Gromnir

gonna disagree. no surprise. the subclasses is not s'posed to be superior to the base class. am thinking the folks who believe penalties is too harsh for many/most subclasses is ignoring the fundamental goal o' keeping subclasses balanced with the base class. w/o harsh penalties to balance powerful benefits, the reasonableness o' choosing a base class diminishes precipitous. once again, the true problem is ignored/reversed. already too many base classes is losing appeal relative to subclasses. to simple make paladins more (unnecessarily) powerful to account for lack o' a generalist option ignores the real issues. HA! Good Fun!

cheat in the gold is easy with the console commands. first thing we do following character creation: iroll20s. next is GivePlayerMoney 100000. 20 seconds o' our time, at most. have already mentioned in another thread we would like to save hireling profiles, so won't repeat all reasons, however, am gonna admit we wish there were a shop with a broader array o' arms an armour. when making a custom party, am spending considerable time cheating in flail_fine, war_bow_fine, shield_medium_heater_fine, etc. for most parties, we simple default to the armour we can buy from the local merchant and only cheat in fine weapons, but is nevertheless a time drain. HA! Good Fun!

agree. at the moment, with the penalty, paladins are powerful both as a single class and multiclass option. one can current choose to play the single-class paladin as tanky, tanky-support, or even dps-- considerable options and variety. converse, with the current build, one o' the best multiclass options is paladin/anything else. faith and convictions is indeed quite powerful, and sworn enemy/rival imparts both a damage and accuracy bonus which, if utilized with tactical awareness, effective lasts a large % o' any combat encounter. healing. aoe blindness. numerous enhanced damage talents. so many advantages. you want the +4 armour o' a goldpact knight, then given all the other benefits o' the paladin, foregoing auras don't seem like such a big deal. the current penalties hardly cripple the paladin orders, and the malus does require the player to make hard choices. the priest school prohibitions (which is being lifted in the next build) could effective limit a priest to a choice between 1-2 spell options during level-up, with neither o' those two options being particular appealing. lifting the priest prohibitions is the correct choice, but is a cure for a much different problem than what paladin faces. the removal o' the malus is fixing a problem which don't actual exist. one o' the few classes we had few complaints 'bout is being improved with the wrong kinda fix. HA! Good Fun!

on the positive side, the compulsive min-maxers may actual come to realize how the less extreme stat spreads is both effective (even for potd runs) and open up dialogue/cutscene options they were previous cheating themselves o' experiencing... at least w/o benefits o' metagame. at worst, call it a wash. HA! Good Fun!

won't need to nerf devoted 'cause once it works as described, most folks will abandon it. when working as described, the only devoted weapon choices which make much sense is the dual damage types such as greatswords, pollaxe and warhammers. the devoted's 20% accuracy penalty is gonna be significant prohibitive particular in light of the fact that most high-penetration weapons is piercing... with the exception of war bow and kinda the warhammer. face any foe who is high armour or immune to piercing makes many weapon choices terribad. the dual-damage types is the only weapons which won't have the devoted feeling serious gimped... and depending 'pon changes to penetration, choose a poor/mediocre penetration weapon might be an equal bad option. soulbounds would be an obvious way to circumvent devoted penalties IF deadfire treated universal weapons as did poe. such is not the case at the moment. a soulbound dagger is still a dagger insofar as devoted penalty application is concerned, which is probable a good thing given devoted benefits. make so devoted has only a single proficiency with all other weapons incurring -20% accuracy is how the subclass is intended and described as functioning. not need nerf. only need fix devoted so is working as written/described and the vast majority o' devoted devoted will melt away like late-spring snow. HA! Good Fun!

