Muad'Dib

K2 being more fun than K1 is relative to your tastes Grand_Commander13. I for example did not have half as much fun in K2 as I did in K1, but that is because of my own preferrences. The same can be said of the story, some feel K1 was better some K2. it's all a matter of taste. I've played K2 only once and my interest in the game rapidly fades, the only hope I have for it is the restoration project and even with the cut content the story and the adventure is less engrossing to me than the original. As for K3, if it is made which looks to be no time soon if ever at all, I'll have to consider carefully all of the elements K3 brings to the table before I purchase it. Depending on who is the main character, where the storyline goes, if the game is finished, how polished it is and if it has an ending will all deeply affect my decision to buy K3.

I was more disappointed in the overall experience than satisfied. So I voted no. I do like the game, but even with the potentially restored content I find it only to be a good game not a great game. Fact is the game hasn't even motivated me to play it more than once, at first I was waiting for the patch which now I hear brings more bugs than fixes and now I'm waiting for the restored TC to play my second game and any others. The game was what I expected mostly, I was severely disappointed in some storyline decisions which I feel are cop-outs and done to force the game to go in a specific direction (Kreia and the Dantooine Council). For being the most high value target hunted by the Sith, they barely showed up ingame or made me feel threatened. As characters the villains were superb, still the way they wrre used (Or underused in case of Nihilus) just sucked and the encounters with them were about as anti-climactic as playing Pong. The ending was the worst I've seen in any game I played, they might as well have put just a screen saying congratulations like the arcade games of old. Loved the darker tone of the game but in the end the overall story was less interesting to me than the original's, particularly the "twists". The areas of the game wrere so devoid of details; plants, fountains, statues, deskes, beds, paintings, anything that indicated this is a real world with a rich history and a place were actual people live (Especially Trayus Academy with its 700 empty rooms) that it disconnected me from the game on continuous occasions. G0-T0, I need not say more on this. Hate any story that depends on another in order to finish; so the choice of a cliffhanger really hurt my liking of this game. Especially concerning the dilema of how the story could pick up in K3 with the PC sop powerful etc. Overall the game was enterntaining but only just, and the last 30% of the game (Starting in the return to the Dantooine Council) was tedious, uninspiring to play, uneventful, rushed and disappointing. This really affected my overall appreciation of the game, much potential and good effort but for many reasons I don't think it lived up to the precedent set by the original. My two cents.

So this is the first of a couple of patches soon to be released? One for the movies, another for the music? Or at least another patch for both movies and music? Sounds good. But ah I don't see the fixes for my main two bugs here: 1) The dialogue skipping, especially with T3 for some weird reason but not just him. 2) Several conversations, the character talking to the PC looks away and you only see them from the back as they talk. (Atton anytime in the Ebon Hawk, the Telos guard in Citadel station announcing the Czarka or Ithorian visitor via monitor, etc). Are there plans for another bug fix patch sides this one that might address these issues? Thanks for the patch Obsidian.

I'll admit I'm not one to know a lot about EU but what the hell is an Imperial Dark Jedi? Is that like a Sith or is it like the cheesy villains of the JK series which were basically Siths commanding Imperials? No offense Nur, I really want to know what that is.

Well I haven't a clue what that is Nur but I'll take your word for it.

I disagree the engine sucks and it's been used what twice? Yeah a real geriatric. All a new engine will bring is a hell of a lot longer development cycle which could be much better spent in developing the characters and writing a good story, polish, testing, etc; a whole new batch of stupid bugs it will take 3 patches to resolve; a mess of complications involved every time a new engine is made. Game polish is very important, make the environments look realistic; don't just have a bucnh of empty rooms with enemies in them or a couple of chairs or a plant or two in the middle of a corridor. But making the rust in a steel bar look more rusty or see imperfections in the wood of a crate, for all the pretty unseeable graphics that hog resources like a NASA supercomputer it didn't help Doom 3 in being any of a better game than mediocre. I'm just thankful KotOR doesn't have that RTS perspective like Diablo and Baldur's Gate. I don't mind they make a new engine for K3, but I don't actually want one either. I'd rather they work of the story and characters than graphics and the ability for the robe to sway smoother in the wind. My two cents

