Gromnir

well at least we have dropped the silly notion that 'cause a summoned weapon replaces equipped it should, by default, last as long as the fight. good. and it seems as if this is no longer a generalized summoned weapons concerns thread as most seem to admit spiritual priest weapons is somewhere 'tween good and op and the other summoned weapons is either situational useful or need be nerfed a bit. good. is now simple a matter o' firebrand? maybe change the thread title? regardless, is nice to see progress. good. gonna ignore the misrepresentation o' firebrand advantages by jk other than to say he might wanna ask boeroer why bittercut were so efficacious in poe... and why durance's staff were less so. we will note 2% guestimate by boeroer sounds a bit hyperbolic. heck, two o' the dragons in poe were particular vulnerable to burn damage, not to mention the numerous primordials, spirits, troll, and constructs. if a smallish lash (not the 50 or 60% nonsense) were added to firebrand, am doubting it would be game breaking, particular as the spell duration could be reduced a bit as a kinda balance. other than a few boss fights, a 60 second base duration is largely wasted. feels like progress. HA! Good Fun!

as seems to be the increasing common case, Gromnir is looking at this opportunity a bit different than others posting. we would like obsidian to come up with intriguing builds/concepts for multiclasses which we do not have much interest in playing. "i hadn't thought of that." get a new pov on multiclasses which intrigue us little. wizard/chanter wizard/priest priest/cipher druid/cipher cipher/chanter surprise us with nifty, and preferable non-melee combat, iterations o' the 'bove. am well aware how with with op priestly spiritual weapons it is possible to make a wizard/priest build which does consistent high damage. don't bother with such. surprise us. HA! Good Fun!

"hearing" a silent gif? https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/how-can-you-hear-silent-gif-180967491/ HA! Good Fun!

Sure, that's a fair comparison. But druid spiritshift forms. . .are instant-cast, right? (I haven't bothered to try a druid in Deadfire yet). And they give really big bonuses, in exchange for short durations? If they gave milder bonuses, they'd need longer durations . . . am wondering if you are actual responding to our posts. in any event, sounds as if you are simple quibbling 'bout the appropriate length o' the cast and the duration o' the spell. firebrand lasts 4x as long as spirit shift. in any event, is no more analogizing to weapon switch. congrats. baby steps. HA! Good Fun! ps clarification: firebrand is 4x the duration o' spiritshift, but base spiritshift duration is only 15 seconds... firebrand is 60.

A summoned weapon really isn't a spell, though. It doesn't target anything, it doesn't *do* anything, until you attack with it like a weapon. Functionally it's equivalent to an extra weapon set, not a spell or a buff. Think about it this way: something like Arcane Shield operates as a buff on top of your currently equipped gear. It doesn't replace your currently equipped shield. If there were a spell that summoned an equippable shield, yeah, the spell should either have an instant cast and be level equivalent -- with some sort of nice bonus effect to justify the cast -- or if long-cast / short duration, be markedly better than other level-equivalent gear. dear lord. yeah, it's a weapon, which you gain at level-up rather than through 1007ing or purchase and bring into being for a limited period of time via caster spell mechanics, after which it disappears... just like other equipped weapons? as beoroer notes, the functional weapon switch you is analogizing to can be interrupted... 'cause it is manifesting through the mechanics o' Spell Casting. furthermore, unlike equipables, the summons can't be upgraded and is only useable by a single class... save for in the case o' firebrand, which is showing up on both druid and priest o' eothas list. so, two. can't pass the firebrand to a fellow party "long enough to last the entire fight," can you? etc. trying to analogize to actual weapons is swell and all, but am not seeing the point. is not an equipable weapon. is a per-encounter power gained at level-up. ... closer analogy for you would be druid spirit shift, no? functional you actual get armour and weapons with special qualities, though they ain't visible in inventory. shift for druid is instantaneous... and lasts 20 seconds. HA! Good Fun!