Mmm... ever hear of a Faraday cage? which would only be helpful in the case o' full-plate armour under limited conditions. no helmet = screwed flesh makes contact with armour = screwed scale, chain, brigandine, breastplate, etc is offering zero electricity protection, and you better make certain your padding under the plate isn't wet or soaked with sweat or... whatever. 'course deadfire is a game, so reality has very little to do with the question. best not to start down the teh rehul path or everything 'bout deadfire will unravel. gonna wait to see how the changes to penetration affect the game before we make recommendations for change. particular with the limited spell catalogs available to casters in deadfire (although wizard grimoires would appear to be a possible significant end-around to such limits) the limited elemental vulnerabilities o' critters and armours is gonna be resulting in a few peculiarities resulting from metagaming/knowledge. as an aside, have always said elemental spells is lazy design, but will address later when we have more time. HA! Good Fun!

correct link "as an aside, another quirky priest bug is resulting from the lash damage of spiritual weapons, such as the flail o' eothas, being applied to spell damage. a templar with a spiritual flail equipped will add corrode damage when utilizing the aforementioned divine mark." was not in the title, but as far as we could tell via search, the bug had not previous been mentioned... though has been identified frequent subsequent and more prominent. HA! Good Fun!

well, as h.alloy did concede regarding druid summoned weapons via shifting, the relative power o' such weapons should be taken into account when looking at durations. even when the bug affecting spiritual weapons is fixed, they is still gonna be a bit op. personal, we would reduce the lash damage, but decreasing duration o' priestly spiritual weapons would be another option for addressing the current excess. is current a non-decision as to whether a priest/_______ who is doing most damage through weapons is gonna cast priestly spiritual weapon spell. if a choice is obvious, then is no choice at all... which should be repugnant to a game such as deadfire. HA! Good Fun!

*insert eye roll here* played a couple different priests o' eothas and wael (each) as well as one priest o' berath. heck, we played an all preist party which turned out to be a bit op. had a half dozen different paladins... at least three of whom used the firebrand on a regular basis. typical would give firebrand to pallegina when she were in the party, and hiravias would summon his own when the alpine and sky dragons were debuffed. barbarians were obvious beneficiaries o' firebrand, but moreso for the mobs accompanying the dragon. alpine and sky were weakest 'gainst burn, so why wouldn't we take advantage o' firebrand? 3 is still hyperbolic... but regardless, the point you thought you were making were not much o' a point. HA! Good Fun!

good vo may make a well written character better. good vo may improve a mediocre or one dimensional character bad vo may ruin a good character. bad vo only makes a bad character laughable 'stead o' forgettable. and mediocre vo doesn't do a damn thing. the limited vo in ps:t tended to enhance the game. the vo for kotor1 hk-47 transformed a one-trick-pony into a fan favorite. 'course the examples o' bad vo is legion. if obsidian were an enormous studio with massive resources, am thinking they would prefer full vo, but obsidian ain't bethesda or blizzard. get a cast similar to ps:t to do full vo for deadfire would be nice, and no doubt implausibly expensive. so instead, if obsidian could find a way to pay for full vo, am thinking it would necessarily tend towards competence rather than excellence. am not needing mediocre full vo and am not seeing a way for a developer such as obsidian to afford excellent vo. am not seeing the value from such an investment. vo is one o' those aspects for Gromnir which if not done well, am thinking is better to not do at all. use saved monies to improve other aspects o' the game. HA! Good Fun!

your guess would be way off, particular for pre wm poe. we most often played priests and paladins as mains... why play anything else from our pov? could add a hireling to the companions if we wished, but only priest and paladins received gameplay benefits from disposition gains. sure we ended up getting around to just 'bout anything, but priests and paladins were our staple. have stated many times how we thought folks were using priests all wrong in poe as ours were typical doing considerable weapon damage, after throwing down a few buffs. firebrand did burn damage and the sky dragon, in spite o' breathing fire, were weakest to fire. not sure how many times our priests o' berath, wael and eothas switched over to firebrand to fight the sky dragon. were an ideal weapon as we likely had two-handed style for those characters. high base damage and burn meant it were an ideal option for overcoming skydragon dr. so, how often? Most o' the time pre wm... and often enough after depending the order we finished quests. were a highly effective weapon 'gainst the sky dragon... and trolls and constructs and primordials and... we played our paladin tanks with intellect as highest stat 'cause we believed they were wasted as simple meat shields. no 3 dex nonsense for us neither. so, as firebrand were a universal weapon, once we had debuffed the sky dragon we typical switched over to firebrand for a few flames o' devotion strikes. *chuckle* keep in mind the adra dragon weren't immune to fire or petrification at the release o' poe. she were having something in the order o' +30 burn dr? maybe even 40? petrification were admitted ridiculous broken, but even so, we killed the adra with fire multiple times. so, yeah, your hyperbole 'bout how often we benefited from firebrand burn quality were way off, but so too were your guestimate 'bout the number o' times we killed the sky dragon with a firebrand. HA! Good Fun! ps alpine dragon were having better overall defenses and were just as weak to fire as the sky dragon. the alpine dragon got a kiester full o' Gromnir's firebrand more than once.

