Muad'Dib

Interesting selection of suggestions Jag, hard to tell which you are serious and which not. 1) At the moment don't recognize who you mean. 2) Jaja, yeah there's somebody that was missed. 3) I don't mind Wookies and I don't mind not having them but no Ewoks...no, never, ever, EVER!!! 4) Sorely missed from any of the multiple cantinas in either KotOR game. 5) Yep, though I never cared for the swoop game anyway. 6) Jaja, I never disliked Carth, but if they put it in I'm not opposed to it. 7) I'm not for this one; I liked her story and character but not for having her in the party, but if they do put her in I wouldn't complain about it. Agree. 9) No. 10) Absolutely, though they have to find a way to balance all the Force power and feat progression, there's way too much to give a character if you can't level up as fast and so much. Otherwise characters would get virtually no feats or skills upgrades throughout the game. 11) Agree. 12) Goes without saying. 13) Jeje, whatever; in/out don't bother me none...just no Ewoks! I'd love to also see the following. 1) Core planets; I'm sick of the Outer Rim all the time; Coruscant, Corellia, give me at least one! 2) More Prequel races: Zabraks are cool but I want Kel Dor dammit (Plo Koon), Iktotchi (Saesee Tiin), Nautolan (Kit Fisto), and a bunch of others I don't remember their names. 3) Jedi Armor. Yeah I like robes, but I like the idea of being able to use both, I like to for once actually look like a knight instead of a monk and the armor from the comics looked really good. 4) Conclusion to the story. End it before you screw it up beyond repair, if you want to make KotOR 4, 5, 10, then go right ahead; you still got over 3500 years before TPM, plenty of new story and atmosphere to create. But make a grand ending to this particular saga, it deserves better than stagnating one cliffhanger after another. 5) When you actually make a character as cool looking as Nihilis, give him something to do, make that character actually prominent in the story and actually a villain to beat, not a pushover cameo when the guy's face is plastered on the box and has been built up mysteriously in every poster and teaser since the game's announcement. 6) More NPCs. Add some replay value so it's different other than LS/DS. Give me different parties and character combos that make a new game actually feel like a new experience. If I can have 10 npcs with me throughout the game, have a list of 20 or even 30 possibles. Yeah I know how long it will take to do that, but since everyone is expecting a new engine anyway might as well add more things to make 3 better than the previous two. 7) If you're gonna do romances, do them right. Involve the romance into the plot, give the characters a sense they actually feel something for each other, make complications like jealousy or a threat, and my God have the characters kiss, hold hands, anything visually descriptive of emotional attachment that isn't a line of dialogue which is never reinforced by anything else. Aside from closure to the story, an actual cinematic ending to conclude the experience without breaking the feel or pace of the game would be a must for me. My Two cents.

Ok whatever you say, I'm not going to debate you on the matter. Lets just say that for me proof of greatness goes beyond being able to fight with a saber or order a planet bombed, but that's just me. Like I said though, I like Nihilis' Phantom of the Opera look the best of all Sith Lords, especially Resident Evil's Sion. I really wish Nihilis had the prominent role Sion has in TSL and Sion the lousy one Nihilis got. And if Nihilis had been a combo of Palpatine's cunning and Maul's ferocity then he would have been even better for me. Revan, yeah I liked him too. Great cape in the cutscenes, but Revan for me was nothing better than a good general than an actual Sith Lord. Revan hardly conquered the galaxy and even if he had, it would have been only because of the Star Forge.

The following is my opinion based on stroyline preferences, this is disregardiing the leveling issue of the previous games' protagonists and balance of this in KotOR 3. I'd like to see more than anything both Revan and Exile come back as the mains, probably the way Enderwiggin suggested by splitting the adventure into two, one from Revan's perspective with his party and the other with the Exile's which culminates at eh end game when the two parties meet. Of course including all possible combinations; Revan LS/Exile LS, Revan DS/Exile DS, Revan LS/Exile DS, Revan DS, Exile LS. I think it is supremely important for the Exile at least to be the central character of KotOR 3 because KotOR 2 was left without resolution or in the least closure and that story has to be finished, though like I said it'd be much better for me if both were the protagonists that way KotOR 3 could link the previous 2 game to make these 3 a true trilogy. After all, both Revan and Exile are in search of the same thing at the end of KotOR 2. To bring a new protagnist would not work for me for the obvious, only the Exile can resolve the journey he has embarked upon. To have a new guy come up and go looking for the Exile and Revan and what they left to do would simply be reusing the same exact thing KotOR 2 did as Exile goes off to search for Revan. And a new PC would just further detach the stories from each other for me and make me loathe KotOR 2 even more because of the incomplete feeling it gives me and knowing it will never be truly resolved. On the leveling thing I'll just say this, I;d rather have some corny explanation why Revan and Exile are back at level 1 and have the storyline progress and end as it should than have some new PC with a loose tied story pick up the story and make it all seem even more fragmented. For me at least, some new PC starting from level 1 is just as as corny as Revan and Exile having to start from level 1 again, because that's the way it always will be for balance sakes. At least with the lame Revan and Exile starting over idea, I get to have a true trilogy and epic story tied together as opposed to 3 different PCs in different stories just barely connected because of one character being in search of the others and suddenly having to deal with the other's quest simply out of necessity (Since I was looking for you, I might as well do your quest for you now). My two cents.