for a second level slot? sure. greatswords do slash/pierce. if Gromnir is current stuck with a slash/pierce weapon ''gainst a foe with high slash/pierce armour (which given the greatsword's less than stellar armour penetration is likely) am gonna frequent be thankful we got the firebrand with burn/pierce and is a weapon with scaling magical quality which counts as a free weapon slot and has a duration of +80 seconds for a "caster" with good intellect. thanks to some o' the complainers, Gromnir, if he wants to have useful greatsword proficiency, will now likely have to take multiple talents as 'posed to just one... so am gonna want as much use from greatswords as possible. so, yeah, it is well-balanced as it has a high chance o' being useful when your other greatsword/weapons would be rendered useless or o' little use 'cause o' insufficient armour penetration or when you don yet eben have a magical greatsword. is a per encounter option, so gonna be able to use these more often than poe counterparts. oh, and one reason why bittercut were so effective in poe were precise 'cause it were corrode/slash-- is the primary reason it were so effective. more than a few poe builds in the poe builds thread is based 'round aquisition o' bittercut. sneer at such a quality in this place when lauding elsewhere is a bit hypocritical, eh? sure, you won't be able to durgan's steel a firebrand, but it is a second level druid spell for chrissakes. for levels 1-10, we believe firebrand and the other summoned weapons we has seen is perfectly acceptable... with the recognition a few is bugged or too powerful. firebrand ain't near as bad as you suggest, and if Gromnir has greatsword proficiency, then yeah, am thinking it is a reasonable option to be choosing firebrand, but only if we need consider levels 1-10. past early and mid levels, if deadfire 1007 keeps pace with poe progression, firebrand and concelhaut's staff will be relegated to relative pointlessness. we has noted repeated how opposite o' what jk suggested, is at high levels when the early summons is gonna suffer by comparison. unless as part o' the scaling scheme something is added beyond the level we are playing, am suspecting folks will likely exploit respec to dump 'em. refrain in this thread is little more than poe summoned weapons are better than deadfire versions. some poe summons were silly powerful and would be game breaking when wielded by a deadfire paladin/_______ or berserker/________. as long as the summons maintain rough quality parity and add one additional facet not readily available to the player, am thinking they is a win choice. regardless, a spell with one o' the longest durations possible needs instacast? *chuckle* HA! Good Fun!

there is many a cautionary tale 'bout the granting o' wishes. genie in the lamp. monkey's paw. etc. grant wish and make instacast, but then reduce extreme long duration to put more in line with other spells? I don't really follow what you're saying here re: "wishing." All the spells need numerous balance changes to durations, cast times, effects, etc. right now., and yeah, there's an obvious bug with the lashes boosting weapon damages and I don't think anyone's saying that should persist. That said, i'm not sure why the duration of the summoned weapon particularly matters. "Long enough to last the whole fight" seems reasonable if it's otherwise equivalent to an appropriate-for-level found weapon. If it's better, then maybe shorter duration makes sense. *Regardless* though it should be an instant-cast because . . . it's a melee weapon, you have to cast it then attack with it. If it's roughly equivalent with other found items (as I *think* you're arguing for) then a fast cast time and a very long duration would both be indicated, in order to maintain that parity. With longer cast times than "instant" or shorter durations than "the whole fight," it's no longer equivalent to a found item, so you'd need to give the weapon a comparative boost in effectiveness to balance that out. so a spell which creates the equivalent o' a magical shield should get a shorter duration than a summoned magic weapon? reason? any buff or debuff or weapon enhancement or pretty much anything other than damage producing spells and cleanses, could be utilizing the same "long enough for the whole fight" reason. hardly convincing. is perfect reasonable that a spell with a long duration should have a longer cast time. spells which does huge relative damage should also have longer cast times. it's a spell. compare to equippable weapons is specious, particular as the summoned weapons is counting as an additional free weapon set. these is now per-encounter abilities. thank goodness. idiotic vancian casting meant that other than rest spam, you had to hoard your low-level casting opportunities 'tween rest. balancing nightmare as a caster, particular at high levels, were far more powerful immediate following a rest. weak low level. strong high. other than boss fights, is no reason a poe developer should be believing a caster had immediate rested. balance encounters with vancian casters is obvious is more difficult. converse, in deadfire we can use spiritual weapons or firebrand or spirit lance every encounter from the moment we acquire the power. the amount o' time a player o' less than level 10+ is functional able to utilize these summoned weapons 'tween rests has increased dramatically 'tween poe and deadfire. so yeah, an increased cast time for a per-encounter Spell with an extreme long duration is unreasonable because? HA! Good Fun!