we assumed such uniformity is a placeholder quality for such an early build o' the beta, but am not certain. worth asking, but we would be surprised if all such weapons were corrode at final release. HA! Good Fun!

am gonna note the temporal proximity 'tween the announcement regarding the stream and the stream itself. is possible this recent stream were an impromptu thing, and it sounds as if somebody involved in the process were ill, so perhaps the obsidians were not certain there would be a stream until almost 11:00am o' the day o' the stream. however, am suspecting there were some folks, somewheres, who went to bed before the announcement and woke after/during the stream. am appreciating the obsidian streams and the willingness o' developers to share info during such streams. am also understanding how difficult it can be to make such streams happen according to a schedule. even so, for future streams, a bit more o' a heads-up would be welcome. thanks... in advance. HA! Good Fun!

well at least we have dropped the silly notion that 'cause a summoned weapon replaces equipped it should, by default, last as long as the fight. good. and it seems as if this is no longer a generalized summoned weapons concerns thread as most seem to admit spiritual priest weapons is somewhere 'tween good and op and the other summoned weapons is either situational useful or need be nerfed a bit. good. is now simple a matter o' firebrand? maybe change the thread title? regardless, is nice to see progress. good. gonna ignore the misrepresentation o' firebrand advantages by jk other than to say he might wanna ask boeroer why bittercut were so efficacious in poe... and why durance's staff were less so. we will note 2% guestimate by boeroer sounds a bit hyperbolic. heck, two o' the dragons in poe were particular vulnerable to burn damage, not to mention the numerous primordials, spirits, troll, and constructs. if a smallish lash (not the 50 or 60% nonsense) were added to firebrand, am doubting it would be game breaking, particular as the spell duration could be reduced a bit as a kinda balance. other than a few boss fights, a 60 second base duration is largely wasted. feels like progress. HA! Good Fun!

as seems to be the increasing common case, Gromnir is looking at this opportunity a bit different than others posting. we would like obsidian to come up with intriguing builds/concepts for multiclasses which we do not have much interest in playing. "i hadn't thought of that." get a new pov on multiclasses which intrigue us little. wizard/chanter wizard/priest priest/cipher druid/cipher cipher/chanter surprise us with nifty, and preferable non-melee combat, iterations o' the 'bove. am well aware how with with op priestly spiritual weapons it is possible to make a wizard/priest build which does consistent high damage. don't bother with such. surprise us. HA! Good Fun!

"hearing" a silent gif? https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/how-can-you-hear-silent-gif-180967491/ HA! Good Fun!

Sure, that's a fair comparison. But druid spiritshift forms. . .are instant-cast, right? (I haven't bothered to try a druid in Deadfire yet). And they give really big bonuses, in exchange for short durations? If they gave milder bonuses, they'd need longer durations . . . am wondering if you are actual responding to our posts. in any event, sounds as if you are simple quibbling 'bout the appropriate length o' the cast and the duration o' the spell. firebrand lasts 4x as long as spirit shift. in any event, is no more analogizing to weapon switch. congrats. baby steps. HA! Good Fun! ps clarification: firebrand is 4x the duration o' spiritshift, but base spiritshift duration is only 15 seconds... firebrand is 60.

