Muad'Dib

I never pre-order games since it's quicker for me to pick them up the day they arrive than pre-ordering and then having to wait an additional week to get where I live or pay way too much for faster delivery. I did however separate a copy of the game in my local Babbage's (Gamestop as referred to in some places) with $5 I have an assured copy on Feb. 5. Did that way back in June.

I wish KotOR had been as long as BG 2, even if that meant I'd still be playing it. Maybe the levelling would have been more balanced then.

Wow that's a bit harsh...Pues a ellos les gusto mucho el juego no creo que eso sea razon para llamarlos chupamedias, lo siento que no te gusto el juego Sifixs. And I'm a bit disappointed with the turnout of TSL myself as many know already, in case you were wondering. But I'm still sure I'll enjoy the game very much, crap ending and all (Thanks to the devs for PC bug fixes that helps a lot!). However the sample dialogue of Kreia's cryptic speech I have to admit is retarded, nowhere in any of the movies was the dialogue fashioned as nonesensical babble like that. Qui-Gon, Yoda, Ben's riddle-like speeches actually made sense but I truly hope the sample speech provided isn't actually how the majority of the ingame dialogue is or I'll be really ticked off.

Not playing KotOR at this moment as I have way too much to finish through first. Currently dividing my time between Bloodline's multiple endings and Battle for Middle Earth. However I've downloaded 3 tons of goodies that should make my next playthroughs quite interesting and since I haven't played KotOR for well over a year I think I'll enjoy it very much once I do again.

Though I'm not interested in a new engine, I really like your story idea Ender. How about making it a little bit like Aliens vs Predator 2 where every once in a while both groups actually bump into each other, disclosing what that group has been up to in a limited capacity and the actions of one group affect the situation of the other. Then when you play as the other group you'd be experiencing the things you were clued in about in detail. Of course some kind of variations would have to be put in for all the LS/DS choices on both teams: maybe both are light, both dark or one is light and the other dark...if that could be done it would be great and add huge amounts of replayability. And using Revan and Exile together would bridge KotOR 1 and 2 into one cohesive story, making them with 3 a true Trilogy. I'd love to see that more than anything but I won't be holding my breath. I'd also like to see: Jedi armor, true knight-like armor and having helmets in the game. I'd like to visit some Core Worlds for the love of God (Coruscant or Corellia), what's this obssession with the Outer Rim. I'd also love greater npc party numbers, much more than allowed to take to make experience different each time for a while.

Hades: Thanks Leia in slave outfit forgot that one, yep that was pretty good though I like Natalie Portman more than Carrie Fisher. I didn't like the throne room battle sorry, kept getting interrupted by Luke with his search your feelings father discourse so it would bring me out of it every time he switched his darn lightsaber off. The space battle was alright but aside from one very brief sequence where a Nebulon-B Frigate and a Star Destroyer exchange fire, there wasn't any capital shop warfare so for me that space battle is extremely disappointing. C-3PO always was cool for me so I'll give you that also. But there is too much I dislike about RotJ over the very few things I like to feel differently about the movie. Sorry. AlanC9: I'm glad you like that kind of ending, I'm a little suprised you like that the character ends up in nothing but maybe that's your thing. However I don't, to me there's nothing worse that you can do to a story than to leave it unfinished. It is disappointing and makes me feel like the entire journey was completely pointless since there's no resolution at all for the story or for my character. Again, just the way I feel about it, glad you enjoyed it so much. But I much would have preferred having more endings in there so for those that wanted the open ending could get it while those that wanted closure could get that as well. Adds replayability imo when you know you can get a different ending in another playthrough which doesn't involve alignment and aren't going to end up unsatisfied or empty because your character ended in limbo at the end of a supposedly epic journey.

