Muad'Dib

From what I can remember in K2 they call it the Jedi Civil War because they said that the Republic and the citizens couldn't tell the difference between the Jedi and Sith anymore since the Sith were once Jedi themselves. In K1 it was simply another Sith War. In fact if you kinda look at it Exar Kun and his apprentice Ulic Qel-Droma were Jedi also so wouldn't that war be a Jedi Civil War also? Even though K2 called it a Jedi Civil War, as I see it, it was an extension of the Sith War so it's another Sith War. I guess it's all a matter of perspective.

That's Nomi. Jolee says that the PC character reminds him of Nomi Sunrider who he knew a long time ago.

I don't think anyone hates Nihilus, I've never seen any complaints about the character itself. What everyone hates (Me included) is that Nihilus was pumped up to be the greatest, most important and powerful Sith Lord in the game then he appears in just 2 very short scenes in the entire game before you face him and once you actually do face him he was easier to kill than a Gizka in K1. I literally hit Nihilus with my saber twice, one hit dropped him 50% and cued the Visas sacrifice dialogue, second hit completely killed him. I was like WHAT that's it???? A guy that devours entire worlds and legions of Jedi and two swings of the saber and he fell. I had more difficulty fighting dead-eye in the Taris dueling circuit in K1. I think that is what everybody is disappointed in. Personally I think Nihilus is a brilliant concept for a character, he was just a complete pansy especially after all the hype he got both ingame and out of it. But then none of the Sith Lords really where a challenge really anyway, Nihilus just happened to be the easiest of them all.

Saint I fully get what you're saying but I think you might have misinterpreted what I meant. If we are looking at the KotOR games as a potential trilogy, then we have to examine each movie trilogy in of itself, not the entire anthology of the six films. The comments I've made about the movies not changing perspective I understand remian pretty accurate. While Anakin is the central figure of the entire SW storyline, you didn't even know this up until Episode 1 rolled out. As far as everyone knew from the OT, SW was Luke's story. I agree with you completely that the movies share perspectives between the main characters whether Luke, Han and Leia in the OT or Anakin, Obi-Wan and Padme in the PT. That's not what I meant, what I mean is while each can have their own perspective or moments of fucos in the films, the films never select one focus over another. In other words, the movies never have 1 movie entirely from Anakin's perspective then another entirely from Obi-Wan's, etc. They always jump from one to the other within the same movie and the group is oftentimes more together than apart. This is different from the games, because K1 was entirely about Revan while K2 was entirely from the perspective of the Exile, they have an entire videogame to themselves. If you put a new PC come in then you'd have a completely unrelated third perspective not shared in the first two games. As it stands the pov of the two main characters isn't shared, it's focused on that specific character, in fact the two protagonists haven't even shared the same screen even once. I finished K2 last night and every conversation and development in the game just reinforced to me even more that Revan is the most important character in the series. Since this is Revan's quest and fight, and since K2 made the Exile a significant piece of this quest, I'd rather see the story be finalized from their points of view. Not because I'm thinking of level caps or gameplay issues or how easy the game will be (Let's face it, the games are already extremely easy even in difficult setting), I mean strictly from the storyline perspective. Don't show me part of the story with one character, say he's the most important one and then shuffle him to the back to a cameo or one simple moment of conversation that lets me know how his story ends. Applying to the games the comparison to the movies you've just made, the way I see K3 working is by having both the Exile and Revan as protagonists at the same time, except that the game switches from their points of view from time to time. I'd rather have one LS/DS campaign from Revan's pov, one from the Exile, and if you really still want a new PC then intoduce a third character with his own campaign. Another way to do it is to begin K3 with a new PC, then some point in the game you meet up with Revan or Exile. You then have the ability to change PCs if you want; if you choose to continue the game as Revan or Exile then the new PC sacrifices himself/herself to save Revan/Exile and then your selected abilities, classes etc is pased onto the Revan/Exile character and you continue from there, if you choose to continue playing as the new PC then you see the rest of the story through into the end. In any case, I'm certain the devs will simply introduce a new character anyway as much as any of us may or may not like it, it's a lot more simple to just start over with a new guy than having to continue an original character's story and elaborate a reason why this old PC is no longer as strong as he was before or whatever. What's funny is since Exile "lost" his/her connection to the Force while wandering the Unknown Regions, they could have just used Revan as the protagonist of K2 from the beginning as that's what Revan was doing anyway and he might have lost his/her connection to the Force in exactly the same way. And seeing the confrontation between Revan and Kreia, that would have been interesting. We just have to wait for K3 to see where they take the series, hopefully it will not be another open-ended disappointment that will then have to rely on K4 in order to end.