Nihilis, while your namesake has definately the coolest look of all Sith Lords for me, Palpatine proved to be well much of a greater Sith Lord. Palpatine's cunning and intelligence are much more proof of being great than Nihilis savagery or whatever display of physical strength you may attibute to his greatness. Besides, Palpatine will prove physical strength when he rips Yoda a new one in Ep3. I seriously doubt Nihilis would have been capable of that, particularly considering how easy he falls to the Exile from what I hear.

I completely agree with you Ivan. It would have been much better had KotOR been designed that way. I think Obsidian should have chosen to do this in their story of the Exile even more. While I always wanted to play Revan again since hearing KotOR 2 announced, his/her story came full circle at the end of KotOR. But considering Obsidian's choice of resolution in KotOR 2 or lack thereof, they should have done that with KotOR 2 so that the Exile would be able to complete the story properlly in KotOR 3. They still can have this in KotOR 3 only it will be difficult to achieve a necessary balance considering Exile's strength at the end of KotOR 2.

As I see it, Palpatine kicks the butt of everyone on that list. While every one of those Sith Lords needs to resort to strength of arms or conquest to achieve power, Palpatine got everyone else fighting each other, while still achieving galactic power plus maintaining the appearance of a good guy right in the Jedi Council's face. Vader meanwhile is the strongest of the list, not the greatest Sith Lord, just the strongest of all characters because he is the Chosen that brings balance to the Force. But as far as the dark lords go, for me Palapatine is the greatest.

I like cinematic endings that have conversations and an epilogue narration. I don't mind combining text and cinematic but as that option was not available I definately prefer cinematic. At least for me, it maintains the same atmosphere created from the opening cutscene to those in between. Text based endings just remind me of those old arcade games that simply said congratulations you won at the end. Those always disappointed me.

Considering that with video games, or even movies for that matter, never have a guarantee that there will be a next installment or that the next game will pick up where the last one left off, I'd always like to see a tidy ending. Can they leave room open for the heroes to come back for another adventure? Sure, that's all fine and good, but seeing as games like RPGs suffer from the whole leveling up ordeal which makes it very difficult to reuse the same characters again, I think the story should always have closure. If they want to continue a related story or spin-off like KotOR 2 was to KotOR 1 then that's great, but KotOR 1 had at least closure for its story and characters. Which is why the changeover to the Exile wasn't a problem in that sense, though I wanted to play Revan again because I liked the character, I didn't have a problem with the new one because for me Revan's story was fulfilled at the end of the first game, the Exile is a completely different story altogether and considering how difficult if not impossible it will be to bring the Exile back as the lead in KotOR 3, they should not have done a cliffhanger there imo. Besides, I liked KotOR so much I will buy KotOR 2 regardless that it's a new story or had it been continuing the original. So for me cliffhangers don't mean I'll keep coming back for more, if I like the game to begin with, I'm pretty certain I'll get the next installment. But right now, depending on how KotOR 3 turns out, if it does at all, and how they choose to deal with the story and protagonists, that will be a very important factor in how I will eventually come to judge and like KotOR 2 in the long run. My two cents.

I completely agree with both of you Old Skool and Hades. This is why I am also disappointed with the continuous leveling up, it leaves little if any room for the same character to appear in any sequels which is why I always hope the game will have closure to avoid just this. Yeah Hades, text endings really suck, leaves you expecting there's something more to do or see before the final cutscene kicks in. I really wish they had put in even a lame movie ending like KotOR 1, at least then I'd felt like the game was finished. And no probs Epiphany, it was my mistake in the wording. Should have explained what I meant better.

