Boeroer

Not always - but maybe once it gets some attention because enough people chime in and agree. Your contribution to the discussion wasn't really helpful so far - what do you want to accomplish with your posts? Win the argument by mocking and playing the devil's advocate? I still think it's a very reasonable request that the recursion gets removed altogether while making those abilities attractive for the normal player again. If nobody talks about it surely nothing will chance - or let's say the chances are lower.

I guess that the Ring of Focused Flame and Scion of Flame affect Powder Burns? I didn't test that - is it the case? Because both are also good for the paladin (FoD for example) and the Druid (fire spells). I guess also Sacred Immolation. Did somebody test if Voidward (ring) lowers the raw self-damage of Sacred Immolation?

They had enough PEN at lvl 6-9 even now with the buffed AR of PotD - and it also scales with char level. Edit: rechecked: it does not scale with level on skeletons because those use actual swords wich will not get improved with level (oversight?). Also skeletons now have swords of poor quality which results in all kinds of bad stuff like damage malus, ACC malus and PEN malus. Same with Ogres: no scaling. No summon scales its weapons. But higher tier summons have higher base PEN. You can add Animancy Cat which adds +1 PEN to summons. I didn't have severe problems with PEN so far (also because of Hel Hyraf) but I didn't take it beyond lvl 9. But seeing now that it doesn't scale at all I will be pretty sure that this is a severe problem at higher levels. Low level summons are only good at body-blocking, dealing lots of small hits (Combusting Wounds, Confounding Blind, Death ot 1000 Cuts?) and cannon fodder then. You will need to summon higher tier summons to keep up the PEN. Afflictions can be countered with gear (there is an item for most kinds of resistance and you can combine them with racial resistance) and monks can use Clarity and Crucible to take the edge off the remaining lower tier afflictons. As I already said: You need to cast Hel Hyraf (was obviously a no brainer pre nerf, but still works ok). With the upgrade and six summons you generate so many hits that it will last forever (on a single enemy). So usually PEN is not a severe problem at mid levels - but as I said it will be bad at higher levels (if you don't use higher tier summons). However- while the prolonged duration via Duality is nice I think that a Paladin is a better candidate for a multiclass with a summoning Chanter. You can switch to Exhalted Endurance or give them more ACC, you can give them more dps via Shared Flames, you'll have better passive defenses and can use other items because you can get several resistances via passives. The upgraded Beacon which does +40% dmg is also not bad once the summons surrounded the enemy (as long as they are not severly underpenetrating). Paladin/Chanter for me is the perfect summoner so far. Build yourself very tanky while using summons as damage dealing cannon fodder is very effective. It's even ok if skeletons die because they split. I can't say if I like Troubadour better than Beckoner when it comes to summons. The body blocking and dps of twice the summons is really good while the Troubadour is a lot more versatile. For me skeletons are the best summons overall because they have engagement which reliably stops enemies' movement. Their damage output is bad after mid level unfortunately but still...

You really had to dive into that? Oh my... It is ignorant to deny people their opinion and to dismiss their arguments as stupid while they are valid - because as you said: the criteria of what "strongest class" means are not clearly determined. So maybe stop calling people stupid that explain why they think an Empowered Meteor Shower or whatever spell is strong and leads them to vote as they do. As I said: feel free to disagree. I don't think wizard is strongest myself. But I wouldn't say that it's stupid to think so. I wouldn't even call somebody stupid who thinks that rogue is the best class in PoE. Now that's something to chew on...

@no1fanboy: Hm... I don't know. Already in PoE the priest was about buffing (and dealing damage as a second pillar). The healing spells except Triumph of the Crusaders were pretty mediocre compared to stuff like Moonwell. Also every class had cheap access to some self healing via Veteran's Recovery. So for me it's ok if the priest isn't the number one healer (also doesn't fit certain subclasses like Berath/Skean/Magran etc.). For me and my needs, Deadfire priest should excel at buffing. I wouldn't be sad if the priest also had the damage potential of the PoE version. Unfortunately that part was gimped a bit in Deadfire due to the changes to Shining Beacon and also Minor Avatar.

...also taking part in the discussion the wrong way if you ask me. Can't remember when sarcasm lead to a fruitful conversation.

With Devotions at +20 ACC it was one of the strongest classes in my book - now I find priests to be a bit meh. They are good to counter afflictions though. And I think it's still the class with the most AoE buffs. I'm currently doing a playthrough with Xoti as SC monk instead of priest but although she's doing great in general I have to say I miss the priest's spells.

Also Power Level gives a bonus to base duration of summons (or used to) - multiplies with INT.

I played a Trickster/Beguiler in the beta and the best part of it was his potential to CC mobs without pause while also damaging them. Back then I used a rod for applying rogue's afflictions in an AoE and then use deception CC. With Draining Whip I could get more focus back from Phantom Foes and Eyestrike than I spend(!). It was not overpowered but effective. Now the rod Blast doesn't cause afflictons anymore so you'd have to use Hand Mortar + Fire in the Hole or Frostseeker. Those still work. Or a scroll of Kalakoth's Minor Blights. Wahaī Pōraga and WotEP would also work if you want melee. Back then I only used Trickster for more CC options instead of another rogue. And because of the nice thematical combo.

