Elric Galad

Problem 1 : I don't agree with your suggestion about light armor. Rogue are a DPS class so they're already incented to use light armors. With current system, you can still build a heavy armored rogue, it's usually not optimal, but there have been some good roguse build using heavy armor on this forum. This is one of the basis of PoE design to enable the use any armor or weapon from any class. I don't think it would be good to change this, especially when most rogues already wear light armor due to min-maxing. I never found that Rogue survivability was that much a problem by the way. They are surely not tanky, but when used with caution, they are able to survive pretty well. The problem for me is that they don't get enough rewards compared to the risks they take. Problem 2 : I don't agree neither for similar reasons. It's nice to have any class being able to use any weapon. Full Attack system favors dual wield, so I don't think two handed are favored at all for rogue class. Furthermore, when you start stacking +% damages like rogue does, small weapons tend to become better that medium ones, because they have a higher DPS apart from DR. When damages per hit rises, DR becomes less significant, eventually making light weapon superior. However, DR Bypass abilities could be nice. Stacking Bypass would be a very nice high level ability. And adding raw damages per hit is exacly what Deep Wound would do if made stackable ^^ However, I agree that there is a problem for Backstab and Final blow. For these, I think small weapons should get a better multiplicator. Problem 3 : Good idea even if I don't think we will see it for PoE 1. Sorry for being pessimistic

Double post.

Good point, you're right.

Mmm no. You can't add a lash on a souldbound weapon. If you have stormcaller, electricity talent is very good

Usually, I consider : - Corrode to be the most reliable Lash. - Fire is less reliable, but there are also a lot of ennemies vulnerable to it. - Cold is resisted quite often in White Marsh. So priority : - Corrode - Fire - Electricity - Cold If you have an elemental talent, prioritarize it.

Found this pre-saber nerf spreadsheet [...] EDIT: Copy paste table didn't work well, and I don't want to waste effort on a out-of-date one. > Boeroer : I'm perfectly aware that my analysis wasn't perfect. I think it's pretty insane with a lot of subcase according to Deflection/ Etc... Example : Sure for persistence, but why not Tidefall Rogue in this case ? My point was really to determine how much melee rogue in optimal condition was above bow ranger with pet, and I was pretty satisfied with my "order of magnitude" conclusions And to summarize the conclusion : Rogue is not far above enough to justify the lack of other utility and difficulty of use in a real playthrough. Which is quite in line with what you say By the way, druid is insane, yeah. But for limited time only. And cancelling all magic items kind of hurt (especially for secondary defenses). Excellent but not reliable Single Target DPS. Of course, druid is not only about that

I remember trying to compare Saber Rogue and Twinned Arrow Warbow Ranger. I can't find the details, but my assmption and conclusions were the following : Assumptions : - Constant Deathblows - Constant Apprentice Sneak Attack and Predator's Sense bonus - Pet and Ranger attacking same target - Wolf pet - Most passive increasing pet or ranger - per encounter abilities not considered Conclusions - Wolf pet does about as much physical damages per hit as a Rogue, but there are almost no way to decrease its recovery time (No Durgan pet) and it has no lash nor big dexterity bonus. Eventually, that leads to pet doing something like 20-30% of Rogue DPS. - As a rule of thumb, ranged weapons do approximately 60-66% damages of melee ones. I came to this conclusion by comparing Warbow and 2 handed weapon attack delay. - Stalker Link + Twinned Arrows basically DOUBLE ranger's DPS. Endgame, when both Ranger and Rogue have tons of weapon enchant, might and various +X% damage increase, this is what matters the most. Basically, that tends to compensate for the various Rogue +X% damage increase. - Eventually, Rogue ended a head above Ranger. It seemed to me that was a little more condition for them to deliver their optimal damages. - Rogue DPS were more resilient against high DR. Of course, Ranger could switch to firearms, but loosing Twinned Arrows will basically kill the build's DPS. And as said before, this does not take into account a lot of utilities that Ranger brings, such as pet tanking, Driving Flight, or the awesome Stunning Shots. I should do the maths again, especially after Saber nerf...