I'd like to see an ending to KotOR first and foremost as skeptical about what that ending might be. But I hate how KotOR stands unresolved right now. As for KotNR, there are many problems with this game: 1) Firstly change the title if you want PCs to have the option of not being Jedi the entire game. If the game is called "Knights" then the game should focus on the Jedi like KotOR, if the game doesn't focus on the Jedi (Even if they appear and you have the option to become one) it shouldn't be called Knights as they are not the focus of the game but just one aspect of it. 2) If the game has the non-Jedi PC option then villains will be a major problem. Some people (including myself) like facing the Sith or the "Dark Jedi". If you have a Jedi PC then its all fine and good but a soldier/smuggler/scoundrel type PC that stays like that no way can defeat an army of Force using lightsaber weilding opponents. So who will be the enemy? Two different games? One for the Force using PCs and one for the ones that aren't? Because it won't buy a soldier lopping greanades at a Sith Lord and beating him. 3) The time period is definately a problem. Me I don't care, but there are many EU fans quite passionate about their continuity and a game set during the lifetime of Luke Skywalker will very much change events like KotOR did with the Old Republic. So it would probably have to be quite detached from Luke's timeline in order to have the freedom to do anything worthwhile. As much as I'd like to romance Jaina Solo, have Luke as my Jedi mentor, be piloted by Dash Rendar and reactivate 4,000 year old HK-47 to kill white armor clad meatbags I doubt it would work unless they mess intentionally with EU continuity, again fine by me but some wouldn't agree. 4) Yuuzhan Vong *shudders*

Heir to the Empire is about what I like in the EU, not really a series but Shadows of the Empire I liked a lot. Everything else I don't like pretty much or dislike a lot.

I think we'd all agree Lord Satasn that the only way K3 will make all gamer happy is if there were 3 interconnected campaigns, one where you play Revan, one the Exile and one a noobie. That way the gamer plays as who he/she wants and even still has the opportunity for many a replay as you only see one side of the three sided story in each campaign, moreso with gender and alignment variations for each set at the beginning. Course that's just a fabrication never will happen. Too bad, I think that'd make K3 live up to the potential it should have.

In a perfect world, Bioware and Obsidian would join forces and develop the game together. Create a fitting and worthy ending to the current era and story of K1 and K2, put in all of the wonderful things everyone has been asking to see in a KotOR game and they'd make 3 different interconnected campaigns one where you play as Revan, one as the Exile and one as an yet to be identified noob so that everyone could be happy and play with who they want to play. Of course we live nowhere near this world so I really don't know. K2 was left in nowhere so only Obsidian knows where they wanted to take the game and I would be very skeptical for a new company to come in to fill in where they left off. So I have that inclination towards Obsidian, Bioware is tried and true so I'd have no complaints from them doing it either, oh but to dream of a collaboration between the two that'd be nice. Too bad, the way things are I'd settle for just an expansion pack like Throne of Bhaal to wrap up K2 and not have to depend on a K3 that might not ever come. Time will tell I guess.

Revan got his memory back of course, the point is that you still don't know what those memories are. You can still make plenty of ingame decisions as to what are those memories and what that background is. And Vrook, aside from him a Jedi Master and an idiot do you know anything else about him at all? The fact is you don't know who the real Revani s because they never told you. You only know what Revan did in the Mandalorian Wars and in the events after. You have no idea at all at who Revan is as a person, where Revan came from, and even more interesting for me how all of these events have changed and affected him/her. Role Playing is defining and shaping the life and actions of a character within the parameters and universe set within the game. A background or memories hardly diminish role playing, if anything they enhance it for all of the new opportunities they open for subplots, sidequests, relationships. As these new aspects of a known character are ocurring and you are learning about them and choosing the next course of action, that is what role playing is. I've played pen and paper RPGs and let me tell you as detailed and complete as a character is then the better that character is developed and more opportunities arise for that character to grow and change during the course of the experience. For me the Exile was just that, an exile with no past, no real future, in the end just a hollow shell. You seriously underestimate all of the opportunities that could rise from a more detailed character than a vague fill in the blanks one like the Exile. But if you feel that knowing nothing about the character and doing nothing except the immediate actions or making the decisions based solely related to the immediate events occuring it makes the character more your own then great. Frankly I feel Revan was almost as much as an empty character as Exile. An when I think which of the two characters I'd like to revisit if given the opportunity I see a far more compelling story from Revan than Exile. Exile very much has his/her own personality or weren't you paying attention as you played K2, you set what that personality is ingame. Both characters have as much potential for development as a new third, even more I'd say. And again, you basically know that Revan has back his/her memory but you have no idea what that memory is. There is plenty if not too much you could still choose to shape Revan as a character. The same with the Exile, beyond being a general and Malachor V you know nothing about him/her. But there is hardly any lesser role playing experience playing with Revan than Exile, if anything there a much more interesting story to be told from that perspective at least for me. Doesn't matter though, you know K3 will stick you with some stupid noob that now magically has to finish both journeys of Revan and Exile for them, and they will be reduced to a lousy cameo if a lot or some dialogue choices if less.