FoD with Hand Mortar + Fire in the Hole on mobs is fun, spectacular and rel. easy/early to get. You only have to do the Benweth Quest and then sail to Neketaka, visit the Bathhouse and sail to Sayuka - I think. Did anyone test if White Flames procs more than twice when using this combo? I only tried Bleak Walker...

I guess so. I cannot remember anything else.

The barb combos were a reply to another user who asked what broken combos I mean. Why wouldn't you care for empowering spells in a discussion about power? It's integral part of the game and works like intended. So it's totally reasonable to take the effects of empower into consideration when judging the power of a class. If this doesn't fit your criteria of "strongest class" then be it so - but while you said you understand what was said you refuse to acknowledge the points that were made. You may disagree, why not? But dismissing those arguments is ignorant. This thread is about strongest class/weakest class and the reasons why each player thinks they are - it's not about what you want or if you dislike the mechanic. If empower makes the wizard a lot stronger than other classes then it's a fair point to say that that's reason to vote for wizard in this scope. Also the bad subclasses don't necessarily gimp the classes power potential. It only narrows the choice. If there would be a class thst is generally weak but whose one subclass had one single overpowered ability that kills every enemy on the field then it would be a fair point to say that it's the strongest even though most people might not like that ability. It's like saying "Oh the Blackbird can't be the fastest plane! It's only because of its badly designed afterburners that are too strong. I don't like afterburners so I don't understand how you can claim that it's the fastest plane."

You could save scum at ship wreck locations in order to get some more I guess?

The Magistrate's Cudgel is pretty fun with a Barb/Fighter or -/Cipher or -/Monk + Blood Thirst as soon as you fight kith enemies... But a Fighter/Barb with Clear Out and Blood Thirst really "kills it".

Note that power level increases the base duration of summons. It multiplies with the INT bonus. At least it did last time I checked (pre 1.1).

I think I read it in the bug section some time ago. But it surely won't hurt to put it again - just to be sure it gets the attention it deserves.

Yes, with Chanter it's still a problem. I guess they will fix it at some point. Druids and Paladins also got fixed at some point after beta.

Iron Wheel and Turning Wheel are not mutually exclusive by the way. This is a rare case where you can pick both upgrades.

Remember that you only can have one instance of summons on the field. With 1.2 Dichotomous Soul should be viable - at the the moment it's just terrible.

Why Turning Wheel? It does nothing for your summons. You already get +10 INT via Duality of Mortal Presence...?

But... I want them to remove the recursive procs - that's the whole point of the latest discussion.

Not exactly, but partially true. I don't use them a lot because the gain from one debuffing spell in an encounter is a lot higher than the gain from one damaging spell. Mainly because spell uses are so limited then. Later - with a lot more spell uses the situation can shift and I may find myself using high level debuffs but low level damaging spells. You also don't seem to use empower. Because if there's a class that makes the most out of empower it's the wizard. As for Barb's broken combos: try Wahaī Pōraga + Heart of Fury, Lord Darryn's Voulge + that electro-helmet with Berserker's Frenzy. Also try Body Blows + Brute Force. Try Beckoner/Berserker who kills his own puny minions in order to trigger Blood Thirst. Or just use Berserker-HoF on you party's Beckoner-summons just to increase the number of hits that get generated - adding a ton of carnage-damage even if there's only one single enemy.

They can be abused. Didn't I mention before that yesterday I did a one-shot of a whole bunch of Rotghasts with Spirit Lance + Stunning Surge (with Swift Flurry + Heartbeat Drumming)? Or was it in another thread? I will not present you a video - you will have to trust me or try it out yourself... The lowering of Swift Flurry's percentage and the reduction of cleave targets hurts normal players but doesn't prevent abuse of recursive procs. It's a cheap but ugly method. Only the removal of recursive procs can prevent recursive procs without making the abilities crap for the normal player. It's actually quite simple and should be a position that anyone could agree to.

Depends. After a certain point the AoE increase via INT gets absurd. But anyway: I played a maxed CON barb in an "Ultimate" attempt and only died due to a stupid bug I didn't know before. I got to lvl 16 without too much hassle and most fights (except very early game) I didn't even have to pull and kite - because my self heals (that add a lot of endurance to my already huge endurance pool) and especially my health pool was so big I could outlast almost anything even though I had terrible deflection. CON is also great because it raises fortitude - the most important defense in my opinion. Because if you get killed it's a fortitude based afflictons most of times...

True. Especially when compared with the passives that give you additional duration and +10 ACC for will based spells - and the passive that gives you back +5 focus per crit roll on spells. I find them to be powerful enough - at least when playing a solo cipher. Multiclass doesn't help much with the mind control, so...