Nope Matt7895, Vima was not mentioned in K1 or K2 as far as I've seen. The corpse you find inside the cave in K1 is of Duron Qel-Droma or somthing like that, he was the nephew or cousin of Ulic and Cay Qel-Droma.

I don't know much about Vima Sunrider other than she was Nomi's daughter??? Anyway KotOR 2 takes place about 40 years after Exar Kun's war and in this game you find Nomi's robes...somewhere so I heard. But there are Jedi out there, according to the story, searching for the Exile (As the Masters indicate) or scattered in hiding. I suppose Vima is one of them. Plus the games don't exactly follow the EU to the letter as you've probably have seen, so for all we know there might not even be a Vima.

Lifthransir Bane, I commented on his age because of the position he's had every time he's posted. I'm right, you're wrong, my way is the only way. I tried to have a conversation with him trying to explain why I'd like it the way I would, how I believe it could be implemented into functioning and hear a similar approach from his side. The same as I've had conversations with Saint in the storyline threads or even Hades some times past. Instead he resorted to namecalling and disregarding any other person's opinion different from that of himself as invalid, wrong or stupid. To me that is a very immature attitude, when I saw he was 20 I remarked about it because of the nature of many people's attitudes during those time periods. When I was 20 I thought I knew everything too and my opinion was the only one that had to be heard and no one that thought different than me had a valid point. As I've grown up a bit that perspective has changed and while I still discuss any difference of opinon I may have over a subject I still respect those opinions different than my own as well as those who say them. He on the other hand demonstrated he doesn't and I recognize that as being because of his age. It wasn't implied as a criticism or insult merely an observation that makes sense to me why he has that posture with others, he's just still young. Much in the same fashion as I not exactly on the level of experience and maturity as someone who is 35, neither is he with someone who is a little older. That's not a bad thing at all, and again I didn't mean it as an insult, but look at his responses. So I attempted to difuse the conversation as I see no point in trying to discuss this with him any further, he has to be right and that's the way it is. So fine, that doesn't affect me anymore than my opinion affects him I'm sure. So that's why I said what I said, take it as you will Lifthransir.

Whatever 213374U, I have neither the desire or motivation to continue speaking to someone like you. Just drop it.

It's unknown when the first patch will come out. But the first patch is already in the works so hopefully it won't be too long.