First conclusion is that most people agrees that improving Rogue's "Spike Single Target DPS" should be the way to go. Most suggestions are related to backstab. ----- Backstab indeed needs a big rework. I honnestly don't think we will get it for PoE 1, but maybe for next episode. Due to how important Base damages are, I think a damage Multiplicator would be better. Something like : - x4 for Small Weapons - x3 for Medium Weapons - x2 for Two Handed Check the numbers from base damage, with these factors Small Weapons > Medium Weapons > Two Handed. For ranged wepons, IMHO, it shouldn't work at all, but I would happily see another talent called Ambush Shot applying something like +150% damages factor on ranged weapon shot made from stealth whatever the distance is. Not being multiplicative is what would balance this compared to Backstab. Even if ranger should stay the #1 ranged constant attacker, a specialty for sniping would certainly suit the Rogue. Note that this unique factor favors Big Guns over bows, but for me it seems pretty logical for a sniping shot. Finally, Stealth shall scale better with skill level. Currently, whatever your level is, it seems impossible to backstab some high level ennemies, while even with low stealth, your funky barbarian will consistently have a good positionning. You should be able to backstab a dragon with something like Stealth 12. I suspect the difficulty is checked with something like (Stealth / ennemy level), which makes high level level ennemies impossible to trick. I would even argue that hide in plain sight should be possible, with increased difficulty. Stealth is currently a very convenient skills when you get a couple of points for all your party, but there is no true reward for high levels. It is annoying for the rogue, but not only. ----- My problem with this is that I don't think we will see it for PoE 1. So for the following reactions to your replies below, I will not take this change into account. Currently, non-cancellable invisibility for a duration gives similar results (with probably a lot of factors, not to mention quickswith build, etc...) for fast attacking or slow weapons, so emphasizing "not cancellable invisibility" abilities should mostly hide the "dagger problem". So my replies : "So we have 50-55% Hit-to-Crit rate (or 65-70% with one one-handed weapon). Considering very high Rogue accuracy (with Reckless Assault), which produce more crits by default, i think it's good enough for Rogue." => My problem with this is that most of this rate is not specific to rogues. Any class can get most of this bonus. Furthermore, my suggested change was not because I think rogue does not have enough crit, but because I find Dirty Fighting a bit weak. 20% Hit to Crit for 1 ability and 1 talent is not that great... "For me, the most annoying thing for rogues is the fact that all abilities giving invisibility end the combat when you solo. There should be always a 20-30s timer before the combat stops if the enemies can't continue to fight." => Totally legit comment. I'm adding it to my general changes list ^^ "Finishing blow per encounter" => Yeah, maybe. Making it 2x per encounter will make it too powerful in my opinion. Making it 1x per encounter won't really buff the rogue. The main problem for Finshing Blow for me is that it works the best when the target is almost dead, which it makes it annoying to use. However, multiplicative damages buff is rare enough to be noticeable. I think something like 1x per encounter 2x damages against target under 50% Endurance (x3 with Talent) would be a very nice revamp. (and unconditional Full Attack, +5 Acc and +50% damages as it is now) "I think shadow step currently provides 0% damage (the same +20% damage modal used by reckless and savage attack. )" => Good point. Given that Reckless Assault don't stack with Devotion for the Faithful Acc bonus either, it's a bit too much non-stacking issue. I'm going to edit my Shadowstep Proposal the following way : - No more Damage bonus. - Not cancellable invisibility instead (so it's really a Shadow Step) - Maximum Duration reduced to 6s for balancing purpose. Smoke Cloud change suggested by Mosspit : Seems quite a big change for me. Not likely to happen and maybe a bit complicated for my taste. However, an additional 3s non-cancellable invisibility would be nice. I'll add that to my change suggestion list. Shadowing beyond : I don't know what could be done for this one. Making it 2x per encounter will make it too powerful in my opinion. Making it 1x per encounter won't really buff the rogue. It also slide backstab in favor of big weapons So probably shifting it to 1x encounter with 6s not cancellable invisibility would be a good compromise. EDIT: Thinking twice, this one is over the top. Cumulating with suggested change for Feign Death, Shadow Step Smoking Cloud and Shadowing beyond, it results in 21s (+%5 per INT) invisibility + Backstab per encounter. it is a bit to much. So simply making it 1x per encounter is enough in my opinion. Shadowing Step, Smoking Cloud and Feign Death not cancellable invisibility should be enough to make the Rogue Great Side note : Not cancellable invisbility should be buffed by INT anyway. Their low duration can be worked around with the right build. High INT Rogue feels nice Lore-Wise, and would also benefit froma deep wound buff.