Boy this is a tough one. Generally speaking most of the characters there are just annoying, not necessarily bad characters. However, I think I'd have to go with either Boba Fett or Wicket. Boba Fett is the most overrated character in SW, 3 lines in 3 movies plus swallowed by a giant Sandworm, I couldn't think a character could be found more pathetic if I tried (Sorry Fett lovers, just my opinion, I liked Jango though at least he did something). As for Wicket well I have a huge hatred of all Ewoks as cute as they were, they ruined my final SW movie. Jar Jar, well too over the top. But take him out of Ep1 I wouldn't have found it as bad. Out of the game characters only G0-T0 is a character worthy of pure hatred unless of course you also count Rosh in JA or that Twi'lek in the original JK *shudders*.

I disagree with you Baley. Revan is only defined as much as his actions during the Mandalorian and Sith War (Or Jedi Civil War for those that prefer the K2 term) but Revan is hardly defined as a complete character. You know next to nothing about who Revan was before he entered the Jedi, what planet does he/she come from, what family does Revan have, how did the events of K1 and K2 affect and shape how Revan is now. I think there are huge Role Playing Possibilities as far as Revan is concerned. Some people (Myself included) believe that the questions Bastila asks you in Dantooine about your past are the actual background of Revan some think it was just part of the fake personality the Council put on him/her. Either way there is still plenty to learn of Revan's story, even more now as K2 made Revan even more important, revealing his past with Kreia and Malachor V. Plus there is still a lot more to resolve as Revan; the true Sith, the Bastila/Carth relationship, the state of the Jedi following K2, if anything that's the protaonist that has the most to offer in story terms. Exile meanwhile is pretty much left in the same place he/she started in, so while his/her issues of where he/she is going are unresolved in the grand scheme I find Exile much less important than Revan. K2 was pretty much a search for Revan, following the footsteps of what he/she did, understanding why those choices were made, basically K2 just made Revan even more central and important than the Exile. All we got of the Exile is he/she was an outcast former general, who happened to be strung along by just about everybody in the entire K2 game. Don't get me wrong I like the Exile, but given the chance I'd much rather contniue exploring Revan now that I took a break from him/her as Chris Avellone implied in an interview way in the beginning of K2's development. Exile is just as much a predifined personality as Revan is and to be honest so will be a brand new idiot in K3 where they'll probably go. All characters are predefined, the game just lets you know what those stories are during the course of play and at the very most allows you to choose 1 or 2 variables in the details never in the overall. Does that really make you think your character is your character? Do you think that I would have chosen to be an exiled Jedi and followed the course the game set if I had the actual ability to define the character the way I wanted? These are never your characters, they are the writer's characters and you get to customize them a little bit to your taste. This is why I laugh when people complain about a set voice, name or background. No the character isn't mine anymore, well never actually was. Some people might prefer to make up their own backgrounds and stories in their minds to keep some notion the character is their own but not me. I'd much rather have a fully fleshed and detailed character with the choices to changes some aspects to my liking, instead of just imagining some background that will never even show up ingame. It kinda takes away from my character when he/she is just a simple role to play in the current situation and has absolutely no ties to a past or anything remotely resembling a life. My two cents.

I missed something. When Obsidian confirmed that LA denied them returning the cut content? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Here's John Morgan's response about the content patch from April 6. Rejected and subject was closed. On topic I'm really looking forward to this restoration project.

