Gromnir

as we noted when the change were initial announced, am preferring to see how the change(s) actual impact gameplay. all the face rending and wailing is entertaining (am not accusing you of such) but not particular constructive. even so, am admitting it is worth considering alternatives even at this point... at least as some kinda thought experiment. good luck with the efforts to build a better mousetrap. HA! Good Fun!

Yeah, the reactions on these forums are mild compared to that frigging nonsense. I'm not surprised, though. You should have been here during the PoE1 beta. Holy moly! I really hope this doesn't get to Josh too much, and that we get to try out the new changes for a while first. His backup plan for/with Concentration is interesting, but I'm sure there are other ways as well to make it all work. actually, am hoping it does get to josh. he kinda retreated from these boards 'cause o' the silliness you mentioned during poe development. no more developer feedback at the obsidian boards. well guess what? sa and other places ain't such a friendly sanctuary from the tumult? reasoning for abandoning the obsidian boards is less convincing. HA! Good Fun!

Yeah I have. Ciphers have basically three core roles: weapon damage, spell damage, and debuff/CC. Splitting the damage bonus between Str and Resolve means that ciphers are going to have to give up -- all else being equal and depending on stat spread, -- either about 20 to 24% of their weapon damage (if they drop Might to boost Res), about the same range of spell damage (if they drop Res to boost Might), or a corresponding loss to their CC ability by reducing their spell effect durations and areas (if they drop Int to keep Res and Might both topped off). There are other options also -- for example, as you point out, they can just not use the half of their power tree that does damage -- but if they do that they're surrendering a function (spell damage) that before this change they didn't have to surrender. They do get pick which class function they surrender but they have to surrender one of them. (Where "surrender" in this context means "take a 20% hit in effectiveness") That's presuming optimal play and stat allocation elsewhere and ignoring secondary effects (i.e., if Ciphers drop Might to boost Resolve, they'll lose focus gain in a corresponding proportion, etc.) Is not being able to have 18 STR AND 18 RES going to make it impossible to complete the game as a Cipher? 'course not, which is what makes this so sad. create a vanilla deadfire cipher with 14 might and 14 resolve. make certain to take body attunement when you are able. unless you do something odd, you are gonna have the best damage-dealer when dropped into the provided mercenary party. IF you insist on maximizing both power damage and weapon damage, which doesn't seem like a necessity unless you retreat to entitlement complaints, then you gotta make hard choices. looking at a level 1 comparison, (and lord only knows why you would do so) the 4 point difference might feel overwhelming if you have only bothered to ever play optimized stat speads. sure, for such complaints to be meaningful one must ignore the benefits from increased will and deflection as well, but by mid and later portions o' the game, 4 points is hardly punishing. and again, the argument were how with the resolve changes functional removing an obvious dump stat, the cipher can't get the job done. not our words. Grieving Mother. could grieving mother get the job done in poe? did you need force gimp yourself to keep her in your party? 'course not. is axiomatic, so am not certain why it need be said, but there shouldn't be any dump stats. make every stat choice hard should be the goal. every class should be as tough as cipher. cipher is the example o' the stats done right, not wrong. oh, and to the earlier comment from the doctor 'bout us obviously not having played much cipher... HA! am current at 94 hours o' beta, and 'bout half the time we got a cipher in our party. spent much time making hybrid builds, but honest, for cipher, chanter and wizard, am finding vanilla is our preferred way to play. lack o' grazes, penetration, casting/recovery times is not changes to the cipher per se, and they is all current easily marginalized. as we noted 'bove, one o' our favorite cipher approaches is the great sword wielder. horrible penetration, but with body attunement, expose vulnerabilities, and/or a chanter, penetration is not a problem... albeit is too essential. grazes? first cast from a priest is dire blessing. problem solved. again, is too vital, but is not a current limitation to making an effective cipher. etc. regardless, we got plenty o' time with a cipher, most o' whom has identical stat spreads as we is testing how we would actual play'em in deadfire at release. 15,10,10,13,16,14. is not only viable but is highly effective. y'know how the change to resolve affects us? not at all. HA! Good Fun!