Thanks for the info Epiphany, I realize you don't start out in level 1 in BG 2, I meant that couldn't KotOR 3 use something similar to what was used in terms of storyline or whatever, except fitting SW, so that the same characters could start from level 1 or similarly lower levels. And I also know you could import the original BG 1 character, but I never played BG 1 so I didn't get to do that, likewise there isn't the ability to import the PCs from one KotOR to another, at least in these two games so I was basing myself on that for the third also. Actually Old Skool Wheelman I don't consider KotOR 2 to have continued the story of the original at all. A sequel does involve the continuation of the story begun in the previous game, book, whatever; however it isn't just the story but usually most if not all of the main characters also continue to play those roles, usually with new additions. KotOR 2 used the events of KotOR to set up the backdrop of its own story, the results of Malak's war created the state the galaxy is in at the beginning of KotOR 2. But they are not a continuation of it since Malak's war ended in the first one. What KotOR 2 is to me is a spin-off, the events occur in the same timeline, there are cameos and a couple of returning original cast members but the main cast is almost all new and the story told itself is brand new. Take as an example any of the Star Trek series where 1 or 2 supporting characters leave one show then appear as mains in the new show, additional to this the new show can have a related story begun in the previous one but in of itself is a new story altogether. While KotOR 2 could get away with this because the original game had closure for its story and cast, the second one does not. KotOR 2 could have happened 500 years after the original with little effect on the actual story. Unfortunately, KotOR 2's end is the set up for the third game the same way ESB's end set up RotJ.

So Hades, would something like what was done for BG 2's protagonist work to bring back Revan and the Exile? Obviously crafted towards the SW style instead of what they used to explain why the character was once again level 1 after whatever level was held at the end of BG 1. Dark Wanderer: I realize that it hasn't been established that KotOR is a trilogy, my suggestion was intended if that were the case. Obsidian's decision to leave the game without closure like that and what I've read in some interviews with Chris Avellone makes me think they intend to at least make KotOR 3 a true sequel to KotOR 2, should they make it. Should they also bring back Revan in a bigger role in the third game then the three games can be made into a trilogy. I'm hoping this will happen. Also if the first three games were made into a trilogy that doesn't mean that there can't be any more KotOR games. There's still over 3500 years between this timeline and Ep1, I'm sure there's plenty of untouched space to continue quite a few new stories. And before this timeline there's plenty of space also, being as the Republic here is 25000 years old. I think KotOR 3 should at the least give closure to KotOR 2 and at the best bring full circle both previous games. Since these two games are constantly compared to the OT, KotOR (ANH) and TSL (ESB), the very least they can maintain continuity in their cast, after all you didn't see new protagonists taking over in ESB and then again in RotJ. My two cents.

Hungry, hungry hippos...LOL! Happy new year everybody.

To the original question I'd say option 2. Considering KotOR 2's ending, I think it is very important from s storyline standpoint to have the pricipal chatacters for KotOR 3 be either Revan, the Exile or as option 2 suggests both which is what I'd prefer. To bring a brand new protagonist would further disconnect the games' stories from each other and establish definitively that this is in fact no trilogy but a loosely linked series of events in the same timeline, that does not make a sequel or a trilogy. Hey Hades: I've been reading the d20 page you sent me thanks for that. While I'm still not too clear on the rules, I do understand what you talk about the original 2 protagonists being too powerful. Do you think it maight work in KotOR 3 if they did something along the lines that was done with the protagonist of Baldur's Gate 2? I don't know if you consider BG2 to be a good CRPG or a bad one, but it was the first real CRPG I ever played and since it used the same protagonist and many npcs from the original could something like that not be implemented so that KotOR 3 could have Revan and Exile as the protagonists? I don't mean exactly the same premise but something like it fitted for the SW universe.

I edited my own post as it was uncalled for, sorry. I appreciate the link to the d20 rules system, I'll be looking it over to see if I can understand how it all works. I only played Vampire 3 times before the group broke up so I really have almost no experience with PnP RPGs, hence my lack of knowledge about the balancing within the rules system. I just want KotOR to become one cohesive and unforgettable story; as it stands, it isn't that. KotOR 3 would be my last hope to tie everything together and make a real story out of it all as opposed to a bunch of loose sub-stories it is right now. That's the reason for my insistance of returning the previous 2 PCs as the protagonists of the third. Story and characters are the most important parts of any game, movie or book for me; and all things considered I find the KotOR games to have the best stories and characters of any SW game. To have a new cast in 3 or not continue the story left open in 2, it would completely diminish the quality of the series extremely for me. I really wish there was a way to implement both what you'd like in balance and what I'd like for story to make KotOR 3 a truly lengendary RPG when and if it's ever made.