I agree that it would be a large undertaking to wrap things up in a third installment. It wouldn't be impossible, if part 3 were to bring a conclusion to the story they'd have to make a great variety of alternate paths to different endings so that everyone would eventually see the ending they wanted. It's not as much a difficult process as it would be time consuming, to put in so many variations would keep the game in development for an extended period of time than it would if it were to get the same old lame 1 ending for LS and 1 for DS. Which btw, it was hinted by the devs that there were more than just 1 ending in each side in TSL, the fact that there isn't is also a big source of disappointment. As to what's wrong with RotJ...well this of course is subjective to your tastes. Personally, I feel about RotJ the same way many people feel about TPM. Of all SW movies (Except 3 which I haven't seen yet) RotJ is the second worst SW movie for me just behind Ep1, and Ep1 at least has some redeeming things for me (Maul, Qui-Gon and Duel of the Fates). The only thing I like about RotJ was Yoda and Vader being redeemed that's it, pretty much everything else I disliked. For me the best and only truly good saber duel in the entire OT was the battle between Luke and Vader in ESB. Don't think I'm criticizing your view of RotJ, this is how I feel about it, I'm glad you liked it.

Excuse me for saying so Laozi but that is a fairly unthought out statement to make considering KotOR has never been established as a trilogy in terms of storyline. While the devs have continously referred to a comparison with ESB it has been done so for the overall atmosphere or darker nature of the story, not because it was the middle part of the story. When you come to think of it, KotOR 2 only uses the story of the original as a backdrop for its own, it does not continue it. I am in full agreement that KotOR 2's ending is disappointing and unfulfilling. Even in ESB you knew where the ending was going, with Lando and Chewie going after Han and scheduling a meeting with Luke there when he arrives later as they agree in their chat before the Falcon jets off. Since this is not a trilogy, I like many others feel this game should have had closure to the story and the characters. The devs can always come up with something for a third installment and like I've said many times before, unless the 3rd game actually makes the party with both the Exile and Revan and mixes these crews, there will be no linking between the 3 games to make one cohesive trilogy, especially if like in this game, the devs opt to make a brand new PC and party altogether. From what I understand the ending here is completely vague. I recall the first previews saying you'd learn Revan's fate, well apparently not so from what this ending delivers. There were mentions that you find out what happens to all your party members after the game ends...also up for debate considering some postings I've seen. And it is very presumptious to assume a 3rd game will give any resolution at all to the entire story. This game's ending has drawn a lot of comparisons to the ending of Planetscape: Torment...with that in mind, was there ever a Planetscape: Torment 2 which brought resolution to that story? Because if there was I never heard of it and that storyline and characters just went up in smoke staying with their open-ending. And that to me, completely ruins the story of the game, so unless a KotOR 3 really forges a bridge between the first two games, and brings a conlcusion to the entire story (Which I doubt) then KotOR 2's ending will remain unstisfying and pointless. Oh and if you really believe they are using the OT to draw parallels with the KotOR games then that would mean KotOR 3 would be a counterpart to RotJ which would make it the worst of all 3. The concept of an Ewok equivalent in KotOR frightens me in levels I never thought possible, and also using the Star Forge 2...God that would seal the coffin in KotOR at least for me. Just my two cents.

Basically a reverse of what's going in in the first 2 games? Is that what you mean Darth Sun_Tzu? Well the only way I see the story being saved somehow would be by bringing Revan and the Exile back as the party leads, that way bridging the gap between 1 and 2 and making it a true trilogy. With old and new party members, hopefully a bigger story, much more options and ways to mix the party (Say you have a total of 30 possible npcs and can only take 10 through the game) and definately very different and versatile endings: Happy Ending Evil Ending Tragic Ending (Hero dies) Sad Ending (Different from tragic as Hero doesn't die here) Neutral Ending Misc Endings However I doubt KotOR 3 will be like this so I'm not holding my breath.

That might indeed be the case Hades. Who knows at this point, I just a dev would comment on the bugs, the endings, or any of the other grievances that have been raised here since the Xbox release. Their apparent disappearance into NWN 2 really worries me in the expected turnout for the PC version. You know I hate the ending, but if it was at least bug free and there was some sort of gurantee (Which there isn't) KotOR 3's story will find a way to fix and meld the 2 then maybe my disappointment in KotOR 2 would diminish at least some of it. But the silence is deafening.

Sure no prob Stargate. I have no idea what's going on with KotOR 3 beyond that, if anything at all. I guess we'll all have to wait to see what happens, especially after february. Then we'll know about the kind of fallout KotOR 2 has for a third installment.

According to the news bit the entire inhouse development team for KotOR 3 was eliminated not some. However there were no indications as to why this was done or if they were collaborating with someone else.