A summoned weapon really isn't a spell, though. It doesn't target anything, it doesn't *do* anything, until you attack with it like a weapon. Functionally it's equivalent to an extra weapon set, not a spell or a buff. Think about it this way: something like Arcane Shield operates as a buff on top of your currently equipped gear. It doesn't replace your currently equipped shield. If there were a spell that summoned an equippable shield, yeah, the spell should either have an instant cast and be level equivalent -- with some sort of nice bonus effect to justify the cast -- or if long-cast / short duration, be markedly better than other level-equivalent gear. dear lord. yeah, it's a weapon, which you gain at level-up rather than through 1007ing or purchase and bring into being for a limited period of time via caster spell mechanics, after which it disappears... just like other equipped weapons? as beoroer notes, the functional weapon switch you is analogizing to can be interrupted... 'cause it is manifesting through the mechanics o' Spell Casting. furthermore, unlike equipables, the summons can't be upgraded and is only useable by a single class... save for in the case o' firebrand, which is showing up on both druid and priest o' eothas list. so, two. can't pass the firebrand to a fellow party "long enough to last the entire fight," can you? etc. trying to analogize to actual weapons is swell and all, but am not seeing the point. is not an equipable weapon. is a per-encounter power gained at level-up. ... closer analogy for you would be druid spirit shift, no? functional you actual get armour and weapons with special qualities, though they ain't visible in inventory. shift for druid is instantaneous... and lasts 20 seconds. HA! Good Fun!

for a second level slot? sure. greatswords do slash/pierce. if Gromnir is current stuck with a slash/pierce weapon ''gainst a foe with high slash/pierce armour (which given the greatsword's less than stellar armour penetration is likely) am gonna frequent be thankful we got the firebrand with burn/pierce and is a weapon with scaling magical quality which counts as a free weapon slot and has a duration of +80 seconds for a "caster" with good intellect. thanks to some o' the complainers, Gromnir, if he wants to have useful greatsword proficiency, will now likely have to take multiple talents as 'posed to just one... so am gonna want as much use from greatswords as possible. so, yeah, it is well-balanced as it has a high chance o' being useful when your other greatsword/weapons would be rendered useless or o' little use 'cause o' insufficient armour penetration or when you don yet eben have a magical greatsword. is a per encounter option, so gonna be able to use these more often than poe counterparts. oh, and one reason why bittercut were so effective in poe were precise 'cause it were corrode/slash-- is the primary reason it were so effective. more than a few poe builds in the poe builds thread is based 'round aquisition o' bittercut. sneer at such a quality in this place when lauding elsewhere is a bit hypocritical, eh? sure, you won't be able to durgan's steel a firebrand, but it is a second level druid spell for chrissakes. for levels 1-10, we believe firebrand and the other summoned weapons we has seen is perfectly acceptable... with the recognition a few is bugged or too powerful. firebrand ain't near as bad as you suggest, and if Gromnir has greatsword proficiency, then yeah, am thinking it is a reasonable option to be choosing firebrand, but only if we need consider levels 1-10. past early and mid levels, if deadfire 1007 keeps pace with poe progression, firebrand and concelhaut's staff will be relegated to relative pointlessness. we has noted repeated how opposite o' what jk suggested, is at high levels when the early summons is gonna suffer by comparison. unless as part o' the scaling scheme something is added beyond the level we are playing, am suspecting folks will likely exploit respec to dump 'em. refrain in this thread is little more than poe summoned weapons are better than deadfire versions. some poe summons were silly powerful and would be game breaking when wielded by a deadfire paladin/_______ or berserker/________. as long as the summons maintain rough quality parity and add one additional facet not readily available to the player, am thinking they is a win choice. regardless, a spell with one o' the longest durations possible needs instacast? *chuckle* HA! Good Fun!

