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Everything posted by Elric Galad
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(sorry for long post) Endgame Single Class basically get 3 different advantages over Multi ones : - Tier 8 / Tier 9 abilities. - 2-3 PL, which are very significant for some classes and abilities - Additional ressources for their class I think all these advantages shall be taken into account to evaluate the power of Single Class, especially compared with Multi Class. Methodology : I'm rating A, B, C for Tier 8 / Tier 9 / Ressources Gain / Gain from additional PL, and give a global grade. Please take into account that these grades could be subjective and that I will probably fail to take some stuff into account. Tier 8 / Tier 9 : A : Gamechanging, B : Solid, C : Mediocre Ressources : when going Single Class, you miss the huge advantage of a second pool of ressources. Furthermore, your Top Tier abilities often require a ton of this poor single ressource pool. It is a huge concern for me, so I gave following grades : A : OK, B : Mediocre, C : Lacking Basically, I think that casters are A because they have enough cast, and most martial are C because they only get a mediocre +2 ressources compared to the benefit of a secondary pool. Cipher and chanters are C because they don’t really get more ressource by staying Single Class. Impact of 2-3 PL : A : Very Important, B : Significant, C : Barely Nice Baiscally, all casters including Ciphers and Chanters are « A » while martial are between « C » and « B » depending on their activated abilities and passive bonus from PL. This tends to counter balance ressource pool. Overall Grade : A : Some of the best for its Purpose B : Solid for any party, but won't shine as much as a A C : Lacking/Gimmicky Grades : Wizard ; Tier 8 : B Tier 9 : A Ressources : A PL : A Overall : A Priest : Tier 8 : A Tier 9 : B Ressources : A PL : A Overall : A Druid : Tier 8 : B Tier 9 : B. Solid but a bit less than Wiz. Ressources : A PL : A Overall : A-, because casters make good use of new spell slots and PL, but a bit overshadowed by Wiz. Still, Wiz can’t heal/rez/support, so each class has its perks. Rogue : Tier 8 : B Tier 9 : C. Probably B if Vanishing strikes invisibility isn't cancel by attacking. (But still probably cancelled by DoT which doesn't make sense by the way) Ressources : C. The flask is soon going to be empty. PL : B (sneak attack and strikes multiplicative bonus damages are nice for single target DPS purpose) Overall : B-. Ressource pool is the main problem IMHO. Fighter : Tier 8 : B (Clear Out upgrades are nice, Inspired Discipline is OK) Tier 9 : B (nothing that good, a bit everything not that bad) Ressources : C PL : C Overall : B- Monk : Tier 8 : B Tier 9 : A Ressources : B (sufficient because of Wounds, but not much upgraded compared to Single Class) PL : B (fists benefit from it, and lots of ability too) Overall : A- (- mostly because Monk Multis are so tempting) Barbarian : Tier 8 : C (HoF too costly) Tier 9 : A Ressources : B. Ressources on Kill + cheap shout makes barbarian Single feels less the lack of ressource. PL : B (because PL applies to carnage, sshouts ?) Overall : B+ Paladin : Tier 8 : C (because nothing seemsZeal efficient, so you just keep spamming shared flame) Tier 9 : B (Nothing great, but some okay stuff) Ressources : C. Lots of abilities, few ressources. But A if using +2 Ressources on Downed ally with summons. It requires party build. PL : B (lots of activated abilities canbenefit from it) Overall : B-, unless the Summons trick is used. Then B+/A-. Dependancy on a single trick is harsh, but well. Ranger : Tier 8 : B. The Single Target DPS increase from Twin Shots is not good and too short-lived compared to what a Scout Multiclass can bring. The only selling point is that a ranger may combine Single Target DPS with AoE on demand thanks whirling strikes. Even a Ranged Ranger should pick Whirling Strikes to use for some fights. Tier 9 : C (Only Stunning Shot is good for Tier 9.) Ressources : C PL : C (does not even buff pet) Overall : C+/B-. Worst Single Class IMHO. Mostly because Scout does his job better. Cipher : Tier 8 : B Tier 9 : A Shared Nightmare is #1 reason to go Single Class IMHO Ressources : B. Basically every Martial Multiclassed with Cipher is usually going to generate more focus than you. But you get reaping knives. PL : A Overall : A- Chanter : Tier 8 : B* Tier 9 : B Ressources : C. Basically not improved by going Single Class. PL : A Overall : B. Solid, but nothing really gamechanging. *But then, there is this one scimitar… that could raise the overall grade to B+/A-... My (own very personal) Conclusions : I really believe that Single Class have a ressource problem more than an ability problem (even if a couple of abilities/classes might be a bit lacking). Martial Multi get 18 ressources. Martial Single Class get 11 and actually requires more for their abilities. This is a such Huge Gap, even if I get why Multis should indeed get more ressource. I think that a good way to improve Single Class would be to give them a bit more ressource at start or latter (+1/+2 ?). And/Or to give them a Tier 8 / Tier 9 ability that increase ressource or enable some regeneration. Paladin one (Divine Retribution) and Barbarian one (Blood Surge) are good. Ranger and Rogue lack it entirely. Why not 15% Guile Chance on Crit ? 10% Bond Chance on Pet Hit ? Fighter one (toughened fury) is complicated to use (unless you're an "undying titan"), has a low occurence and seems even a bit antisynergetic. Chances on Hit (even if lower) would feel better. Monks don't need that much. Maybe Chanter could get something too. Maybe a song that generate phrase faster but does nothing on its own ? (might be OP on a Troubadour)
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I would argue that the purpose of this topic should be to compare Multi vs Single more than classes between them, and evaluate what the additional PL bring to the class. IMHO the game is already pretty well balanced for Multi Class, each one having its own goodies on Tier I - 7. Which Ranger Ability do you value so high on Tier 9 ? Stunning Shots ? Even with the Synergy with Ranger's high Accuracy, I admit I don't see it that "Gamechanging". I might even consider Whirling Strike to be more "Gamechanging", given that it seems a better Heart of Fury.
