hope for. however, as we has already noted elsewhere, the classes is already much distinct w/o any consideration o' skills. 'ccording to the lore, a rogue is not a d&d thief. what makes a rogue rougeish is their brutal fighting style... not picking pockets or opening locks. does an obsidian character benefit from adding inherent skill bonuses which limit development options? nope. classes is not ideal. josh's deadfire pnp is classless. is many advantages to classless. nevertheless, we is stuck with classes. don't compound class shortcomings by tightening the limits beyond the obvious combat qualities which necessarily must continue to be unique, insular and discrete. am complete consistent. classes suck, but we got 'em. https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/93359-list-of-things-to-improve-upon-in-poe-ii/?p=1933423 https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/66382-your-poe-pros-and-cons-5-and-5/?p=1461578 https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/91524-crazy-ideas-you-like-to-have-but-most-likely-not-get/?p=1882806 https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/67930-class-diversity-in-dd-vs-pe/?p=1507160 years o' agonizingly consistent posts 'bout classes and skills. HA! Good Fun!

as somebody who has complained 'bout having skill bonuses attached to classes, this suggestion makes the current skill situation worse, not better. your example o' rogue is particular enlightening as you reveal a typical rogue attribute spread. add another 2 points for mechanics, stealth, bluff, insight and streetwise? well gosh, what skills is a single class rogue with typical stat spread encouraged by the mechanics to select? functional reducing options. a paladin tank with predictable high intellect and resolve? same thing gonna happen as there will be clear advantageous skills to be choosing. and the notion that some classes Need more active skills is complete antithetical to what were intended 'ccording to the developers during poe development. is another reason why the stoopid inherent class skill bonuses shoulda' been dropped... surely don't want to add another layer o' d&d anachronisms into the mix. should be finding ways to open up skill choices rather than narrowing. best first step is removing the class skill bonuses and making the backgrounds more vital. HA! Good Fun!

the obsidians have made it clear the game is not balanced for solo play... and as already noted, the notion that a single party run should be able to successfully overcome any and all skill checks is suspect. you are s'posed to fail some checks. makes choosing skills much more important, no? HA! Good Fun!

would be funny if obsidian gave folks their tartar sauce, and then doubled-all skill check thresholds. HA! Good Fun!

agreed on wait 'fore resorting to more hair pulling and face rending. the numbers is not quite working as some folks believe 'em to be anyway. our +35 might helwalker monk builds, even when overcoming ar, is not doing game breaking melee damage. yeah, when taking advantage o' the limited situation where you are able to achieve self-replicating crits, the helwalker is producing insane numbers. even now, the practical difference 'tween the helwalker with starting might of 14 v. 18 is difficult to see via combat logs as one crit during an encounter more or less wipes out the actual numbers advantage. is also worth keeping in mind how in spite o' the s'posed huge impact o' might, most o' us ain't seeing our poe builds producing vast more damage in deadfire than they were in poe... save for dual wielding sabres (or whatever) and facing virtual no recovery. is not as if a 10 might cipher monk is capable o' doing less damage than they was in poe. 10 might cipher were capable o' doing ridiculous amounts o' hurt. the argument is an 18 might deadfire cipher is now capable o' doing vast more damage than were a 18 might poe cipher. is a much different thing when suggesting ciphers is somehow gimped by the change... and again, is not working as folks believe. if might were so essential, then everybody would be playing helwalker/_______, 'cause you functional start every combat encounter with +3 might. might be worth it if a few o' the folks complaining makes some helwalker/soul blade hybrids before might/resolve are altered. is fun builds, but is not performing as many here is imagining based on their assumptions 'bout might. HA! Good Fun!

as we noted when the change were initial announced, am preferring to see how the change(s) actual impact gameplay. all the face rending and wailing is entertaining (am not accusing you of such) but not particular constructive. even so, am admitting it is worth considering alternatives even at this point... at least as some kinda thought experiment. good luck with the efforts to build a better mousetrap. HA! Good Fun!