I agree completely with you Saint. It's great to be able to post opposing point of views like this and discuss it out without retorting to namecalling and petty insults (Unlike with some people in the general thread). I suppose one of the main reasons why I want the story to be continued from these perspectives is because of the empty feeling of non-accomplishment I get at the end of K2. This isn't something strict to K2, I get that in all open ended games. I feel there's something left to do, like the game was left unfinished for me, in the same fashion as if I'd seen two of the SW OT but never saw the third. Since I'm not bothered at all by the gameplay aspect of retorting my character back to level 1 or 5, 6 whatever, I just don't look into gameplay as a concern for me that is. I can understand very well how people would like to see new things and new characters, but for me I found the characters of the previous two games (Or most of them) so well written and so interesting I really want to see how these characters evolve as exactly that as characters in the same fashion I would in a sequel to a book or movie. Unlike other game types such as shooters or strategy or whatever, what has always interested me most about RPGs is the story and the characters. Since I feel the story of the previous two games and their respective protagonists is not finished, I want to see it finished, a sort of conclusion to the journey and experiences I've had during the course of the past two games. I'm not unaware of the problems due to the d20 system, the level progression of Revan to 20 and Exile to...whatever the heck Exile can reach. I just am willing to sacrifice the view I have of ither as a Master or uber-being in order for the opportunity to continue to explore them as people and thier companions and wherever their journey takes them. I guess it's all about what you prefer in your game. Some people value more the gameplay and style of RPG while others value more the storyline and characters within, I guess that's why some people tend not to want to let go their former characters, they were more interested in that character and the story surrounding it than the gameplay mechanics involved inan RPG system. Naturally I wish there was a middle ground to be reached. Like having 3 campaigns one with Revan, one with Exile and one with a new guy. That way everyone would be happy. Or if you play a portion of the game with a new guy until reaching Revan/Exile and then have the choice to switch protagonists to one of the older ones if you so want. But that's just a dream and far too much to ask of any developer. Whatever choices are made for K3, I'm confident in the end I'll appreciate it. If Obsidian is to do K3 then I have absolute faith in them, as I do with Bioware should they decide to retake the reigns...a joint venture wouldn't be bad I think, as each game has it's own unique strengths. As far of the title Return of the Jedi, I've always felt the title signifies the return of the Jedi as a group or generalization to the galaxy, not that it refers to Luke specifically. Sure there were other focuses in the movies such as Han and Leia, although you have to admit those characters were still basically in the same group as Luke, they didn't get movies specifically for them by themselves. I apply that here as well. Oh well we'll see what they come up with for K3. I'm a little worried though about what these True Sith will turn out to be to be honest. I like the Sith the way they're presented in the movies, further detaching them from that leaves me skeptical.

That's really hilarious. You posted you're 20 in the age thread, well I'm 27 and that explains a lot really about how you express yourself; obviously there isn't a point in having a conversation with you or trying to state a different opinion. I tried to explain my pov and why I wanted to see it that way not to imply that I'm correct and doing it any different is wrong as you clearly do. There's about a hundred different more responses I could give you but it's not worth it as I'm sure you feel the same. Whenever K3 is made, if it is, these comments will be irrelevant. All I can say is that the game can work as much the way you want it as the way I want it.

darth vosa, as I responded to that. So you tell the game like in K2 and depending on that those npcs will show up or not. About those I'm only interested in Bastila and Jolee anyway (Carth can continue to0 appear in an important secondary role as admiral or rejoin). Fill out the rest of the spots with new npcs. Exile can't exactly take the same group either. Depending on how the games went it determines the possible npc party members that are available. That isn't hard to implement at all.

I understand your pov Saint and FreddaH believe me, I get the d20 levelling issues. I realize the difficulty of attempting to reuse the same protagonist, I realize that you kind of roll the eyes and shake our head if you hear that Revan suddenly was balsted back to level 1 becauso of this or that. I know and I sympathize. But I rather go through that and continue the voyage as was begun than have to start over yet again with some new person I don't care for, a character that has nothing with the previous two games. I don't want another intertwining new character, that's exactly what they did in K2. Because of the levelling progessive nature of RPGs I believe they should attempt one of two things: 1) Be self contained stories where the story ends promptly at the end of the game. 2) Not progress the character so much that renders that PC unuseable if the game is left open ended. FreddaH on your comment about story balance, at least for me as I've played K2 it has become increasingly clearer that Revan is the key figure of this timeline, I don't mind at all for this particular character to substitute Exile as protagonist should one be chosen over the other. And the other way around that as suggested is making a dual campaign, in other words have both protagonists have an adventure in K3, thus sealing the gap between the two games. Both campaigns are interconnected and meet together in resolution at the end. Before you start talking about how long it would take I know that already, I'm just saying that's how it could be done for it to work, not how long such a game would take to develop or any details of that nature. Like I said, some people wish for a new character and see K3 finalize the previous games' stories, some people want a new character and brand new story unrelated to either one of the previous games and some people want to see one or both of the original protagonists return. I know the third game can work perfectly with a new PC, all I'm saying is that's what I don't want to see personally. I don't base what I want looking at gameplay (To me gameplay is of secondary importance over the story), I base it on my interest specifically in the story, what K1 delivered, what K2 delivered and what both of those have left as a possible lead up for K3. In the same way I would not want to see a new character take up for Luke in ESB and then a third replace the second in RotJ, I would want to see the story finished from the perspective of Revan and Exile before moving on to a third character and a new story. I hope you guys can uderstand why I'm saying what I'm saying, as I get why you guys have the positions you do. Anyway when and if there's a K3 all of thiese discussions will be rather pointless wouldn't you say?