I do agree with you in terms of gameplay that the leveling was too high. Obviously I know next to nothing about d20 systems and rules sets, after all the only PnP RPG I ever played was Vampire the Masquerade and only a very few times. So you'll have to forgive me when I don't realize the significance of such systems in an RPG. I figured since your principal grievance was that the party members and more particular the PC were overly powerful compared to the enemies, why not elevate the enemies' stats to balance the PC's strength. Since I haven't a clue how the d20 thing works, I figured making enemies more powerful than where the PC left off might work and since as I've read countlessly this game doesn't use the actual d20 rules system I figured that might solve the inbalance between enemy/player stats. So that can't be done...well excuse me for not knowing. Balance is a very important issue in a game and surely since I lack any real knowledge of how these games and their rules work I can't give a proper and intelligent suggestion. All I was commenting on was the storyline element of the games, I feel that the only way to have a proper KotOR 3 would be to tie up the first two games and create a conclusion to the storyline in the third. To do this, I think it can only be done if the PC is either Revan, Exile or both. All you needed to tell me was that in d20 leveling up enemies to somthing like I said wouldn't work because of the game mechanics or whatever. I'll take a look at the link you provided to see how d20 works.

In terms of gameplay balance I might be inclined to agree with you, that both former PCs are very powerful when considering their roles in KotOR 3. However from a story standpoint, it is necessary for KotOR 3 to have as the protagonists either Revan, the Exile or both. A new PC simply will not work and will firther butcher the storyline into loosely related mini-adventures as opposed to a trilogy, should that be the devs wish to make. So Revan was 20 and the Exile 27, so what? Then make the starting enemies level 30 and keep going up from there, maybe the bosses are 50 or something similar. Wouldn't that solve the problem?

That's a very real possibility Jag, but I like to think of it the way I said it, makes more sense to me. The same thing for Sion and Nihilis, I doubt those were their real names. Ostkant since I have yet to play TSL I won't read what you blacked out, however I am kinda disappointed in the reports that Nihilis' character gets little more than a cameo. I had hoped his role had been a prominent one throughout the entire story. Especially with all the publicity that surrounded him and tight lid of info about him, made me think believe he was going to be a significant part of the story. Real shame there, hate that they chose Sion to have the bigger role, don't like him at all.

dr cloak we know that. You need not say it every single time someone posts something about K3's potential development. Might not e now, but it might be at some point, I think that's what everyone here refers to. Hades, I agree with you in a lot of things. But I can't agree with you that the PC in a KotOR game should not be a Jedi, sorry. I don't mean that there shouldn't be a SW RPG where the PC isn't a Jedi, I agree there should be, just not in the KotOR series. How can you expect the PC not to be a Jedi in a game called Knights of the Old Republic. However, there should be other RPGs made where the option not to be a Jedi should be implemented, I'd like to see that very much. My two cents.

I vote for Ender's idea myself. For KotOR 2's story to work and have any kind of resolution at all, KotOR 3's protagonists have to be Revan and the Exile. KotOR 3 has to bridge both previous games' stories and bring finality to them, only way to do that is to use the previous main characters. Besides, having both Revan and Exile at the same with their respective old and new crews would add immense amount of replay; playing as Revan you can hear of Exile's exploits and these can affect you positive or negative depending on alignment if both parties, then when playing as Exile you get the other side of the journey with the same alternate paths leading up to the final meeting battle with the main villain or villains. Hades, I agree with a lot of things that you say, particularly the game support issues, but I seriously disgree with your persistent desire for a non-Jedi PC in KotOR. Don't misunderstand, I'm not saying that there shouldn't be a SW RPG with a PC that isn't a Jedi or has the option of not becoming one. All I'm saying is that that RPG should not be any of the KotOR series, after all how can you not play a Jedi in a game called Knights of the Old Republic?

All the reported bugs aside, I don't think wanting the game to have an ending or balancing enemies to be more challenging (Especially bosses) was too much to ask. Frankly I feel they delievered below the potential of what the rest of the game was shaping up to be. I don't think anyone was truly expecting KotOR 2 to be revolutionary, they just expected a similar experience to the original and to feel they accomplished something or had their efforts for 50 hours pay off, both for the story and for the PC they created. Since that didn't happen, many were left disappointed. It's a shame but it's the way many people feel about it. I'm sure KotOR 2 is still a great game, it's just a game that leaves a sour taste in your mouth when you finish it. Like me, for some that's enough to damage or even ruin the experience and enjoyment of the other 48 hours of play. My two cents.

Those wooden contraptions are extremely primitive in comparison with the general existing technology, even sandpeople had more advanced equipment. And while Wookies might become Jedi in the EU (ie Lowbacca), in the canon universe GL said Wookies can't be Jedi. Avellone made a remark on this when it was questioned whether Hanharr (Sp?) could be come a Jedi.