I like them about the same. I think both trilogies have their own things worth while and things that I didn't like at all. The prequels are very cgi dependant, many say at the expense of the substance of the story. I think that the two are not really related as you can have a movie with great substance and cgis in the same package see LotR. Is the OT that much better written than the PT, maybe ESB is, the other two not that much better. ANH was just great fun, stormtroopers and X-Wings. ESB has the rich substance the entire OT is usually attributed to. And RotJ is just a mess with a few good scenes. TPM is like RotJ a lot of mess with some good scenes. AotC was not as good as ANH but I certainly liked it much better than RotJ. RotS has potential to be close to ESB. The OT isn't nearly as well constructed as many give credit to, there are a lot of discrepancies between characters and storylines that were changed midway through the actual movies which make no sense at all onscreen. Frankly I have no idea what exactly were people expecting from the prequels but I think maybe their sentimental glorification of the OT made them have hugely unreasonable expectations and standards to reach. So even with their faults I like all of the SW movies a lot equally, even TPM with its lousy Gungans and RotJ with its absurd and just as lousy Ewoks.

I think K2 was better written but I don't think it had a better story. I agree with you that K1's story was very one dimensional though K2 was not that much farther ahead of it, at least I didn't find it to be as much as some might say. For me K2 has going for it characters like Kreia and Atton who I really liked a lot. T3 was superbly integrated this time so that too. Hk, Mira and Mandalore were alright as was Bao-Dur. Visas and Handmaiden were also ok but they never really grew on me much. Hated Disciple, Hanharr and GO-TO. I also liked worlds like Onderon and Nar Shadaa but in the end not as much as I'd hoped I'd like them. I half liked influence and did like how your actions affected planets. Like I said I think K2 was better written than K1 but I liked K1's overall story more even if it was one dimensional. I liked the setting of the Jedi vs Sith war more than the Jedi are all dead yet not and Sith are all hunting you yet don't appear for 75% of the game scenario. I like Revan more than Exile, I find Revan's story much more interesting as redemption and attonement or self discovery of your own true evil self than I find Exile's you were banished for disobeying, help us we need you, ok thanks now be gone again of K2. I was really liking K2 at least close to K1 until the return to the academy on Dantooine and the copout of Kreia with the Masters so you chase her happened. Telos, Nihilus, Malachor V, Trayus Academy, Sion, Traya all were very disappointing both in storyline result and gameplay difficulty. The ending or lack thereof ruined it further for me so while I liked 70% of the game the last 30% really sunk it. K2's darker tone was cool as I like dark, but the overall story you're the last known Jedi yet aren't and just jet from one planet to another fighting pirates, mercs, pickpockets and guild thieves just didn't attract me as much as K1 did in the end, I just liked the war scenario better. And while I liked Kreia a lot, I liked Jolee as my mentor-ish character much more, particularly with Kreia's motives and end result. Nihilus was a supremely more interesting concept and much more impressive looking character than Malak yet Nihilus was a mere cameo and so easy to beat I almost reloaded to see what had happened since I blinked, had Malak's character become Nihilus once he became Lord of the Sith; looked like him, spoken like him, destroyed worlds like Nihilus supposedly had, then I'd have no complaints at all from Malak. Still in the end Malak had a much more prominent role than Nihilus and Sion put together. Who should make K3? I don't know, the way it was left off I'd say Obsidian should do it since they know where they want to take it and I'd hate for a new company to try to put their own story over where Obsidians, I have little faith in replacement storytellers. But considering how the storyline progressed after return to Dantooine, I'm concerned where the story would go in K3. As it stands K2 is my Dune Messiah to K1 that is my Dune. I half like how dramatic and tragic it is but it has also messed so much with the characters I grew to like that I also half don't like it and it plain depresses me to play it especially nearing the end. If K3 is anything like Children of Dune (In keeping with the same metaphor) then like those books, I'll really just love the original while somewhat like the other two for some things but dislike it just as much for others. But then it is always extremely difficult to match the original. My two cents.

Just wanted to say thanks for the tremendous effort you guys are undertaking in doing this and I really hope you guys finish it. While I'll still like K1 better, this will help me like K2 a lot more than I do now. Too bad the male ls ending still kinda sucks though, oh well.