Just because you don't agree doesn't make me any less sensible than you 213374U so don't go there, just the same my opinion is no less valid than yours or vice versa. I mentioned BG 2 as an exmaple of the general concept of what could be used not exactly the same thing. It was just a way to present how it can be possible to use the same protagonist again, not a suggestion to copy the same exact method. A new story is always possible but considering K2's ending perhaps you'd realize that this story is quite not finished yet. Since there won't be an expansion to cover this fact many people are assuming this will be resolved in K3. Assuming that someone that has not played K1 or K2 and then chooses to begin straight into K3 I would find uncommon, with noticeable exceptions here and there but again uncommon. So I doubt making sense of the story attached to the previous too will be a real issue. No matter what the devs choose a lot of people will be pissed because that's not the way it was. That's where the variations come in don't they like in K2? You realize Revan was this or that, etc, etc, not the best system but even with some new character won't the same have to be figured out anyway? So we can agree to just disagree and leave it at that I suppose. roflolocopter I agree that I hope ithe next game brings more difficulty.

With all respect 213374U, having Revan and/or Exile come back as the protagonist won't be any lamer than just putting a new character in their place. Both ways have equal lameness, I however rather the lame beginning of starting lower than before with Revan/Exile and get to explore those characters, how they've changed, grown as well as their companions and new ones as well as getting to finish their storyline than having the lameness of a new character again, learning as a padawan again, searching for Revan and Exile again and doing Revan and Exile's job for them again. My interest is greater with the storyline issue than the gameplay one, since both alternatives are lame I rather have the brief lameness of one of my old protagonists losing their powers (Like Baldur's Gate 2) but be able to continue to explore that character and his/her story than have the much bigger lameness of a new character who had nothing to do with 1 and 2 come in step into Revan/Exile's shoes, finish their journey for them and further detach the games from each other in both characters and story just so I don't require an explanation why my character is at level 1. And as for Revan and Exile in the Unknown Region, why do you think because they left there the game's would have to take place there? K3 can pick up just when Revan/Exile get back from the Unknown Regions as the enemy moves against the Republic. If Baldur's Gate 2 could do it...and do it very well if I may add...there's no reason why K3 can't do it as well.