there is many a cautionary tale 'bout the granting o' wishes. genie in the lamp. monkey's paw. etc. grant wish and make instacast, but then reduce extreme long duration to put more in line with other spells? I don't really follow what you're saying here re: "wishing." All the spells need numerous balance changes to durations, cast times, effects, etc. right now., and yeah, there's an obvious bug with the lashes boosting weapon damages and I don't think anyone's saying that should persist. That said, i'm not sure why the duration of the summoned weapon particularly matters. "Long enough to last the whole fight" seems reasonable if it's otherwise equivalent to an appropriate-for-level found weapon. If it's better, then maybe shorter duration makes sense. *Regardless* though it should be an instant-cast because . . . it's a melee weapon, you have to cast it then attack with it. If it's roughly equivalent with other found items (as I *think* you're arguing for) then a fast cast time and a very long duration would both be indicated, in order to maintain that parity. With longer cast times than "instant" or shorter durations than "the whole fight," it's no longer equivalent to a found item, so you'd need to give the weapon a comparative boost in effectiveness to balance that out. so a spell which creates the equivalent o' a magical shield should get a shorter duration than a summoned magic weapon? reason? any buff or debuff or weapon enhancement or pretty much anything other than damage producing spells and cleanses, could be utilizing the same "long enough for the whole fight" reason. hardly convincing. is perfect reasonable that a spell with a long duration should have a longer cast time. spells which does huge relative damage should also have longer cast times. it's a spell. compare to equippable weapons is specious, particular as the summoned weapons is counting as an additional free weapon set. these is now per-encounter abilities. thank goodness. idiotic vancian casting meant that other than rest spam, you had to hoard your low-level casting opportunities 'tween rest. balancing nightmare as a caster, particular at high levels, were far more powerful immediate following a rest. weak low level. strong high. other than boss fights, is no reason a poe developer should be believing a caster had immediate rested. balance encounters with vancian casters is obvious is more difficult. converse, in deadfire we can use spiritual weapons or firebrand or spirit lance every encounter from the moment we acquire the power. the amount o' time a player o' less than level 10+ is functional able to utilize these summoned weapons 'tween rests has increased dramatically 'tween poe and deadfire. so yeah, an increased cast time for a per-encounter Spell with an extreme long duration is unreasonable because? HA! Good Fun!

there is many a cautionary tale 'bout the granting o' wishes. genie in the lamp. monkey's paw. etc. grant wish and make instacast, but then reduce extreme long duration to put more in line with other spells? at the moment the priest weapons is doing too much damage and is bugged-- the lash effect is being added to spell damage as well. with few found weapons in the beta to compare, the priest weapons is clear winners, which is just wrong. am suspecting there will be changes, but as much as folks like priest weapons and hate the rest o' summoned, the current glaring problem is with the priestly spiritual weapons. oh, and for the firebrand haters, am suspecting if half o' the enemies in the beta were constructs and trolls, people would no doubt be impressed by the firebrand. am suspecting deadfire will have a similar % o' fire weak enemies as did poe, which will make the firebrand much more effective than some folks imagine. situational very powerful. good. HA! Good Fun!

true. given how limited is the power selection for all classes, found/1007 wizard grimoires is a major, if unpredictable, advantage. a subsequent deadfire run will amplify the benefits o' the grimoires as metaknowledge will allow for more tailored power selection. HA! Good Fun!

am suspecting there will be numerous druid/caster combos which will be effective. have not tried such ourself, but as accuracy is no longer dramatic differing 'tween classes, one can see how a few wizard spells would be highly useful to a druid focused on shifting, and if a priest eventual gets minor avatar... HA! Good Fun!

additional benefit nobody has mentioned: summoned weapons is Not equipped. first playthrough o' deadfire, and absent metaknowledge, being able to summon a weapon which does a different kinda damage than weapons you current have equipped is functional a free weapon set. is no small thing particular in light of deadfire's penetration scheme. keep in mind, most people only play games such as deadfire once, if they finish at all. HA! Good Fun!

agreed. have a summoned weapon which equals equipable weapons is advantageous in and of itself, particular at lower levels. if bob the warlock is equipping concelhaut's staff, then pallegina can be using the greatsword, justice. also, those who cannot see how the summoned weapons with their unique qualities will be situational highly efficacious is revealing a stunning lack o' imagination. each weapon has qualities which will come in handy with some frequency... and considering the duration o' the summoned weapons, the casting time issue strikes us as illusory. once again some has the problem reversed. IF a summoned weapon were a no-brainer choice for a power slot, then there would be a problem. situational high use and rough parity with equippable should be the goal. even so, am admitting we don't see how such weapons genuine keep pace with equippable weapons, even with the quality scaling. is the monk fists problem. HA! Good Fun!