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I think there should be a topic dedicated to this evaluation. You should make one. I also think that the question of ressources (e.g. Discipline) for Single Class might also be evaluated by a third grade (or qualitative comment) per class. And also a global grade for the whole Single Class. For example : Wizard : T8 : 8 T9 : 10 Ressources : Sufficient Global Grade : 9,5
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I started this thread because everybody claimed Resolve was a dump stat while it seemed to have nice effects. Truth is, Resolve is umpopular, but not underpowered, and this for 2 reasons : - People prefer attack over defense. - Resolve has increasing returns instead of diminushing ones, which makes it easy to dump and not very interesting to buff just a little. If you want just a bit of defenses, Con >> Res. Now I'm pretty happy to see a build using very high Resolve.
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A forth weapon set of Hatcher and Mace can further debuff -10 Accuracy / -1AR. I feel that your build would is incomplete without them Rod or one of the AoE Blunderbuss + Sundering Blow is also tempting. About the main topic, I feel that a good martial class needs several good abilities and a couple of gamechanging ones to worth it. I think the gamechanging one for Fighter is unbending. With the right stats it makes your character impervious to damages for a duration. I think it is very complicated to argue that Fighters don't worth multiclassing because of this or that another class is "better". In my opinion, it is far more about personal taste and role in party. Even ranger has its perk and doesn't really need love as long as we are speaking multiclass ones. Pet fits certain playstyle, Driving Flight is basically a total damage multiplier and easy access to Interrupt and "Dispel" could be very convenient. Remember Keldorn ? But I think the OP is at partially right about Single Class Fighters. Even with 2.1 buff, their Tier VIII and IX have some good stuff (especially after 2.1) but they are not trully more cost-efficient than lower ones. This is true for basically all Martial classes (Monks having two ressources are a bit less a problem.). Maybe Unbending + Take the Hit could be efficient. Single Classes desperately need more Ressources. I really think this is not only Fighter's problem. Something like +2 at creation and +1 with Prestige would do the trick. Or maybe Single Class could have more consistent tools (such as Toughened Fury) to regenerate their ressources as their defining Trademark.
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I think Martial with Passive and Caster without many Passives is a defining trait for classes. Pure Casters have a lot of active abilities and a lots of cast per encounter. They can't have everything. Furthermore, Casters probably don't need further buff. And Wizard fast self-buff play a bit the role of passive for them. But Baleful version of Salvation of time is a very good idea ^^
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My doubt about ranger and twinned shot is the following : Can you really top the ranged single DPS of a Scout with a Single Class Ranger using Twin Shot ? (given that Scout has all other Ranger goodies such as pet, interrupting/disenchanting shots or these long duration binding root). Spamming 1-ressource Full Attacks with Rogue Bonus damages even after the nerf should be hard to beat, even with Arquebus twinned shot. And it is also more sustainable, so...
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Don't forget about Ranger's/Barbarians with their WW/HoF Just how strong is Melee Ranger Whirlwind ? It adds like 54 raw damages (maybe 63 if it ticks on 0s too) scaling with both INT and MIG over a quite short delay. I've found this build that seems to rely on it : https://www.reddit.com/r/projecteternity/comments/8y9dij/war_dancer_single_ranger_leveling_progression/ It seems to that WW is even superior to Heart of Fury, even if DoT does not seem to stack with itself (so probably not double raw damage with DW). Against single target, Melee ranger can also switch to "I stack accuracy buff" mode and spam its wounding shots with increased accuracy. I suppose pet adds a bit of damages too.
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It is most likely powerful but not that fun in my opinion. You basically get more raw power in exchange of versatility. I tend to feel that Black Jacket concept is more fun, especially with weapon modals. With their recent buff, maybe there would be much more Black Jacket builds. Or maybe not because Devoted builds are more simple to design...
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Outlander frenzy is longer to activate, costs a talent, lasts less, has higher penalties and its additional bonus don't stack with other spells. Activation time and short duration are the most annoying, because it means that you're only going to save a couple of seconds over the duration, minus activation time which eventually is not much. I prefer saving a talent and going potions for the couple of fights which really require them. Plus cat druid comes with a 1/rest instant speed up. If you prefer another shift, I would consider going the Gambiso armor with 1/Rest DAoM. When shifting, all your items are negated, so items that provide a lasting buff are excellemt for such builds.
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v2.1.0 is now available on the Beta Branch
Elric Galad replied to David Benefield's question in Patch Beta Bugs and Support
Are you really suggesting that Fighter has an advantage over Rogue for single target DPS ? Come on, that is only 1 strike and it costs a bunch of discipline. I think rogue still have the proper tools.