Well all in all I'd much rather see the Revan/Exile stories concluded from a first hand approach instead of a lousy third party perspective. And having just some new guy is pretty much as unoriginal as just bringing back Revan or Exile, there's nothing innovative about it at all. I mean Revan was just a new guy, same as the Exile, a third new guy would hardly impress me. I'm pretty certain they'll have a new guy in K3, and frankly it sucks. K3 wouldn't have to be 5 years or even 1 year after TSL it can be any time. As far as Revan and Exile in the Unknown Regions amm, you do realize they can come back right? I sincerely doubt the True Sith are going to be a threat just hanging around the unknown regions of space, if anything they'd be attacking the worlds of the Outer Rim and Core thus prompting Revan and Exile to return. Not really interested in playing a Han Solo-like character, Atton fills that role pretty good. As much as I'm certain I won't be able to play as my old protagonists again it is as much as I'm certain it is precisely them who I'd need to play again in order for the K3 story to work properlly. I know you want a new guy Saint, and I know you'll get him, but I completely disagree with your posture, sorry. I'd much rather explore how my old characters are growing, how they are changing, how that affects those that travelled with them and what their ultimate destiny is in the future and actually playing it out. Than just having some new yahoo come in and have to be explained everything from the beginning yet again, begin Jedi training yet again, going off to search for guy 1 and 2 yet again, and doing their job for them yet again. It is Revan's story that drew me into the game in the first place, Exile's story was well enough done but K2 convinces me more than anything that Revan is the key figure in the overall arc, since K2 used Exile I believe he/she deserves to have closure but more than him/her Revan is the one that needs to close this story, Revan is the Luke of the OT or the Anakin of the PT. My two cents.

Oh Thanks for the heads up jag!!! My HK is still sparking in the cargo hold so I haven't talked to him at all yet, since I got the final part I need to fix him I'm definately keeping an eye out for this conversation.

HK mocking Carth and Bastila! God why was this cut??? That has to be the most hilarious thing I've ever heard that tin can say in both games!!! LOL. God I wish they'd put that in again.

Well Knight I wouldn't mind seeing Korriban again, how about just not going to the Valley of the Sith Lords and going someplace else, like a Sith city-fortress or palace or soething the like. And I'd love to see Coruscant, though the brief glimpse of it in K2 just looked like a retextured Taris. Plus unless the Jedi Temple isn't the same as the movies, they got it a bit wrong as the Jedi Temple isn't surrounded by skyscrappers, the Jedi Temple is the only high structure in that spevific area.

Saint, there's a bunch of dialogue files inside the installation that weren't used in the game, scenes that for one reason or another were left out but at the very least were made so far as to have the actors record these scenes. There's lengthier endings; female PC meeting Atton, male PC saying goodbye to Handmaiden or Visas before he leaves, Atton tortured and murdered by Sion, Visas and Handmaiden fighting, Atton and Disciple fighting and a whole slew of others. There's a thread in the spoilers forum that has a litsting of what each says and even some of the clips reconstructed. Like Atton's death and his alternate departure with female PC when game ends.

Lucas said in a very old interview that Darth Vader translates to "Dark Father" so Darth is translated to Dark basing myself on that.

Hardly, the game would obviously have new npcs, that much is a no-brainer. And like K2 who appears in the game can be fashioned on how the previous games went. Naturally you could just choose who you want in your party, the others left over whether new or old well you can take them in ohter games, adds a lot of replay value if you don't get to see every npc with you in one journey. In any case, as far Revan's old companions go, just give me Bastila and Jolee and I'm satisfied. Carth can stay as an important non-party npc Admiral like in K2 or he can rejoin the group, however the popular vote goes on that. Any others that interest me from K1 are already party members in K2 so just Bastila and Jolee is fine as far as the old crew. I don't think it would be difficult at all, it would just take a very, very long time to develop a game with so many variations.

Revan and the Exile. Two different adventures simultaneously connected and meeting at the end. The KotOR storyline then would truly be an epic saga. And with all the LS/DS, male/female variations and npc possibilities replays are extensive.