Well, for me, it's normal if a rogue don't lead in total damage output compared to AoE damage dealer. I can't see a rogue getting more kills than a (Dragon Slashed) chanter. But they should be the best for priority target elimination, as it is the purpose of Single Target damage dealer.

Gratulacje !

"Eyeless may cry"

This thread became in a discussion about why Rogue are still UP ( https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/90435-player-returning-from-launch-wants-basic-info/ ), Here is a good summary of the problem from another poster : So I decided to create a new thread about possible rogue changes. This also because my previous one ( https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/85541-the-rogue-and-barbarian-polishing-thread/ ) seems to have ended pretty successfully when patch 3.03 was released I suppose it would be a bit late for this kind whining if PoE2 wasn't under development. I guess these changes could be seen as an investment And PoE is still patched from times to times, so... why not ? So my suggestions are below. The idea is that low level abilities are quite OK after patch 3.03. I'm still pleading for a few tweaks, but nothing big. The major changes are for high level ones : Shadow Step and Feign Death. ----- General Changes : Distracted should be listed as Sneak Attack Triggering conditons. Health : Buffed to Endurance x 5. Rogue is supposed to be a martial class. All martial classes have at least x5 health multiplicator. Low Deflection and Endurance is enough hindering for Rogues in my opinion. Currently, rogue is too often the cause of resting, which I find annoying. It would also be an indirect convenience buff for Riposte rogues... EDIT: Invibility shall not immediately stop a fight. ----- Abilities Changes : Crippling Strike : No change Blinding Strike : No change Reckless Assault : No change Escape : No change Dirty Fighting : good ability but lowish numbers Especially compared to One Handed Style recent change (abilities are supposed to be better than talents). Even if One Handed Style is conditionnal. 15% Hit to Crit would be good. (10% Hit to Crit for vicious fighting is enough in my opinion) Riposte : With the current system, it's better to be grazed than missed. Riposte occurence has been described to be a bit too low by the ones who tested it since 3.03, so I think 30% of Riposte for Graze AND Miss would be OK. Finishing Blow : EDIT : The main problem for Finshing Blow for me is that it works the best when the target is almost dead, which it makes it annoying to use. However, multiplicative damages buff is rare enough to be noticeable. I think something like 1x per encounter 2x damages against target under 50% Endurance (x3 with Devastating blows) would be a very nice revamp. (and unconditional Full Attack, +5 Acc and +50% damages as it is now) Deep Wounds : Deep Wounds should stack with themseves. Currently, its damages are very low, escpecially at high levels. Adept Evasion : No change Coordinated Positioning : No change Persistent Distraction : No change (refer to distracted changes) Withering Strike & Fearsome Strike : There have been changes in patch 3.03. That's good but I still find them too weak for their level. My suggestion is simply to make them available at level 7. (This is also to make them consistent with Sap change below). Deathblow : No change Smoke Cloud : EDIT Add 3s of non-cancellable invisibility on Rogue. (also refer to distracted changes) Sap : Okayish, but still too high level compared to its effect. My suggestion is simply to make it available at level 9. Shadow Step : Here comes the great deal. Rogue lack great High level abilities. Let's change this ! EDIT: So, Shadow Step should give non cancellable invisibility for the time it is active instead of +20% damages. Maximum Duration reduced to 6s. Reminder : Backstab bonus damages are applied during invisibility. So it's a big change. Other classes also get some incredibly powerful stuff at high level (Immolation and Twin Arrows noticeably), so I can't see any reason why Rogue wouldn't get something juicy. And Rogue should be the specialist for Spike Single Target DPS anyway. Feign Death : The ultimate Rogue ability, yeah. 10s of auto-incapacitation for an offensive class is not good. Make the Prone Duration Cancellable like Shadow Step has been suggested several time on this forum, and I think it's the best way to improve it too. (Make it fast cast instead of instant cast to avoid abuses). It would also be more reallistic this way. Reminder : Backstab bonus damages are applied during invisibility. This Invisibility is not cancelled by attacking. ----- Talents : EDIT: Shadowing Beyond : Change to 1x per encounter No changes to other talents. That's all. Don't hesitate to make remarks or to suggest additional changes. The point is : the more "reasonnable" is the suggested change, the more likely it is to actually happen.