I liked Jedi Academy the most strangely enough. It had loads of problems; hit detection was terrible, the structure of mission selection was poorly designed and I was really hoping to be able to walk along the Academy and talk to people in between missions like Elite Force, the storyline I liked overall but its execution was lacking greatly, oh then there was Rosh *shudders*. Still I liked the great variety of worlds visited, liked the general idea of resurrecting Marka Ragnos (Kinda Lord of the Ringish), loved Katarn as my mentor as I was tired of playing him, different missions instead of just run/shoot like the mission with the sand burrowers, swoops, etc. For the most part the game looked pretty good also. In spite of a somewhat-crap ending and final fight (I really wished Ragnos would have risen from the grave instead of possesing Tavion agh) I enjoyed the SP quite a bit and still do every once in a while. I don't care at all about MP so many of JA's problems didn't affect me. Dark Forces I liked back when I played it in Playstation 1, but never enough to finish it as the aspect of SW I find interesting and unique is the Jedi/Force. I like many other sci-fi universes over SW's core techs and aliens. JK:DF2 was great at the time. Now I pretty much hate the game though, from the lousy acting and horrible characters that were Yun, Jerec, the Twi'lek especially, etc. To the concept that the Force was stored in a damn valley and anyone could just pick it up by standing in a light coming from the ceiling and instantly become a force wielding threat to the galaxy. Just my opinion, no offense to those that still like the game. MotS was cool also at the time, there were some things I liked about the game a lot and I definately liked Mara Jade. But my enjoyment of the game came more from the unofficial levels like fighting Vader at Bespin as Luke than the actual game itself. Still not a bad overall game at all, liked the confrontation with Kyle at the end a lot too. JO:JK2 was better than JK for me. By this point I was tired of playing as Katarn so one of the first things I did was find an Anakin Ep2 skin to replace him in SP. But the game had some great momenets, a little too many Imperial bases outposts and ships for me to really like the worlds but not bad. Hated Barney though, replaced his butt quickly also with smeone else. Just my two cents.

Frankly I don't give much of a damn as far as graphics is concerned, if the time was spent fleshing out the story and characters more to make K3 a complete and fully polished game they can use the same engine the third time for all I care. I'm in these games for the storyline and characters, game engines are very far on my list of priorities. But it was already mentioned by many that if K3 were done it would have a new engine and a whole new set of bugs too as a great companion for its maiden voyage yay! But no, if it is made K3 will probably be just another K2 in terms of story. Some noob finishing out the quests embarked upon by both Revan and Exile who will be degenerated to a crappy cameo or some really stupid dialogue of what happened to them if they are mentioned at all. Will there be a K3, maybe and I might go as far as probably. After all the point of KotOR has been for it to sell and both games certainly did that. Though K2 has suffered negative backlash in terms of the bugs, cut content, and all the droves of speculation and flames where the series should go next and who should be its star. Bottom line is that K3 would more than likely sell, maybe not as much as K1 or K2 if the quality of 3 goes further south but it will probably sell. Much like the JK series KotOR would sell at least a few more games in decline until the series is eventually scrapped. This is of course should K3 not be improved upon K2 and even K1 both in stability for gameplay and its actual story/character content. Whether Bioware returned for K3 or Obsidian had a shot at it I believe both would give a good effort. Bioware invented this so they could theoretically take the story where originally envisioned (Though K1 was supposed to be more of a self contained game with no sequel) and Obsidian does great storytelling and has learned a great deal I believe from K2's experience. I'd be curious to see what either one would do with K3. But for the moment I'm not really optimistic on K3 at all, neither in it being made or that if it were it would be worth it. Hope I'm wrong though on both accounts.

I've become less and less a fan of RTS over the years; micromanagement really bores me a lot now, RTS SP storylines are less enjoyable for me to watch as usually they are from that above ingame perspective, and basically it's all collect resources, defend base, build army, attack, rinse and repeat. I did really like Battle for Middle Earth as it banished micromanagement almost completely, but even proven classic RTS like Command and Conquer and Age of Mythology can't hold my attention anymore and SW RTS games have ended up leaving wanting; Galactic Battlegrounds was meh and the one before that was horrible. So I really don't know if I'll be interested in Empire at War. Screenies look nice and all but I've been fooled by that too many times before to know that while it may look fun and interesting it ends up being not. I haven't bought any LA game since K2 and don't know if any will be of interest to me now with the result of that. Won't buy the Ep3 game which is slightly of interest to me since they went with the console only bologny, not much interested in Republic Commando. Even K3 if it were made, in the current state of K2 and how it left me feeling, would be a game I'd have to really consider buying now. So Empire at War has several notches against it right now for me.