God no. I don't think KotOR 3 would work as a MMORPG, KotOR is a stroy driven game, MMORPGs are not. The players make the stories up as they go along, and just get simple quests from npcs or databanks which usually is destroy or kill this. I played Galaxies for 3 months and it was the biggest waste of money ever. Yeah the lags are very bad, especially in the cities and loading times were much worse. Plus since I never really liked MP, I really don't think I want to pay for a full game again and then still have to pay to be able to play it, especially since I can't play games everyday. I wanted Co-Op back when KotOR 1 was announced but after having played the game, I feel Co-Op would not work in a game like KotOR, unless you have 2 protagonists each with their own story. I played BG 2 in Co-Op, my friend never cared for the conversations and since he was lead, he just skipped them my character did nothing except fight, then there were so many periods of not being able to play together that we eventually gave upplaying altogether.

I believe that they just refer to them through their Darth names throughout the game, I don't actually believe Revan and Malak were their true names. There's a possibility that the identity that Revan was given by the council was the actual one of himself before being a Jedi. Meaning when Bastila asks Revan of his/her origins those actually were his/her originas and the name the player gave Revan was Revan's true name. That's how I always saw it.

I'm glad you liked it MastaGAW. Yeah foreshadowing for the movies is alright, but my problem with the ending comes from the lack of closure for the PC among other things. I don't like things left to interpretation, simply because that's all they ever end up as, I never get to see my interpretation in the game so really I'd rather have an ending than just simply imagine one up. Cliffhangers suck for me, I hate any ending that relies on the events that take place in another game afterwards...that is if that game is ever even made at all. You are assuming that KotOR 3 will pick up where KotOR 2 left off, considering that KotOR 2 isn't a true sequel itself, I'm even more skeptical of the choice of leaving the ending that way. Besides, developers can always come up with something new and interesting without having to rely on cliffhangers. If you liked TSL so much it is plain proof of this. Sure they used the events of the first game as a distant backdrop but the characters and story are new, they could have closed the story in KotOR 2 and done the same for a third. If they wanted to bring back the Exile or Revan, or continue a certain element developed in TSL they could have also done this without a cliffhanger. Understand that for me open endings do not add mystery or make me look forward to the next game, instead they make me feel like I just wasted a lot of time to get a "To be continued" or "Congratulations you won", like in the old arcade games. I always look at every game's story as if it where the last one to be made, because a lot of times they are, so to leave TSL in a cliffhanger then KotOR 3 being made about something else would make the ending even more emptier. The ending is about the strongest part of any story for me so when there isn't one or the characters are left in the same or worse place than they started, then the journey taken feels unvalidated for me, especially since everytime I replay the game I know that's what I'm striving for, nothing my character ends up in nothing. Anyway that's just how I see it which is why I'm very disappointed there weren't more endings as originally devs hinted. RotJ was just way too weak for me, and that was even before that horrible dancing sequence in Jabba's Palace, way too weak to be the story that ends the SW saga. Like the reasons I mentioned above, I felt Ep6 was just too dumb and kiddie geared to be the epic finale of the series, especially when compared to the atmosphere and mood of ESB and where that could have gone in RotJ.

What a shame that discussions like these always lead into hostility, hmm guess it could be worse, I stopped by KotOR 2's Lucasarts forums to see if they had any kind of feedback on the Xbox bugs and all I saw were idiots insulting each other because of what coutries they live in. Anywho, I agree sopilers shouldn't be placed in this forum, though I do appreciate Global's opinion of the game, shame it wasn't better. Off topic: Kyle Katarn stopped being cool for me after Dark Forces, particularly the whole bantha herder outfit really got on my nerves. I'm glad I no longer play as him, though I do like very much his transition to mentor and his sense of humor. I like Jedi Academy SP, I wish the story had actually been developed but I see nothing wrong with the plot itself, kinda dumb but definately not more than the previous games in the series. JK2 was a joke in terms of storyline for me, especially with Barney the menacing plush toy. Yep JA's endings were disappointing though they're better than this games as they had some measure of closure (Just my opinion) and at least I found JA to have a vast variety of environments and mission types over the monotonous same thing in JK2 (Again just my opinion). And for everyone that complains about JA and say how JK2 is so superior, I recall the days when all the word was how horrible JK2 was with the 1.3 and 1.4 patches. Then again I could care less about MP so I can't really judge exactly how much worse JA is over JK2 1.4. I do know that the saber system in JA MP is horrible when compared to the system in SP. My chump change.