Eyeless are not that much of a big threat. They have low will defense which make them very vulnerable to mental binding for example.

That would be great. But we have to keep in mind that this is a mid-budget game. It's probably too expensive (and probably won't be translated as a further limitation).

An Eder spin-off could be fun. He would be a good western character. "And the bad guys found that Reverand Eder from the Eothas parish was in reality a retired hero..."

Early : probably barbarian Caster are still limited by their spell selection. Against low DR, Chill Fog is incredible though. Mid : Wizz or Druid You start getting a lot of good AoE spell. Late : chanter, the melting machine. Wizz are excellent too, but a bit less convenient (never tried freezing rake in a corridor ?). Barbarian Heart of Fury still has an edge for spike AoE.

Well, there have been a ton of discussions about which class is balanced or not for a bunch of time. The point with Rogue is that they don't have enough Pros to make up for their Cons. Boeroer himself has been a great advocate that the right builds and fitting your playstyle is more important than the raw power of a class. However, for me the general consensus about endgame class balance has been the following (which seems to be not only my opinion, but what is heard the most frequently) : - Vancians are a bit Overpowered when Rest Spamming OR during Boss Fight (where you've usually freshly rested). - Priest are hard to replace, but are totally replaceable. - Rogue is a bit behind the other classes, for the reasons stated above. Patch 3.04 reduced the gap, but not enough. - All classes are currently far more balanced than in the beginning, and the gap between classes is not that big. Side note about Rogue : Early game, they are really great as #1 Single Target DPS, rivalled only by Druid. However, given the tediousness of early encounters, Spiritshift is likely to not last long enough. Rangers don't have all their goodies early game. It's true many people (including me) focus on endgame, and forget how great is Rogue's early Game. Increasing Rogue's Single Target DPS a bit more (endgame) would be good. But they don't need that much to be great. In my opinion, Rogue's emphasize on Spike Single Target using dirty tricks (like Backstab, Feint, Poison, Combos) would be better than adding AoE capabilities (which other classes already do).