Considering the vast majority of Obsidian's team has gone to NWN there is a very real possibility that there has been no significant bug fixes in the PC version and that the 2 month period is being handled by a skeleton crew overseeing the port from console to PC. It is definately a concern for me though at least I do have the possibility of resolving issues with patches, it annoys me though to have to think they will just push the buggy game out the door and then decide to fix it later with patches if at all since everybody is concentrating on NWN now. I never really ran into any bugs with KotOR but the sheer number of problems reported in this game are staggering. Some things like lags and memory or processor related issue will at least not be as big a problem so all I really need to worry about is the partially removed side quest, any crashing bugs or bugs with visuals and movies or dialogue trees if any are there. About the ending I don't think there's a need to replace it, but I do wish there was another better ending included in the PC version. I know it won't happen since that would require tons of work to make new paths through the game to the new ending so I'm not expecting anything like that. I am however VERY disappointed with Obsidian's decision to use the open or cliffhanger ending, especially since there might not be a 3 or at least maybe 3 doesn't pick up where this leaves off and goes with a new story altogether leaving this up in smoke, it can happen. If anything here would really have a lick of a chance to make a difference I might sign it, but I know it won't. I just hope KotOR 3 doesn't disappoint me as much as this one has already, this series of SW games looked to be my favorite now I'm not so sure anymore.

You could be right of course, I have no idea whether the fact that KotOR 3 would be for Xbox 2 would have an effect on the engine issue but I pressume it very well could. Nevertheless, those are the reasons why I feel they shouldn't ditch the "old" engine just yet to respond to the original post in the thread and subsequent discussion. Really whether any one of us wants a new engine or not I doubt there will be any impact in that decision when it comes down to it by the devs and publisher. Oh and I'm sorry, I think in PC terms not Xbox since that's what affects me. While Xbox 2 might have the impact in engine selection you mentioned, for PC that issue isn't a factor, at least in those terms. As I already said, new engine just means I'd probably have to upgrade my comp yet again and no thanks, Doom3 and extremely high graphic games of these last 2 years have already proven they are not worth the insane amounts of money in PC upgrades as they almost always end up being just ok or bad games with pretty graphics, hardly any standouts at least for me.

Well in my opinion I have to say that I'm with GhostofAnakin 100%. While others may disagree I hardly believe that the KotOR engine which has to my knowledge been used in only 2 games is old, unuseable or scheduled for replacement. Would I like for facial expressions? Sure. Better graphics? Great. However in terms of KotOR I just don't really care if it has those things. I have Bloodlines and the whole facial expression thing was so overrated that when I actually got it I was like this is it? This is the incredible ultra-realistic facial expressions I kept being nagged about preview after preview? I can notice expressions. but no more than in a cinematic sequence from other games. I feel they should actually work out all the bugs that have plagued the engine in the past 2 games and refine it to the best of its abilities for KotOR 3. I'm so sick and tired of this demand and expectancy that every time a sequel or new game comes out it has to have a brand new engine, we are reaching prepostorous levels of biblical proportions. Whenever new engines are made it just mean a whole boatload of bugs and for certain another additional mountain of cash being spent so I upgrade my PC just to be able to play that game. (See Doom3, Half Life 2, etc). So like Ghost suggested a few pages back, I feel the devs should keep the original engine for KotOR 3, refine it, polish it. work out all the bugs. And then, movbe onto a new engine after the KotOR Trilogy is complete and if there's an actual need for it. Besides as unsatisfying as the endings in KotOR 2 are to me, I really don't want to wait 3 to 5 years for a new engine which will only mean that it's an untested and unrpoven engine making its maiden voyage in KotOR 3 and completely filled with a whole brand new set of bugs up and down. Stick with the old at least for 3, then replace if another game is made whatever that maybe. KotNR? *shudders*...the mere thought of that sends a cold chill down my spine. My two cents...