Yeah, the reactions on these forums are mild compared to that frigging nonsense. I'm not surprised, though. You should have been here during the PoE1 beta. Holy moly! I really hope this doesn't get to Josh too much, and that we get to try out the new changes for a while first. His backup plan for/with Concentration is interesting, but I'm sure there are other ways as well to make it all work. actually, am hoping it does get to josh. he kinda retreated from these boards 'cause o' the silliness you mentioned during poe development. no more developer feedback at the obsidian boards. well guess what? sa and other places ain't such a friendly sanctuary from the tumult? reasoning for abandoning the obsidian boards is less convincing. HA! Good Fun!

Yeah I have. Ciphers have basically three core roles: weapon damage, spell damage, and debuff/CC. Splitting the damage bonus between Str and Resolve means that ciphers are going to have to give up -- all else being equal and depending on stat spread, -- either about 20 to 24% of their weapon damage (if they drop Might to boost Res), about the same range of spell damage (if they drop Res to boost Might), or a corresponding loss to their CC ability by reducing their spell effect durations and areas (if they drop Int to keep Res and Might both topped off). There are other options also -- for example, as you point out, they can just not use the half of their power tree that does damage -- but if they do that they're surrendering a function (spell damage) that before this change they didn't have to surrender. They do get pick which class function they surrender but they have to surrender one of them. (Where "surrender" in this context means "take a 20% hit in effectiveness") That's presuming optimal play and stat allocation elsewhere and ignoring secondary effects (i.e., if Ciphers drop Might to boost Resolve, they'll lose focus gain in a corresponding proportion, etc.) Is not being able to have 18 STR AND 18 RES going to make it impossible to complete the game as a Cipher? 'course not, which is what makes this so sad. create a vanilla deadfire cipher with 14 might and 14 resolve. make certain to take body attunement when you are able. unless you do something odd, you are gonna have the best damage-dealer when dropped into the provided mercenary party. IF you insist on maximizing both power damage and weapon damage, which doesn't seem like a necessity unless you retreat to entitlement complaints, then you gotta make hard choices. looking at a level 1 comparison, (and lord only knows why you would do so) the 4 point difference might feel overwhelming if you have only bothered to ever play optimized stat speads. sure, for such complaints to be meaningful one must ignore the benefits from increased will and deflection as well, but by mid and later portions o' the game, 4 points is hardly punishing. and again, the argument were how with the resolve changes functional removing an obvious dump stat, the cipher can't get the job done. not our words. Grieving Mother. could grieving mother get the job done in poe? did you need force gimp yourself to keep her in your party? 'course not. is axiomatic, so am not certain why it need be said, but there shouldn't be any dump stats. make every stat choice hard should be the goal. every class should be as tough as cipher. cipher is the example o' the stats done right, not wrong. oh, and to the earlier comment from the doctor 'bout us obviously not having played much cipher... HA! am current at 94 hours o' beta, and 'bout half the time we got a cipher in our party. spent much time making hybrid builds, but honest, for cipher, chanter and wizard, am finding vanilla is our preferred way to play. lack o' grazes, penetration, casting/recovery times is not changes to the cipher per se, and they is all current easily marginalized. as we noted 'bove, one o' our favorite cipher approaches is the great sword wielder. horrible penetration, but with body attunement, expose vulnerabilities, and/or a chanter, penetration is not a problem... albeit is too essential. grazes? first cast from a priest is dire blessing. problem solved. again, is too vital, but is not a current limitation to making an effective cipher. etc. regardless, we got plenty o' time with a cipher, most o' whom has identical stat spreads as we is testing how we would actual play'em in deadfire at release. 15,10,10,13,16,14. is not only viable but is highly effective. y'know how the change to resolve affects us? not at all. HA! Good Fun!