Hehe I was actually planning a mixed Striker and Support. For example, the +10 Party Deflection bonus from Shieldbearer seems more attractive for me than a twice +25% Lash / +50% DoT Lash from Bleak Walkers or Goldpact's. ------- Island Aumaua Shieldbearer Backrow Support and Ranged DPS Might : 21 Con : 10 Dex 13 Per : 10 Int : 16 Res : 8 Abilities : 1 FoD 3 Zealous Endurance 5 Sworn ennemy (Puts Paladin on "Cipher level of damages" against 1 target, planning to use this for constant DPS with wand) 7 Reviving Exortation 9 Coordinated attack (So good with all these marking weapons) 11 Lay on Hand 13 Sacred Immolation (still good if you position on second row, especially with a rather high Int.) 15 Inspiring Triumph Talents : 2 Shielding Flames 4 Marksman 6 Quick Switch 8 Penetrating shot (Good for Wand, Switching weapon bypass recovery anyway) 10 Arms bearer 12 Scion of Flame 14 Intense Flame 16 Deep Faith Planned endgame Weapons (from various categories, which explains absence of Weapon Focus): 1 Dulcanale (alpha strike, quick switch to pliambo) 2 Pliambo (beta strike, marking) 3 Cgadob's Hazel (dual damage types, marking) 4 Shame or Glory + Outworn Buckler (backup melee, marking) (I guess any 1 hander or Blade of Endless paths would work too) The idea is to use FoD Twice with the gun powder weapons, then switch to Wand. Wand enables more DPS over time and allow supporting any ally with an instant +20 Acc bonus from range. Against very high DR target, you might prefer using Pliambo instead. I don't know if it's optimal, but I believe it's a good mix of Support, Pike Damage, Constant Ranged DPS and even AoE with Sacred Immolation). I like my builds to be quite versatile. The good thing with Paladin is that they can do many things at the same time. They are beasts at action economy. Many of their support abilities is passive or triggered. Sacred Immolation is Passive once cast. They even have an almost instant revive ! Dirty Bonus Trick : Pause, switch target, the Marking/Coordinating bonus is instant ! It applies to the nearest "ally attacking the same target". Not to "nearest ally" "if attacking the same target". So it's quite reliable, and switching between supported allies is very easy.

Sure, though instant-cast no-ressource +20 Acc is great, rogue has probably better potential. However, Deathblow is not that easy to trigger. Well, it's not hard neither but it's probably won't be up 100% of time. To be honnest, my idea was that fighter can do this job in a more convenient and reliable way for my own tastes. After all, "reliable" is fighter's second name. Basically my idea was to use items like White Crest (and Swaddling Sheet). Even 1 per rest, the idea of a 30+20 "base" Acc Overwhelming Wave feels pretty crazy. Especially because positionning a Fighter on a frontline wearing a Full Plate is far easier than doing it with a Rogue. I'll try and share my results ^^

I'm currently tending to think Fighter would make an overall better scroll and charge item users (even if inferior for pure damages). Disciplined Barrage has crazy potential with Paralysis or Confusion scrolls. I'm currently planning such a Build for my next run ^^

What happened to rogue? It used to be the best single-target DPS and therefore very useful on a team.In addition to what Boeroer says, ranger and his pet were tremendously buffed. Ranger got an ability to shoot 2 arrows at once. Ranger and his pet currently do damages on par with melee Rogue in optimal conditions (deathblow). Pet is now quite sturdy and its master has nice crowd controls. Rogue don't have all this, can't do as much damages from distance and their positionning is risky. Basically, ranger fills rogue role more reliably and with more utility. Rogue is a one trick pony whose trick is equaled by an another class. However, the gap is not that huge...

"Are you going to take this gun ? - Yes ! - But can you aim ? - No. That's why I use a shotgun !"

Read might be a bit more accurate. Polish is bloody difficult to pronounce.Well, I would say it's probably not the worst eastern language for this. Sure there are some three consonants in a row (noticeably the dreaded "shtsh"), and my wife's godfather's first name sounds a bit like a lightsaber noise, but I feel there are still a tolerable number of vocals. The 7 cases declensions give me a bit of an headache though... By the way, it is fun to consider CRPGs are one of the few stuffs consistently translated in polish. And it seems to date back from before the Witcher...

Agreed with Kaylon. You may hire a priest henchman with the right level. It's not it would ruin your solo run...

Bede mogl mowic po polsku !