Although I'm not really interested in seeing things like a new engine if they decide to do that to fine with me, some things I'd really love to see in KotOR 3 though: 1) Like Ghost, a PC/Xbox simultaneous release. 2) Multiple endings, and by that I mean well over 1 for each alignment, maybe 2 or 3 each depending on how different you can make the game play throughout. 3) Closure to the Revan and Exile storylines thus actually making the KotOR games into an intertwined trilogy. This is probably the one I'd most look forward to. 4) Revan and Exile as PCs with combined old and new party members. Using the movie formula introduced in TSL; while Revan is off doing one thing Exile can be elsewhere doing another as well as other party members. 5) Large scale Jedi vs Sith saber battles, a couple at least. 6) Jedi armor like that shown in the comics, and that it actually looks like knight armor so we can have a nice option of switching between the armor and robes through the game. 7) Helmets. I really would like to see helmets I can use with different armors and such. More party members than allowed to take. By this I mean that if you can have 10 party members through the game, you have an option of like 20 overall (Number can vary as desired). That way each time you play you can make different combos. 9) More Prequel Trilogy races; yeah I like the OT races as much as the next guy (but I'm kinda tired of seeing Twi'leks and Rodians and the same species in every planet) I really want to see more of Zabraks and the inclusion of Kel Dor, Iktotchi, Nautolans, etc. Well this is some of the stuff I'd like to see.

Well nightcleaver here's why I feel this way about the ending: And knowing that every time I am going to end up in this same place (DS ending not withstanding) is depressing to me and makes me feel like the time spent is worthless, as I do not receive a payoff in the end. So that's at least how I feel about it and why.

Funny you should say that Planar Jedi...funny indeed... And to devs that keep setting up sequels at the ends of the games that came before...Stop that! That really pisses me off. You can always come up with a new situation for the characters of the previous game in the new one, and if you're clever enough you can take something from the previous game and twist it into something wicked in the new...you know where you go this guy was behind it all in the previous game or this person was evil all along?? Or something like that. But stop that teaser cliffhanger unfinished story ending nonesense, those really ruin your games for me. In situations like that I can't even play that game again until the next one with the ending to the whole story actually comes out because how unsatisfied the previous game left me feeling. And usually those endings never even live up to what the previous game was building up...like most movie trilogies. These endings don't leave me wanting more (Why? Because if I liked the game to begin with I would buy the sequel regardless of any setup in the game before) all it does is make me like the current game less because of an incomplete ending. Especially when games are 40-50 hours long.

It's not so much the fact that it isn't a super happy ending as it is the fact that the ending leaves you unsatisfied. Now don't get me wrong, I wouldn't mind a "happy" ending at all, with all the everyday crap I have to deal with and since bad endings have been the fashion (In movies and whatnot) for the past few years I think a little peace of mind would be just fine with me. I don't mind at all that the game has this ending in it, however I am very disappointed that it appears to be the ending player's get in LS. The DS ending is sure to be bad enough, why do I also want an ending in the LS that just leaves me depressed? And replayability? Why would I want to play again a game I already know will leave me feeling empty at the end and with a complete sense of non-accomplsihment. To me an ending such as this makes me feel like why did I play this? At the end I felt no better than I did at the beginning, if not worse? Endings, especially in RPGs, should be developed over the course of the decisions made ingame. If this game had multiple endings (As devs hinted at but I can't as of yet get confirmation) where you can at least get a "happier" or more fulfilling ending in the fate of the PC and company then there would be no problem. But playing the game over again knowing each time I'll get the same thing is just depressing. And didn't the people of Obsidian also make PS:T and Fallout? If they used similar endings there, are they just recycling the same ending in every game? That's very unoriginal. And I also don't really agree with the statements that the PC's actions in the past overshadow the action in this game. Also considering Obsidian's choices into making the game, unless KotOR 3 picks up right where this left off and uses the same PC and crew (Difficult since we supposedly know the fates of all at the end of the game) then why set the ending up this way? It's a shame we don't have at least the option to get an ending with closure and satisfaction for our troubles, this only makes the journey ingame meaningless.

Oh no need to apologize at all Tainted Mustard, I'm glad I know this because it wouldn't then been the extreme disappointment I would have felt had I played the game and really loved it. Believe me you did me a favor. Again unless there are more than 2 endings as some devs hinted, then it might just be best for me to stick with the original only. The ending was kinda lame but at least there was closure in it and I felt good about where my character ended up. Too bad, I had real high hopes for this game.