We can just agree to diasagree Tentamus. To begin with these games have nothing to do with the Republic itself, they have to do specifically with the Jedi. If anything that should be your position; the actual Republic, its condition, the people within it or the situation of it are a simple backdrop for the events happening in the story. At no time does the story focus on the political situations of the Republic, the struggles of its senators or motions that are trying to be passed, the only representation of the Republic is one or two characters who belong to it and K2 didn't really have many of those at all, only Disciple is an active member of the Republic. To see the story in your pov Tentamus would be to say the OT doesn't revolve around Luke, Han and Leia but instead revolves around the Rebellion. That at any time within any of the three movies those characters could have been replaced by completely new ones and maintained the same sense of storytelling continuity, because they are not the focus, only pieces of it. The same would be said of Anakin in the PT. Personally I didn't see the movies that way, as such neither do I see the games in that fashion. The Republic is just a setting, the people make the story, not any particular faction or government within it. The struggles of these games are specifically about these characters' choices, their lives and how these have affected them and the galaxy. You yourself just posted on these particular character's arcs; Revan and Redemption, Exile and Acceptance. That these are a lead up towards these characters finding their destiny, precisely. They are finding what their destiny is but have yet to fulfill this destiny, ie to end the story. These destinies are the focal point of the games, now we have to see them through, and thus get closure, everything with a beginning has an end. That's what I want to see in K3, a fraking end. As cheesy as K1's ending was I'd take it a thousand times over the non-ending of K2, why because there is nothing more to tell, it's done and finished. A new story with new characters can always be made, there's plenty of Old Republic era to go around, but leaving K2 as it did, Exile's story got no closure at all, in fact all K2 did was set up where he/she was going to next to finish the job. While you may believe that K3 can come along with some new PC now being sent off looking for both Revan and the Exile, I would find that cheesier than any ending in K1. Then what K3 ends with the True, True Sith coming as a threat and all three protagonists jetting off to face them and K4 is yet another damn Padawan looking for the first three and so on and so on until you have 10 games with the same drawn out storyline, no defined protagonists and so many plot holes it actually gives the Star Wars movies are run for their money. Laozi I know that a nw PC can learn their fates without us having to see it first hand, that's precisely what I don't want. I don't want to learn about it I want to live it, to experience the end of their journey as I was supposed to. What's the point of going through a character's journey if you aren't even going to finish that journey with them if they are so replaceable any new character can just come in and pick up where they left off in their adventure. This is why I wanted an ending to K2 so it wouldn't depend on K3 to have an ending, particularly if I wasn't going to be able to use that character ever again. In any case, we'll just establish our views and tastes as different and there's nothing wrong with that at all.

Hi Dirk, I see what you are referring to but I disagree with you, here's why: In the OT as you pointed out Luke was the main focus, his sotry began in Ep 4, continued in Ep5 and concluded in Ep6. His journey came full circle. The same with the Obi-Wan/Anakin focus of the PT. In KotOR Revan's story came full circle but in K2 they pulled him/her out yet again into the fray thus eliminaing the closure he/she had. Exile is worse: . Now in the Ot Luke didn't begin the journey then had some new character take over for him in Ep5, then another in Ep6, that's where what you say doesn't apply. It's not that a new PC can't coe in to fight the new threat, it is that the new character can't finish Revan's or the Exile's journeys for them, or at least a new PC shouldn't. With a tv series like Star Trek, you have substories focusing on different people every week, but everyone is part of the same crew and are always together, which is not the case of K1, K2 and potentially K3. It's as if Captain Kirk was commanding the Enterprise in one episode, then the next some other captain is commanding, then the next another, then another, see my point? You are absolutely right, some people such as myself focus too much on the story. That is precisely because that's what RPGs are about for me the story, gameplay is a secondary element as far as I'm concerned. There are people who as you say think differently and all they care about is making a new character from scratch but not me, I'm more interested in the story and storyline aspects of these types of games than I am on how many points I'm allocating into which skill, what class I'm playing, etc. Just because the charcater is predifined in terms of identity and backstory (Like Revan and Exile), it hardly means you can customize said character with whatever class, skills, feats, powers, you want. After all it is your character and you are playing it as you like, no one will define the stats for you. In essence it'll be exactly the same as if you played a new PC, the only difference is that the story will pick up where it left off from the perspective of one of the original characters as opposed to being some new guy that wasn't involved before. Anyway that's just my pov. Oh and Galactica lots of memories when I was a kid just flew back right now haha.