you haven't as yet shown how ciphers need give up any kinda class role... but thanks for being honest and revealing this as another nostalgia/entitlement issue. you haven't provided math to prove their ineffectiveness in light o' a change, that is for sure. if a deadfire cipher starts with a 14 strength instead of benefiting from an 18 might, then yeah, you will see less weapon damage. such does not mathematical show how the 14 strength cipher is boned/unable to fill roles/whatever. just as grieving mother were hardly prevented from fulfilling any critical cipher role with her 11 might, a few points shaved from a starting cipher's deadfire strength is only giving up critical class role if you are ridiculous attached to optimized builds you created in poe. and Gromnir is not some kinda willpower master who plays horribly gimped builds just to prove a point. our garbage priest stat build were chosen 'cause it were effective. we have, more than once, chastised the rp purists who seem to suggest games need be punishing, or some such nonsense. our current deadfire vanilla cipher, with 15 might and 14 resolve is highly efficacious. if she were sucky, we woulda' been complaining... as we has already complained 'bout so many other things. am s'posing in addition to our towering willpower, which allows us to muscle numerous horribly gimped builds through potd runs, we is also a zen master who quietly accepts whatever game is put in front o' us? anybody who has had even a tiny bit o' interaction with us on these boards is gonna dismiss such a characterization as fantastical hokum. meek acceptance from Gromnir? HA! Good Fun!

there will be needed changes. make limited changes to individual classes. is another good reason for keeping the classes discrete and insular. HA! Good Fun!

the current complaints remind us o' all the moaning 'bout poe companion stats. durance and grieving mother were complete ineffective... according to folks in the poe beta. so Gromnir builds priests and ciphers with exact same complete garbage stats o' durance and grieving mother... and roll-stomped our way through innumerable poe beta runs. oh, and as we noted in the other thread (these overlapping threads is giving us a headache) poe grieving mother had 11 might and 10 resolve. in new deadfire, giving her a slight bonus, she would have equivalent strength and resolve o' 11. try and tell us how grieving mother were an ineffective cipher in our many potd runs. in any event, the complaints is utter ridiculous for obvious reason they hinge o' the change o' resolve from dump stat to useful. ... obvious dump stats is the problem. resolve as a dump stat is having its own thread generating complaints. so resolve is no longer a dump stat for many builds and sudden we got wails and moans aplenty. ... on rare occasions we feel sorry for developers. in any event, the resolve "fix" will have consequences unintended and unacceptable for any number o' classes... which is another reason why keeping the classes insular and discreet is so useful. can fix a few o' the 11 classes on an individual basis. small changes ad hoc which will remain limited. HA! Good Fun!

the math being shown is not actual in-game performance. yes, you will do less power damage if you do not raise resolve, and the resolve gotta come from somewhere, so chances are your power damage decreases. this is the same nostalgia nonsense as the talents thread. compare to what you could do pre-change or pre-deafire is silly feel/nostalgia. use math to actual show ineffectiveness current in deadfire. dare you. can self gimp by not taking piercing weapons and not taking piercing talent. can act as if the cipher exists solo w/o a party. actual in-game numbers is gonna show you quite clear how a deadfire cipher can get the job done. half the cipher powers is damage dealers? great. that means the other half ain't. use body attunement then pull out your modal enhanced greatsword affected by the cipher's increased penetration talent. chunk. chunk. chunk. you not need ever use a damage power if you feel incapable o' building a cipher with higher resolve. but if you do decide you want weapon and power damage, then we got two words for those who says the new resolve means a cipher can't get the job done: grieving mother https://pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/Grieving_Mother played in deadfire, grieving mother would be almost identical efficacious. tell us you can't manage to build a deadfire cipher with a 12 in strength and resolve? how many o' us had grieving mother top party damage totals on potd runs? only meaningful changes to cipher mechanics for deadfire is not actual cipher mechanics: penetration and casting time/recovery. so build another grieving mother and give her penetrating weapons... and tell us how she don't get the job done. but it won't be the same as your poe cipher, right? *snort* HA! Good Fun! ps we specific used greatsword example 'cause two-handed weapons is one o' the few groups working properly at the moment. woulda' been unfair o' us to use dual wielding sabres or somesuch.