I never played PS:T Althernai so I can't make a contrast but at least from what I just read before the editing went into highgear I am seriously reconsidering buying this game like you. Unless the speculations that there were more than 2 endings turn out to be true, the confirmed LS ending I just read virtually killed the story for me. I've got a few months to think whether I really want a game that will leave me as unsatisfied as I know now the ending will be for me. I guess asking for games to have inspired endings is a lot to ask for these days, damn I hate these Children of Dune-like endings.

Thanks for the answers Ivan. I still have to wait till Feb to get the game but it is truly disappointing to hear the result of the game will leave such an empty impression. Even if everything up until that point was grand, a disappointing ending will really ruin the game for me, the original had a quasi-lame ending but at least it wasn't an ending that disappointed or depressed me. And if the ending is anywhere near what Tainted Mustard just described (And man I hope that was the DS because if that's the LS) then I'll really hate it to the point where it might not be worth it for me. I want replay value and if the endings I'll always end up with just are empty and depressing I might as well not buy the game because it will only leave me completely unsatisfied with the game. I'm gonna have to consider this game now, a real shame since of all the games between this last summer to next this was the game I was most looking forward to. Thanks for the reviews!

That is very disheartening to hear Ivan. There's nothing worse for me than a great story that has a disappointing or anticlimactic ending. However weren't there supposed to be more than the 2 alignment endings? I mean more than just 1 ending for light and 1 for dark? I know it was never confirmed but if there are more than 2 endings maybe one of these will be more satisfying than the one you saw...one could only hope. Also would you say the ending was better, worse or same as the original's ending? I realize that the endings might be disappointing for different reasons such as the original which was kinda lame in that kiddie ewok dancing sort of way and maybe the ending here is just incomplete or something to that effect (I hope not though, I hate cliffhanger endings or endings with no resolution to the story). But how would you compare the ending to that of the original?

Sorry for the long post, here's another one: Like I said, this is just my opinion. I can understand where the appeal for something totally new comes from for both devs and players. But just because you want to deliver something fresh doesn't mean you need to scrap the characters from the original. Mind you I'm not saying I didn't want any of the new party members replaced by originals, I said I would have liked the choice to be able to bring the originals should I have wanted to or make a mixed party of new and old characters as I saw fit. I feel that this would add much more replayability to the game for me because of all the additional quests, dialogues and character developments that would have been provided by that opportunity. And when you consider the possibilities of the kinds of combinations of mixed parties you could ultimately make then even more would the game be guaranteed to stay in my hard drive. Not only would the game be different because of the alignment, sex and ending you create, but your crew and experiences with them would not be quite the same for quite the long time until you had combined every single party in every single alignment, etc. As far as the time involved in making the game, naturally it would have taken much longer to make the game with all the different possibilities by mixing the old crew with the new. So what? As much as I want to play KotOR 2 I wouldn't have minded the wait at all if I knew just how much replayanility I would get because the game can be so different every time I start new. Darth333: I don't think I'm complaining, I am expressing disappointment in the decision to not add something I would have liked to have seen and experienced. I have at no time judged the game or even criticized the devs, but Chris Avellone was thoughtful enough to make a post on this issue so I'm expressing the way I feel about it and only this...I have not commented on the game's story arc or new characters at all, nor would I for I haven't much clue as to how they will play out. I'm hoping to love this game more than the original which is no small feat for me, although I am a little discouraged after the review's statements about the ending not being strong. Ghost: I know it is a little more difficult to maintain a fresh perspective in continuity in a game than in a movie or book. However, it's not at all impossible. For example: Zelda seems to carry Link's story without problems, Syphon Filter does the same with Gabe Logan, Hitman with the titular character, Baldur's Gate 2 triumphantly combined new party members and old while still keeping the original protagonist, even Kyle Katarn had an extended story within the JK series from Dark Forces to Jedi Outcast as the principal figure and then moved cleverly to a strong secondary character of mentor in Jedi Academy. These are but few examples of recurring characters across series of games. Frankly I don't think it would have been hard at all to incorporate the old characters into the new story, after all the only thing that was supposed to remain intact would be aspects of the character's personalities, I say aspects because as characters they are supposed to grow and can change from the people they once were. RPGs are all about stories and character, and I find it a real shame that we are seldomly allowed to witness the development of such characters and the course of their lives after the original game they are introduced in. The vast majority of the time the originals are scrapped simply to have a new face in the market so you don't believe you are playing the same game all over again. But since I'm interested in the actual story, in the actual characters who they are and how they change, for me I would want to see how the old crew deals with the new story, how they deal with each other and how they deal with the new crew. After all what's point in trying to create an emotional attachment for the player with the characters if they are just replaceable so easily and without importance. Since I liked the old crew, I wanted to continue their journeys and continue to explore them as characters, and again including the new ones as well, I'm not advocating the same crew and that's it. I can understand if you don't agree, what most people are interested in is the game itself; what worlds will we see, what monsters will appear, what scheme will the villain attempt. I'm looking forward to that myself very much, but I'm also all about stories and characters; as wonderful and intriguing as the new ones may be, I was introduced to a group just as wonderful and intriguing in the first game, I would have loved to seem them grow as I saw Luke or Han grow during the course of the OT, the creation and evolution of a world and characters that's what fascinates me. So I'm disppointed I can no longer venture with these old friends and watch them as the story of their lives continued against the backdrop of whatever crisis the galaxy faced that particular week. Anywho these are the reasons for why I commented about this, hope you guys understand what I mean.