you haven't as yet shown how ciphers need give up any kinda class role... but thanks for being honest and revealing this as another nostalgia/entitlement issue. you haven't provided math to prove their ineffectiveness in light o' a change, that is for sure. if a deadfire cipher starts with a 14 strength instead of benefiting from an 18 might, then yeah, you will see less weapon damage. such does not mathematical show how the 14 strength cipher is boned/unable to fill roles/whatever. just as grieving mother were hardly prevented from fulfilling any critical cipher role with her 11 might, a few points shaved from a starting cipher's deadfire strength is only giving up critical class role if you are ridiculous attached to optimized builds you created in poe. and Gromnir is not some kinda willpower master who plays horribly gimped builds just to prove a point. our garbage priest stat build were chosen 'cause it were effective. we have, more than once, chastised the rp purists who seem to suggest games need be punishing, or some such nonsense. our current deadfire vanilla cipher, with 15 might and 14 resolve is highly efficacious. if she were sucky, we woulda' been complaining... as we has already complained 'bout so many other things. am s'posing in addition to our towering willpower, which allows us to muscle numerous horribly gimped builds through potd runs, we is also a zen master who quietly accepts whatever game is put in front o' us? anybody who has had even a tiny bit o' interaction with us on these boards is gonna dismiss such a characterization as fantastical hokum. meek acceptance from Gromnir? HA! Good Fun!

there will be needed changes. make limited changes to individual classes. is another good reason for keeping the classes discrete and insular. HA! Good Fun!

the current complaints remind us o' all the moaning 'bout poe companion stats. durance and grieving mother were complete ineffective... according to folks in the poe beta. so Gromnir builds priests and ciphers with exact same complete garbage stats o' durance and grieving mother... and roll-stomped our way through innumerable poe beta runs. oh, and as we noted in the other thread (these overlapping threads is giving us a headache) poe grieving mother had 11 might and 10 resolve. in new deadfire, giving her a slight bonus, she would have equivalent strength and resolve o' 11. try and tell us how grieving mother were an ineffective cipher in our many potd runs. in any event, the complaints is utter ridiculous for obvious reason they hinge o' the change o' resolve from dump stat to useful. ... obvious dump stats is the problem. resolve as a dump stat is having its own thread generating complaints. so resolve is no longer a dump stat for many builds and sudden we got wails and moans aplenty. ... on rare occasions we feel sorry for developers. in any event, the resolve "fix" will have consequences unintended and unacceptable for any number o' classes... which is another reason why keeping the classes insular and discreet is so useful. can fix a few o' the 11 classes on an individual basis. small changes ad hoc which will remain limited. HA! Good Fun!

the math being shown is not actual in-game performance. yes, you will do less power damage if you do not raise resolve, and the resolve gotta come from somewhere, so chances are your power damage decreases. this is the same nostalgia nonsense as the talents thread. compare to what you could do pre-change or pre-deafire is silly feel/nostalgia. use math to actual show ineffectiveness current in deadfire. dare you. can self gimp by not taking piercing weapons and not taking piercing talent. can act as if the cipher exists solo w/o a party. actual in-game numbers is gonna show you quite clear how a deadfire cipher can get the job done. half the cipher powers is damage dealers? great. that means the other half ain't. use body attunement then pull out your modal enhanced greatsword affected by the cipher's increased penetration talent. chunk. chunk. chunk. you not need ever use a damage power if you feel incapable o' building a cipher with higher resolve. but if you do decide you want weapon and power damage, then we got two words for those who says the new resolve means a cipher can't get the job done: grieving mother https://pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/Grieving_Mother played in deadfire, grieving mother would be almost identical efficacious. tell us you can't manage to build a deadfire cipher with a 12 in strength and resolve? how many o' us had grieving mother top party damage totals on potd runs? only meaningful changes to cipher mechanics for deadfire is not actual cipher mechanics: penetration and casting time/recovery. so build another grieving mother and give her penetrating weapons... and tell us how she don't get the job done. but it won't be the same as your poe cipher, right? *snort* HA! Good Fun! ps we specific used greatsword example 'cause two-handed weapons is one o' the few groups working properly at the moment. woulda' been unfair o' us to use dual wielding sabres or somesuch.