there is many a cautionary tale 'bout the granting o' wishes. genie in the lamp. monkey's paw. etc. grant wish and make instacast, but then reduce extreme long duration to put more in line with other spells? at the moment the priest weapons is doing too much damage and is bugged-- the lash effect is being added to spell damage as well. with few found weapons in the beta to compare, the priest weapons is clear winners, which is just wrong. am suspecting there will be changes, but as much as folks like priest weapons and hate the rest o' summoned, the current glaring problem is with the priestly spiritual weapons. oh, and for the firebrand haters, am suspecting if half o' the enemies in the beta were constructs and trolls, people would no doubt be impressed by the firebrand. am suspecting deadfire will have a similar % o' fire weak enemies as did poe, which will make the firebrand much more effective than some folks imagine. situational very powerful. good. HA! Good Fun!

true. given how limited is the power selection for all classes, found/1007 wizard grimoires is a major, if unpredictable, advantage. a subsequent deadfire run will amplify the benefits o' the grimoires as metaknowledge will allow for more tailored power selection. HA! Good Fun!

am suspecting there will be numerous druid/caster combos which will be effective. have not tried such ourself, but as accuracy is no longer dramatic differing 'tween classes, one can see how a few wizard spells would be highly useful to a druid focused on shifting, and if a priest eventual gets minor avatar... HA! Good Fun!

additional benefit nobody has mentioned: summoned weapons is Not equipped. first playthrough o' deadfire, and absent metaknowledge, being able to summon a weapon which does a different kinda damage than weapons you current have equipped is functional a free weapon set. is no small thing particular in light of deadfire's penetration scheme. keep in mind, most people only play games such as deadfire once, if they finish at all. HA! Good Fun!

agreed. have a summoned weapon which equals equipable weapons is advantageous in and of itself, particular at lower levels. if bob the warlock is equipping concelhaut's staff, then pallegina can be using the greatsword, justice. also, those who cannot see how the summoned weapons with their unique qualities will be situational highly efficacious is revealing a stunning lack o' imagination. each weapon has qualities which will come in handy with some frequency... and considering the duration o' the summoned weapons, the casting time issue strikes us as illusory. once again some has the problem reversed. IF a summoned weapon were a no-brainer choice for a power slot, then there would be a problem. situational high use and rough parity with equippable should be the goal. even so, am admitting we don't see how such weapons genuine keep pace with equippable weapons, even with the quality scaling. is the monk fists problem. HA! Good Fun!

Not weird at all. Alita looks like she does in the manga. am thinking it is a given that the manga is highly stylized. not photorealistic. maintaining such a manga ascetic for a single character is... odd. is jarring. is a curious choice. now imagine how folks would react if vector looked like he does in the manga? "weird" would be the most diplomatic criticism one would expect. HA! Good Fun!

Exactly. What else you read into it is up to you. I want them to be effective in Deadfire because they are fun abilities. Despite what you claim, the non-Priest summonables are not currently Exactly. "specific demand increase base damage? no, but lamenting the surfeit effectiveness o' such weapons precise 'cause o' absence o' increased damage." btw, parse quotes is a childish kinda misrepresentation. HA! Good Fun!

Funny thing is I didn't even say their base damage should be increased in the thread I started on them, just that they (the Wizard summonables as well as Firebrand) are currently weak. *chuckle* first paragraph "In Pillars of Eternity one of the defining features of the various Wizard summoned weapons (Concelhaut's Parasitic Staff, Citzal's Spirit Lance etc.) was their higher than normal base damage (Concelhaut's Staff had a base damage of 20-30 vs 14-20 for a normal Quarterstaff). This made all +Damage modifiers (in particular Might) that bit more powerful for them. In Deadfire they have the same base damage as their non-summoned versions." specific demand increase base damage? no, but lamenting the surfeit effectiveness o' such weapons precise 'cause o' absence o' increased damage. misrepresentation indeed. edit: couple more... for fun "The thing is, in PoE the thing that made it good wasn't really the draining (though that was nice), it was the high damage and accuracy bonus." "Yeah, Firebrand really relied on its high base damage to be good." HA! Good Fun!

[rayofsunshine]Things can always get worse [/rayofsunshine] we got a bit o' pith we borrowed from our sister and use almost daily: "at least i'm not on fire." am finding there is few situations, no matter how dire or hopeless, which makes being set ablaze a desirable alternative. even so, we do see tarantino as a curious choice for a star trek movie. sure, star trek has adopted more violence since tos days, but tarantino camp levels o' gore do not correspond with our expectations, and am thinking nobody will ever mistake tarantino for utopian. didn't actual read the linked article, but perhaps if tarantino did a kinda tangential star trek movie? not kirk and spock, but something insular and limited? a federation rescue attempt o' a ________ ambassador goes horribly wrong? whatever is federation equivalent o' a special forces team realizes/suspects they were set up to fail from the start and... *shrug* am thinking tangential makes more sense for tarantino than does anything dealing with enterprise and the core cast. HA! Good Fun!

"In the hands of a druid firebrand was nowhere near highly effective. In fact it was pretty bad." yeah, complete misrepresentation. *chuckle* sometimes folks say silly things and not realize how silly such is 'til somebody else identifies. HA! Good Fun! ps (edit) regardless o' jk's misrepresentations, the summoned weapons from poe allowed casters to, in conjunction with proper talent selections and spell layering, approach or exceed the martial power of other classes. to maintain the same dynamic in deadfire, wherein multiclass selection allows for a plethora o' options for equalling or exceeding the weapon powha o' any single class, maintaining the superiority o' summoned weapons is a highly suspect approach.

and no doubt the spirit lance needs its base damage increased, yes? HA! Good Fun!

for the most part we liked the psych tv series, but hated the shawn spencer character... which made it tough to like psych. liked gus and corbin bernsen and lassiter. shawn were too... d0uchey. am thinking we didn't get through more than 1/2 of season one. we did watch godless on netflix. not certain how we feel 'bout it. overall we enjoyed, but frequent it devolved into kinda camp levels o' silliness, and we weren't certain if such excesses were intentional. even so, the cast were excellent and we enjoyed the almost tarantino levels o' violence, so were worth our time. dunno, we enjoyed godless enough but somehow felt as if it wasted potential. HA! Good Fun!

the poe druid with appropriate talents were quite effective with a firebrand. any weapon focus, 2h weapon talent, scion of flame, savage attacks ('cause by late in the game, accuracy bloat were ez to achieve) could make almost any class see considerable benefit from the firebrand. even so, you are arguing Gromnir's point w/o realizing. thanks. the poe firebrand were not cause for concern in the hands o' the caster class which summoned. were only an issue with other classes such as barbarian, rogue and paladin. is precise why deadfire is different. and again, your identification o' the problem is all bassackwards and reversed. particular at lower levels when you ain't gonna have a plethora o' 1007ed magical weapons in your inventory, being able to summon a scaling weapon with an additional quality is a significant advantage to overall party power. earlier in the game when you don't have many options for equipping your party, the summoned weapons is a nice alternative, and it means another party member can wield one o' the few shiny weapons you possess. makes your party stronger if the warlock not need equip the party's best magic weapon... give to rogue or fighter instead. and as between a fine flail and the spiritual weapon for priests o' eothas, our level 6-9 beta templar summons the flail almost every battle, and am not regretting the time to cast as the duration for spiritual weapons (firebrand has an even longer duration) is almost 1 minute with our high intellect. am less likely to use firebrand, but against foes with particular poor burn armour, the firebrand is equal impressive. but again, the actual problem for deadfire summoned weapons is high levels. the summoned weapons is good alternatives at lower levels, but scaling quality ain't enough to compensate for the use o' limited spell slots. oh and compare firebrand to tidefall reveals the wacky pov you got. tidefall were the best great sword in the base game. were superb quality and possessed multiple beneficial qualities. firebrand, on the other hand, were a universal weapon, summoned by a second level druid spell... available at level 3. hypothetical hiravias with peasant weapon focus would get weapon focus benefits for the firebrand. forgemaster gloves, which were a 3-per-rest item, were available cheap as soon as you reached defiance bay. poe firebrand also did big burn damage-- foes with high resistance to crush/pierce/slash were frequent weaker to burn. firebrand were an impressive weapon and were situationally dominating, but compare to the best great sword in the game and find it lacking? HA! with all the multiclass combinations, increasing the base damage o' summoned weapons seems ill-advised. is no reason summoned weapons should be clear superior to equippable alternatives. there will be times when the summoned provide advantages to equipped, but folks looking for you-win talents/powhaz is exact what obsidian has been trying to avoid. however, we do foresee a problem at higher levels. am not doubting the +12 level warlock will respec out o' concelhaut's staff unless the staff scales more than simple quality. is monk problem all over again. HA! Good Fun! ps as we mentioned in other threads, we do believe some aspect o' universal should be returned to summoned weapons. am not necessarily seeing need for proficiency being conferred with any universal, but for barbarian multiclasses with weapon focus or for devoted fighter penalties, we believe something akin to poe universal should apply.

the caster class inclusion in poe were troubled from the start. caster class spells were gonna be per-encounter, until board erupted with collected nerd rage demanding vancian casting. obsidian caved. in addition, the caster classes themselves were offering the least unique gameplay o' the 11 poe classes as what most differentiated 'em were simple the spell catalogs made available to the casters at level-up. sure, obsidian tried to make the classes unique by doing grimoire stuff for the wizards and shifting for the druids, but genuine gameplay differences 'tween the caster classes were limited. we wouldn't mind a less shifter driven subclass. rangers got a sans-companion subclass after all. however, shifting is the unique gameplay aspect druids bring to the table and casters is already offering limited uniqueness o' gameplay. am thus not surprised the subclasses focus on shifting... and is not as if one need take a subclass anyways. HA! Good Fun!

so the summoned weapons ain't clear superior to the kinda weapons a typical party is likely to be equipping themselves with? instead you got weapons with same damage as the base weapon being replicated, in addition to unique qualities such as the burn/pierce for firebrand or the draining o' concelhaut's staff (pointing out how the staff is current bugged and not draining is hardly relevant.) as well as scaling quality (i.e. fine-legendary.) ... what's the problem? in poe, with certain builds, the forgemaster glove's firebrand were ridiculous op. in the hands o' a druid, the poe firebrand were mere highly effective. what made the firebrand wacky powerful were it's use by barbarians or paladins or whatever build somebody concocted to take advantage o' the firebrands enormous base burn damage. in poe, all summoned weapons is now subject to the same silliness as were resulting from forgemaster gloves, 'cause now there is multiclassing. high base damage for poe summoned weapons were no doubt meant to balance out the lack o' weapon damage powhaz inherent to the caster classes. didn't work exact as planned 'cause o' eventual talent bloat, but the summoned weapons in the hands o' casters were not as powerful as they woulda' been if wielded by other classes with more dedicated weapon powhaz. deadfire multiclassing necessitated a change to summoned weapons. gotta balance citzal's lance not only for a wizard but for a frenzied berzerker under the influence o' infuse with vital essence, eldritch aim, and deleterious alacrity, who then unleashes his brutal blow power. summoned weapons aren't clear superior to weapons a party is likely to find as they adventure in the deadfire? good. however, am thinking jk actual has the potential problem reversed, 'cause at the moment summoned weapons will be able to maintain a rough parity with 1007 weapons for levels we has seen. legendary quality draining staff won't mean much when the weapon alternatives for a level 18 warlock will be similar legendary weapons with multiple unique powers. the draining staff will become only situational useful, and given the more limited spell repertoire o' casters, situational useful is not a wise choice for a spell slot. is similar to the poe monk problem regarding fists. regardless o' monk fist scaling, it were better for a monk to equip a weapon in the later portions o' poe. will be a similar issue for concelhaut's staff, unless the staff gain's additional powhaz as well as quality. HA! Good Fun!

have now played a number o' druid/monk combos and am confident 'bout calling bs regarding the suggestion o' lack o' druid/monk synergies. monk/druid synergies is fantastic. am actual preferring to go with vanilla monk when combined with druid. helwalker makes sense when combined with a lifegiver druid, but particular for longer battles, lifegiver is too constricting for us. nevertheless, we can see any number o' subclass combos as being effective. that said, we recent played through the ruins portion o' the game with multiple druid/monks, and we were much enjoying... inspite o' our self. druid, regardless o' their poe/deadfire efficacy, is thematic unappealing to us. perhaps 'cause we went to Cal and were surrounded by too many birkenstock bedecked druid wannabees who stank o' patchouli and never hesitated to share their opinions 'bout global warming and renewable energy and spotted owls? *groan* regardless, we do not gravitate to the druid class when making a pc. may seem like a small thing but both druid and monk and druid have alchemy in common. alchemy enhances potion use, so while atheletics is an obvious skill choice for any melee combatant, alchemy looks to be the real winner as one levels a bit. can functional start with 3 in alchemy depending on background choice. is a likely overlooked benefit. with the bear spirit shift, Gromnir gets an 11 armour rating, and at the moment such armour is conferring near invulnerability. druids got a number o' excellent cone spells, which we tend not to use often as our squishy casters is sitting behind tanks with wands and tower shields. cone spells is much more likely to be consistent useful when utilized by a front-liner such as our greasy storm bear. (am not one who ordinarily names builds, but such is what we call the bear ascetic we has been testing.) vile thorns is getting regular use from the greasy stom bear, in spite o' the small cone. nice sickened affliction conferred. 12,10,15,15,16,10. is not min-maxed, but is highly effective with corrode wild strike combining (synergizing) effective with the monk's lightning charged swift strikes. under the effect o' a priest's divine favor, am doing ridiculous high damage in bear form. cast returning storm at start o' combat is near as effective in deadfire as it were in poe. if our greasy storm bear does take damage and is too far away from a priest to get a restoration or holy radiance targeted on the greasy storm bear, the ascetic's own healing powers is arguable superior to the merc priest's anyways. unlike the priest, the druid has fewer affliction nullifiers in his/her repertoire, but 'tween monk's clarity o' agony and the quick conferred by swift strikes, a mountain dwarf, coastal aumaua or wild orlan is gonna be able to shrug off multiple afflictions... and a wood elf will laugh at any dex affliction targeting 'em. etc. am finding the greasy storm bear to be mild entertaining and thematic appealing in spite o' our tendency to be dismissive of druids. numerous synergies exist 'tween the ascetic classes and with other members o' the mercenary or custom parties. HA! Good Fun!

currently, sworn enemy/rival is not affecting (at the very least) priest spells and abilities when a templar targets a foe who has been marked. holy radiance and divine mark, for example, when utilized by a templar against a marked foe do not benefit from damage or accuracy bonuses. nothing in the description of sworn enemy/rival suggests the benefits is limited to weapon accuracy and damage. am assuming the paladin multiclass should benefit from spell accuracy and damage... or maybe not. is possible this ain't a bug but is only an ambiguity. as an aside, another quirky priest bug is resulting from the lash damage of spiritual weapons, such as the flail o' eothas, being applied to spell damage. a templar with a spiritual flail equipped will add corrode damage when utilizing the aforementioned divine mark. HA! Good Fun!

one o' the multiclasses we has had the most fun with is a goldpact knight/priest of eothas. is clear not a powergamer build. even so, the upcoming strength/might/resolve changes will have 0 impact 'pon the build. 12,10,15,15,16,10. weapon proficiencies is flail, club and greatsword. got another paladin in the party, so lack o' an aura is not an issue. the gold coat provides +4 ar, which at the moment is pretty keen even when wearing the fine chain or scale which is available in the beta without resorting to GiveItem. firebrand is doing considerable flame/pierce damage and with the greatsword modal, sworn rival and flames o' devotion active, it produces silly crit numbers-- is a better weapon than some suggest. 'course most o' the time we dual wield the summoned flail and a fine club. chunk. chunk. chunk. ... folks telling us the hybrid classes and ciphers "can't do the job," or other such nonsense is being ridiculous. melee combat numbers we got back from our templar is easily the best in a party o' a votary, skald, vanilla mage and vanilla priest... and is not a little bit better. with the club and flail modals, we can choose to lower will or reflex saves by 25 at our discretion... comes in mighty handy if we wanna use an empowered divine mark. priests typical have numerous spells which target will, but the priest o' eothas is gonna be getting more fire spells in the next build, fire spells which often target reflex. as such, even w/o considering damage output, the weapon choices come in handy. drawback: maintaining the devotions would be a bit o' a challenge in a real game. try and maximize rational, stoic, honest and benevolent all at the same time will take effort. we would much prefer a classless system. even so, am thinking folks is getting 'caught up in the math they see on the message boards w/o bothering to see the actual math in the combat logs. obsidian has provided more viable options than most is aware. and beyond the math, many 'o the s'posed gimped and crippled builds is not only highly effective, but fun. with our numerous tested templars and contemplatives we can play characters who is not only potent in weapon combat, but they is effective affliction killers and buffers... with the frequent empowered damage spell thrown into the mix for funsies. HA! Good Fun!