While I may be in the minority this was one decision that truly disappointed me about this game. While I can understand the desire to take things from a fresh and new perspective, considering the timeline and set of circumstances selected for the story of KotOR 2, I find it a shame that the original cast, at least the principals, are being left to a cameo or small role. Now I'm not complaining that there are a bunch of new characters to choose from to accompany you on your journeys, however after playing games like Baldur's Gate 2 where there was such a broad selection of companions, every time you begin a game you could have new experiences via the banters, quests and abilities of who you chose to mix up. I also find this added much replayability for me with the game, as I never made a party exactly the same twice. I had hoped the same would be said for KotOR 2. Although I know that many original party members could be killed off, since your choices in KotOR 2 dictate how the first game ended I am really really disappointed I don't have the choice of being accompanied by the original party members as I at least feel that they still had much more to provide to the world of KotOR; after all though their personal griefs during the first game might have been resolved, we were just introduced to them. I'd say they are hardly a comparison with characters that have been reused time and again such as Luke/Han/Leia. How I would have loved to see a philosofical discussion of the Force between the PC, Kreia and Jolee. How maybe Bastila now had grown beyond her initial naitivity and arrogance into a compassionate and skilled Jedi. How Canderous views might have changed as a result of his journey with Revan, or not, maybe the experience had turned Canderous into an enemy. Revan's change, how had that affected him/her and his/her companions, would these alter his/her choices in KotOR 2. The droids well, I liked them better then Mission, Zaalbar and Juhani but since they have a role to play anyways there's no real point mentioning them. These are things I was truly hoping to see, for me the story of KotOR is the story of Revan and his comapnions' journeys whether old or new. It would be like ANH had one cast but suddenly ESB replaced them all...or had Exar Kun, Nomi Sunrider or Ulic Qel-Droma been in just one comic book instead of however long they were in the series of TotJ....KotOR 2 just lost the feeling of a sequel for me, instead feels merely like a spin off, however better or worse it may be than the orginal. And the explanation that Revan is not the principal figure anymore because there was a desire to avoid disappointing the players of the original by making a different outcome for him/her than the player's, well hasn't this been done exactly anyways? I mean by sealing a "fate" for Revan in KotOR 2, aren't you going to interfere or change with the vision the player had of Revan before? While you can choose Revan's alignment and ending in the first, having Revan appear as a cameo or integrate his/her fate to the story you still change whatever the player previously wanted. If Revan's actions lead to his/her demise then those of us who don't want to see that happen will not be happy, if Revan lives then those that want to see Revan go out in a blaze of glory or evil display of cruelty will be disappointed. My point is, I don't see the reason given circumventing player's wishes as Revan will end up having a specific fate whether or not it is what the players want to see. I'm not saying I wanted the game to force you to choose the same companions again, but at least have that choice if you wanted to. Of the very few dedcisions made for KotOR 2 that I was disappointed in, this was by far the greatest. My two cents.