Frankly, Sawyer want so much control the viable/optimal point, it is impossible to miss a character, even with a 3 in recommended stat. So, it is not completely an argument. There is a very clear loss for paladins, druids and cipher. One can not deny it. A quantitative loss, you who love numbers at 18 Might : 24 % if you are focus on Spells side. Yeah, Gromnir's making a feelings argument in response to a mathematical issue. You could make every stat choice feel meaningful by taking away all the discretionary starting points so that if you wanted any stat higher than 10 you had to drop a different one down, too. Think of how hard the choices would be! Wait, even better idea: only one ability point gained every other level. Half as many power choices! So much meaning felt! is hardly feel. given the linear nature o' stats in poe/deadfire compared to the ie games for example, the stats is less significant. sure, the stats still have value, but people is much over-focused on stats 'cause o' the feel they carry over from previous games. again, as noted 'bove, all o' our pc builds is built with approx the same stats, cause non-optimized stats hardly punishes a player playing even on the highest difficulties. Gromnir has actual played a deadfire cipher with the same stats we showed we use for a priest. works fine... save for the penetration issue. so show us the mathematics o' how a cipher will be unable to actual perform in deadfire. am gonna need you show us the math o' how a few points moved 'tween stats is gonna cripple the cipher, 'cause actual experience with a cipher, played as if he were already boned, tells us the opposite, and we watched combat logs to see numbers verify that feel. is a bit like the imagined need for weapon talents for builds current doing laudable weapon damage and weapon and shield talents for tanks already roll-stomping in the deadfire beta. the change to resolve removes a dump stat. fine. great. such is the goal we should be hoping for. if folks is saying the best spread o' stats for a class is pretty much 12s 'cross the board, how is that a problem as long as the class is still viable. the optimizers has always been over concerned 'bout the starting stats spreads. heck, even boeroer has admitted the poe stats is less decisive a character development issue than most optimizers believe. as an aside, whatever problems the cipher has is not stat related but is a penetration issue. HA! Good Fun!

You're missing the point here. It doesn't matter whether it's by big or small numbers, spellcasters should not be tankier than melee classes. Period. But with new system they will be. you are assuming no other changes is being made? give the caster classes the same base deflection as barbarians solves the deflection issue people seem to be concerned 'bout. am not saying such a change will be made, but is best not to assume we know all changes. HA! Good Fun!

if only every class/build were equal broken, then we would be genuine pleased. https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/94897-how-does-the-new-resolve-solve-anything/?p=1958190 https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/94897-how-does-the-new-resolve-solve-anything/?p=1958201 https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/94858-resolve-huh-what-is-it-good-for/?p=1958209 as we noted 'bove, am gonna play before convincing self o' the improvement o' the specific change to resolve. however, the absence o' dump stats making optimized builds more challenging to construct should be the goal rather than something to be mourned. HA! Good Fun!

folks do realize the only reason why hybrids is tougher to optimize is 'cause resolve is closer to being universal useful, yes? and speaking as one who almost never played poe with optimized stats, we can say with conviction, this current change to resolve will not cripple hybrid builds. https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/84838-optimal-starting-stats-and-late-game-signifficance-for-wizard/?p=1782213 can find a half dozen near identical posts from Gromnir. have played numerous variations o' a contemplative with stats near identical to the ones we got revealed in the linked post as our choice for priests. is no undue burden playing such a character. kinda refreshing to be seeing how we will actual benefit from playing our typical stat spread... though at the moment, assuming no other balancing changes is being made (which is a foolish assumption) our paladin tank with mediocre might would be seeing a bit o' a power-up if played in deadfire. HA! Good Fun!

haven't quite figured out the trigger, but the chief can respawn after having been killed on the foothills map. the respawn happens following a reload, but it doesn't always happen. HA! Good Fun!

disagree. the builds you describe as being "boned" is the builds which is responding to the changes as intended. stat choices should be painful. the intention were/is to make all stats useful to a build, so lowering a stat should have an obvious cost. so, good on being boned. however, am admitting pure casters have simple flipped one dump stat for another... while gaining the benefit of increased deflection. also, support tanks is gonna benefit as well, particular paladins and paladin hybrids. paladin tanks were already likely to have middling might so they could boost resolve which only benefited deflection. the payoff for a paladin tank boosting resolve will now go far beyond deflection as all those healing and non-weapon talents will be receiving significant boosts. can fix other classes on an ad hoc basis... but fact some classes is "boned" is part o' the solution rather than the problem. oh, and is easy to fix the caster deflection issue by lowering base deflection to barbarian levels. huzzah. HA! Good Fun! Keeping the current system, though flawed, still has less problems with it than the new proposed system. They 'solved' one problem by adding ten other problems. Regarding you support Paladin; in the current system what was the problem? You wanted Might, Intellect and Resolve. That got you tanky, good healing and good melee damage. New system you could go the same route with Strength, Intellect and Resolve and get the same things. Or you could leave Strength at base or lower and save those points for pumping something else. Seems like the new system just rewards you for min-maxing more which seems contrary to design goals. For every example like your Support Paladin that prospers under the new system there are lots of examples of classes that get gutted like Ciphers or any hybrid weapon user who has heals or spells. Again why make the change if it just makes for a different problem while leaving the original problem untouched? again, you got reversed. gutted is the solution. the problem is pure casters who has simple reversed dump stats and gained deflection, and support paladins, who while already powerful and not needing a power boost, is gonna get a serious boost to their talents save for fod and similar weapon talents. the pure caster problem is easily fixed. *shrug* is a step in the right direction. if all builds were gutted and/or boned, then the system would be working as original intended. fact so many is boned/gutted is good. HA! Good Fun! ps am suspecting the obsidians is aware they cannot achieve universal boned/gutted. while such ubiquitous ability point anguish ain't possible, even if it is desirable, the developers has functional thrown in the towel insofar as achieving such a goal. however, obsidian is attempting to make sure every class has the capacity to benefit from every stat. yeah, a priest is not gonna get much use from might... unless they focus their efforts 'pon maximizing summoned weapons. and a rogue needs resolve 'bout as much as Gromnir needs an eleventh toe... unless one builds a retaliation-tank rogue. am thinking the developers is aware that the admirable goal o' comprehensive boneage is improbable if not impossible. however, the developers should gut as many builds as possible... where "gut" means nothing more than the build benefits from most/all stats.

HA! Good Fun! ps current the basement for stat reduction is 5... in case nobody else already mentioned. What do you mean that the basement is five for stat reduction? I just rolled up an Orlan Wizard in the Beta with a 2 Might. could be a bug we had. tried it and got locked at 5. HA! Good Fun!

disagree. the builds you describe as being "boned" is the builds which is responding to the changes as intended. stat choices should be painful. the intention were/is to make all stats useful to a build, so lowering a stat should have an obvious cost. so, good on being boned. however, am admitting pure casters have simple flipped one dump stat for another... while gaining the benefit of increased deflection. also, support tanks is gonna benefit as well, particular paladins and paladin hybrids. paladin tanks were already likely to have middling might so they could boost resolve which only benefited deflection. the payoff for a paladin tank boosting resolve will now go far beyond deflection as all those healing and non-weapon talents will be receiving significant boosts. can fix other classes on an ad hoc basis... but fact some classes is "boned" is part o' the solution rather than the problem. oh, and is easy to fix the caster deflection issue by lowering base deflection to barbarian levels. huzzah. HA! Good Fun!

on the not-so-funny side, the current peculiarities o' deadfire mechanics has Gromnir outfitting his backline casters with tower shields and wands. as long as kdubya can get his orlan wizard tank to travel back from the future and sit in a doorway to prevent flanking, our squishy wizards will sit back with wands and tower shields taking 50% less damage due to the shield modal while debilitating foes with their wands... 'cause chances are their offensive spells lack enough penetration to do anything useful... at least until our other orlan party member, a skald, uses the ar reducing invocation which is current a no brainer talent. not being able to move is hardly a problem for backline casters when enemies cannot get to them. is a number o' oddities at play. HA! Good Fun! ps current the basement for stat reduction is 5... in case nobody else already mentioned.

people did complain during poe development 'bout the ubiquitous quality o' might damage enhancements. complained often. *shrug* were some developer presentations which explained the thought process behind the ability scores. were never 'posed to be a reality simulator. even so, is curious why so many salient and subtle game abstractions is overlooked while others is so curiously important. HA! Good Fun! I know it's not supposed to be a simulator and I'm fine with that. Or, well... was. I was just pointing out the double standard, and a barrage of excuses was brought out to illustrate it. People might have complained about it back during the original development, but ever since I joined this forum after Deadfire's announcement, it's always been about Might to magic damage. wasn't a criticism o' you. our observations were directed at those who do actual have their shorts in a twist... and have been crying foul since early in poe development. again, with the multitude o' abstractions in poe and every other crpg we can think o', why folks latch on to specific things such as might being useful to wizards is curious. HA! Good Fun!

people did complain during poe development 'bout the ubiquitous quality o' might damage enhancements. complained often. *shrug* were some developer presentations which explained the thought process behind the ability scores. were never 'posed to be a reality simulator. even so, is curious why so many salient and subtle game abstractions is overlooked while others is so curiously important. HA! Good Fun!

I lose the experience of importing. One of the things I enjoyed most about the Baldur's Gate series was importing my character, but if Baldur's Gate 2 had used D&D3e I wouldn't have. Feels the same here. So importing stats was more important to you than story decisions? BG1 didn't import story decisions to BG2, but I guess they made a way around it by making some things canon. And I get what you mean, importing 100% same character with all the same attributes, skills and spells and portrait was satisfying. But that was AD&D for you, there was no need to tweak anything. But personally, after Mass Effect series I got used to devs tweaking stats system in every new game, importing story decisions started to feel more important to me. point out the innumerable successful/superior sequels which altered mechanics significant will not benefit you. HA! Good Fun!

I lose the experience of importing. One of the things I enjoyed most about the Baldur's Gate series was importing my character, but if Baldur's Gate 2 had used D&D3e I wouldn't have. Feels the same here. *chuckle* you have no idea how much we would pay for a bg2 or iwd enhanced edition which utilized the iwd2 mechanics. that woulda' been a real enhanced edition. HA! Good Fun!

That's some good news. In theory. Right now skill points seem rather scarce and it is unknown how much you have to pump them to pass most checks. we did notice the relative diminished significance o' stats in dialogue and cutscene interactions. the skill checks we saw in deadfire beta were rare exceeding 5, which may be a function o' it being the beta. also seemed as if a few checks were solely individual checks as 'posed to benefiting from party assist. is far more skills than stats. unlike poe, is gonna be far more difficult to come up with some kinda ideal dialogue spread o' skills and stats... which is good. HA! Good Fun!

Surprised it's gone beyond this post. Well ok, not really. in the US we kinda make the questions and the solutions more 'bout individual choice. as shady observed, he helps folks get groceries. Gromnir volunteers at local catholic charities. others have indeed adopted a "wash our hands" approach and decided the majority o' homeless don't deserve help. everybody is different and is difficult to discuss as obvious is emotional charged for a few folks... see their integrity challenged or somesuch. place questions and solutions in the hands o' individuals is not the most efficient way to deal with a problem which affects more than simple the homeless. san diego recent had an outbreak o' hepatitis which were linked to homeless folks and predictable hygiene issues. nevertheless, for all the problems o' leaving such widespread issues to largely to individual/private means, such an approach is the kinda thing gd and the founding fathers would likely approve. HA! Good Fun!

am suspecting any number o' abilities is gonna get changes in the next few months. has only been a little over a week. wouldn't worry too much at this point. HA! Good Fun!

am agreeing with josh that the dump stat reality were already in poe. constitution were a dump stat for most builds. resolve were a dump stat for anybody but tanks. many tanks, particular chanter and paladins, could dump dexterity. etc. take a look at the build compilation thread for poe. see how optimizers spread ability scores. no dump stats were an admirable notion, and am still believing every class should produce viable builds with diverse stat spreads. this change ain't a limit 'pon such a goal. is more than a few casters builds who is gonna want high strength to take advantage of spiritual weapons or firebrand or rods or whatever. is not hard to see how a fighter is gonna benefit from high deflection and the heal boost (do not ignore how powerful +10 tiers o' athletics can be when boosted by high might/resolve/whatever.) at first glance this change appears to reduce the current dump stats reality rather than introducing anything new. even so, wanna play 'fore we adopt some kind bias we will have difficulty unburdening our self from. HA! Good Fun!

We won't really know until we see how much each boosts damage. But even if they each boost damage double what might does now hybrids will still have a significantly lower damage boost potential than non hybrids. Obviously, like everybody else, I would be a bit dismayed if in fact hybrid builds became completely non-viable, but I'm pretty sure it won't be that bad. It would be very counter-productive, given the new multiclass system and all. for rp reasons, Gromnir has been playing much o' the beta with priest builds. also for rp reasons, we has been playing with our traditional spread o' abilities: m 15 c 10 d 10 p 14 i 15 r 14 given the changes, we would play a helwalker monk hybrid with much the same stats. yeah, the build would be less o' a healing titan, but would still be more than viable. now, for those who optimize, the change will serious affect hybrids who wanna be superlative casters and weapon user monsters. is legit concerns for such folks. is also admitted counter-intuitive how priests and wizards, many o' whom were yesterday having less-than-10 resolves and cruddy deflection, sudden is gonna be seeing ~18 resolves and deflections better than most dps weapon users. gonna see how it actual plays. will likely require adjustment. that being said, am admitted less affected by this change than most as our rp-focus builds has us needing make only small changes. HA! Good Fun!