For me; simply yes, yes it did.

Oh man this again? Gotta be honest here, I don't really care who shot first. Had Greedo shot first in the 77 version and missed would that really have made much difference? I've seen the OT about a 100 times the original way it was realesed, I still have them taped on VHS probably older than some people on these boards. I consider myself a true SW fan, and frankly I don't mind anything that people have complained about in the revisions of the OT...well ok that dancing thing in Jabba's palace in RotJ makes me cringe like watching the Exorcist for the first time; but then again RotJ makes me cringe that way pretty much anyway in any shape way or form, there is very little I like of that movie and that's the freaking ending to the story, like K2's ending a real letdown there. In the original cut of ANH right beofre Han shoots, Greedo says "I've been looking forward to this for a long time" meaning he was about to shoot Han, so Han hardly murdered him in cold blood as many depict. Han just won the quickdraw as Greedo did the stereotipycal villain monologue which delayed him enough to be fried. Do I think the change was necessary? No absolutely not, there was no point to change that scene at all. Am I traumatized by it or does it change the way the movies play out for me, no it doesn't do that either. At least the DVD version almost puts both Han and Greedo firing simultaneously, almost. The only reason I don't like the revision is because it's clearly a cgi mess that looks fake in the final product, had the scene been filmed like that with Ford moving to the side as Greedo fired, I wouldn't have thought any less of the scene. Besides short of ANH, many things in the OT never panned out the way they were described in the orignal versions: Han was never a true badass in any of the following two movies, stormtroopers who were represented as crackshots and elite soldiers in ANH (Remember the intro in the Tantive 4, those guys were on fire) were defeated by Care Bears with rocks, Boba Fett did nothing except pose in the background and get swallowed (Jango at least had a little role in Ep2), Vader couldn't hold up contniuity between the movies of the OT themselves (Vader in ANH is very different from Vader in ESB), many subplots were changed midway through the movies very sloppy (Luke's revenge subplot against Vader murdering his father altered to Vader actually being his father which I didn't mind since it was done very well, the love triangle between Luke, Leia and Han was altered into Luke and Leia being twins which was just disturbing considering their kiss and also pretty much a lame repeat of the discovery that Vader was Luke's father), the Death Star ray which desintegrates planets was actually being used to target and destroy ships(Come on, that ray would have taken out half of both fleets in a single shot) and the villains couldn't come up with a better plan than trying to rebuild the same dud of a space station which was taken out by snubfighters a few years before. So besically Greedo shooting first doesn't affect the way I see Han, the way I see the movies or the way I feel about SW. And I feel the same way about the prequels; they could have been much better sure but I don't think they were as horrible as some people say but that's just a matter of personal taste. If there's anything I think should be changed, well how about almost everything in RotJ: get rid of Death Star part deux (Don't repeat the same thing give me something original), get rid of Ewoks (Go back to the Wookie slave revolt originally written), go back to the original duel between Vader and Luke in the Emperor's palace in Coruscant, have the darn Rebel fleet and Imperial fleet actually fight each other instead of just letting the fighters do all the work (In that fight only once do you see cap ships firing on one another for a split second), oh yeah did I mention get rid of the Ewoks! :cool: Who shot first?Han, Greedo, HK-47 hidden in a booth...whoever. This is all just my opinion of course and I know I'm in the minority.

Well I don't think Luke necessarily beat Vader, I think frankly that Vader let him win. Since the end of ESB Vader is kinda unsure of what he's doing anymore and by the time he confronts Luke in RotJ Vader doesn't even put much heart into the battle. The conflict within him as Luke kept sensing just kept getting bigger until he let his guard down and Luke got his sudden urge of rage. But had Vader been as focused as he was in ESB, he would have beat Luke yet again. That's the way I see it anyway. Obi-Wan, well who knows, maybe Anakin still wasn't as powerful or in the least as disciplined to be able to beat him or maybe old Ben just gets a lucky shot like with Maul.

The devs could certainly use that as a reason to bring Vandar into K3 if they wanted to. It'd be cool to see Vandar again though if it were possible or some other from his race, heck why not more than one? I'd originally hoped Vandar was one of the Jedi Masters you were looking for, especially after seeing him in the holovid arguing with Vrook, oh well...

Well when talking to Vrook: