Jediphile

Well, Bastila dying is acutally unlikely... You can only kill her if you choose LS, in which case you would be more likely to redeem her than to just kill her. Besides, the devs presuming that is not a big stretch. I thought they were stretching it far more, when they concluded in K2 that the LS Revan had redeemed the spirit of Ajunta Pall - that was actually difficult in K1, since it required a pretty high Persuade skill! Even with Persuade 20+, I failed frequently...

I was actually disappointed that Obi-Wan didn't even try. Especially after telling Yoda that he couldn't kill Anakin and Vader's comment to Luke in "Jedi" about Obi-Wan once thinking as Luke did then. On the other hand, with Hayden Christensen's horrible acting, I can't really blame Obi-Wan - Hayden really looked as if he had no idea where he was a long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away... Good - K3 for you!

George doesn't need money. He created Star Wars. He owns it. Whatever he says goes. George is god in Star Wars. His word is law.

Well, this is a KotOR2 board, and most of us are still pretty uncertain about it. I liked K2 better in a lot of ways, particularly the deeper story, but the fact that it was unfinished cannot be ignored, nor can the problem that I'm not allowed to identify with my own character due to lack of information about him.

Definitely Empire. It was better than the original, and all the rest were crap storywise to varying degrees, which is what matters most to me, even if some of them did have other redeeming qualities (skillfully long climax that didn't drag on in Jedi and incredible lightsaber-fights in Menace and Sith).

No, you're not alone. I do just the same and for the same reason. HK-47 may have some cool comments, but other than that he is just as pathetic as every other ranged fighter. I always go with three jedi-types if at all possible. And if I can't, then I tend to choose a human(oid) ranged fighter over any of the droids. Have used T3 on a few occasions, though, due to the heal-option you get with him after repairing all his damage, which I always do.

Why do you think they call it "Master Speed"? :D

No, but we're not talking about continuity by canon - we're talking about what happens in the games, which is not the same. It may be that the only officially accepted canon is that Revan chose LS and so that Vandar lived to be killed later on Katarr, as per Vrook's comments in K2. However, this is not a presumed conclusion in the game itself. In K2 a DS Revan is a valid possibility, and you even get to set it yourself. It also has consequences for Carth (being alive or dead), Bastila (being LS or DS), the Star Forge (being destroyed or not), etc.

I just don't see why. If you want a Yoda-species jedi master in K3, then that's fine - I'd even like that myself. I don't mind in the slightest. I do mind seeing dead people, though. Star Wars is not the Sixth Sense. Vandar is dead. Even if he survived an explosing ship in K1, he's still said to be dead in K2. Leave the carcass alone... There is support for it in one of the comic books, though. More importantly, there is in the game itself, since why else can Visas make Nihilus weaker during the confrontation by sacrificing her own life?

Ah, but there is an important distinction here, which you don't seem to consider. We can argue about how extensive D&D 3e should be, depending on what we expect from our various games, but the same is not true of d20. WotC intended d20 to be a base that served as a foundation for whatever games you wanted to do. That's why there is d20 Star Wars, d20 Cthulhu, etc. Those games are not the same as d20 D&D (3e) - they will not attract the same players and will not have the same agenda. D20 is meant to be an extensive foundation to build on. You can read WotC's own intentions to make d20 the industry standard, if you doubt that. My problem is that for an industry-wide standard for RPGs, d20 is about the worst foundation I can think of, since it's horrible limited and inflexible to me. I find that I cannot write or play the sort of games I like with d20, and so I don't think it, or any of its offsprings, can be called "intuitive". That goes without saying to me - every campaign is different. I also don't see that as a bad thing. However, that should not be taken to mean that this makes the question of well-designed rules an non-issue. You have to look at why the GM decided to add houserules to his campaign. If he did so simply to perfect his own game-style, then things are okay, and he's on the right track with his game IMHO. But if he made houserules because he felt the core rules were flawed, then we have a design-flaw instead of a simple matter of personal taste and preference. Those two are not the same. No, not always. You say you prefer a "gamist" approach, but there is a question of how far that goes. As an example I will take random loot. In most CRPGs, loot is exceedingly random indeed. There is little or no reason why I should find "Bindo's Band" in Visquis's lair beneath the Jekk' Jekk Tarr in KotOR2, but it did happen once. Similarly, it there is no reason why I should expect a swarm of mosquitos (or whatever they were) to randomly drop a suit of heavy plate armor when I kill them in Diablo 2, but that has also happened for me. Is this logical? (hint: this is a rhetorical question... ) Of course not, but you might accept it in a "gamist" environment, so if I understand you correctly, you would have no problem with this. I, however, do, since I find that it doesn't suspend disbelief. In fact, I find it blantantly annoying to the point of obvious stupidity thrown right in face. It tells me what the designers/programmers think of me, if I accept this, and what they think is not something positive... And I know I would never allow it in my own campaign, nor would my players. In tabletop RPGs, most treasure is conquered from fallen enemies, not stored away somewhere. I mean, if that orc chieftain had a bastard sword +3 frost brand, then why didn't he use it during the fight? That's basic stupidity too. The same is true if you can see enemies using certain items during a fight, only to then have it magically disappear once you kill them. As an old GM of mine once said, "all good role-playing is based on the moral principle of grave-robbery" I find this annoying in KotOR2 as well. If those Sith soldiers used blasters against me and wore armor, then I should bloody find those items once they're defeated. I can accept that some of their gear might be broken or similar during the fight, but not all of it. And why did Sith soldiers run around with a green lightsaber crystal or whatever? Basic stupidity. In KotOR2 the random loot generator was a bit too random (=d20), whereas it was better in KotOR1. I might not have found all the lightsabers and robes the dark jedi I fought used during the fight, but I did find some of them.

Yeah, but "we have a stiff in the morgue that seems to have died twice..."

Yeah, but there's this other thing that annoys in K2, which concerns the Exile. He's supposed to my character - the one I'm to identify with - yet I don't get to know half of his background or what he's thinking. For example, what has his motive to return to the republic? I don't know and I'm never told. That makes it pretty hard to associate with the character right from the beginning. And then when I'm just getting into the character, I crash on Dxun and talk about the landing, but it isn't until my own character leaves, that I learned from Kreia (talking to Atton) that the Exile - me - was on Dxun during the Mandalorian Wars. Very annoying! Obsidian really botched the job on the main character identification for the player. That needs - no, *must* - be remedied for the next game. At least they had an excuse in K1, because Revan lost his memories...

I really need to stop reading this topic, since it's nothing but one long slash-fest of GL and the prequels by a bunch of Statler and Waldorf types behaving like crybabies... Honestly, if someone cannot find *anything* positive to say about the prequels, then it's clearly because they're biased and have already *decided* to hate them with a vengeance in any event. And people are so quick to praise the originals. My, how people forget. "Empire Strikes Back" was a great movie - by far the best of the films IMHO, but "Return of the Jedi" was a very mediocre rehash of all the plots that had already been used in the two previous films - another Death Star, another fight between Luke and Vader, another walk by R2 and 3PO across the Tatooine desert, another Rebel Attack on the empire's superweapon... The movies didn't get *that* bad - people just all older and now remember the original trilogy with a good dose of nostalgia. That's okay, but spare us the crap about how GL sold out and messed up - he really didn't change his storytelling that much from RotJ, which anyone can note if they go back and dare to look at that movie with *critical* eyes. The only thing that truly worked for RotJ was the impressive ability to have an evolving finale that lasted 40+ minutes, which is not an easy feat. On the other hand, I don't exactly hear people praising the prequels for its lightsaber battles, which were clearly far more intense and spectacular than in the original trilogy. As for the dialogue - it's bloody Star Wars! It's not a shakespearean play. If I want excellent and clever dialogue, then I read or watch Richard III or Hamlet again, not Star Wars. Besides, not all the dialogue was awful. I liked Padme's comment about the republic's fall: "So this is how liberty dies... with thunderous applause". That's not exactly bad. That people don't see this just tells me that they're biased against the prequels. They may not have been great art (and were never supposed to be), but they weren't that awful either. I hate JarJar too, but he's not exactly a major character, no matter how annoying he is. People who can only slash and moan about the prequels are just behaving like a bunch of spoiled kiddies who are whining because GL stole your favorite toy and broke it. Well, build a bridge and get over it!

Kreia as often as possible, agreed. The game is about getting experience, and she provides a handy bonus, even if she is an evil old hag - you can't be too choosy about where your xps come from... Next to her is whatever jedi character is most convenient, which meant I used Visas a lot early on. Disciple was useful as a jedi, though, because I could replenish force points with him, even if he can be annoying to listen to.

Yes, some people have pointed out that you can get this response even if you set Revan to DS, though I've never encountered it myself (or else I just wasn't paying attention). But naturally it's a mistake - if Revan was DS, then Vandar died at the Star Forge. If Revan was LS, Vandar died on Katarr instead.

Tough call, but I'd probably go for K1, since they actually got to finish the game... K2 had great story with excellent characters (especially Kreia), but the game was slashed to pieces by the cut content

Actually, Vader was a tough opponent even after that. He faced eight jedi who set a trap for him at the Conclave on Kessel and he killed the lot of them! Not exactly pathetic...

That's the idea I'm using for my story. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I still prefer a yound padawan who was youngling until shortly before the game begins.

Why would you close it down? It may not be KotOR3 we just talked about, but on the other hand, at least we didn't slash at each others ideas and preferences for once. I must confess that I find discussing K3 a bit peculiar at times - you can only listen to people's call for customizable lightsabers and hooded robes so many times before it becomes repetitive... And nobody seems to read or care about each other's plot suggestions, which means that they either get slashed for their length and content or else (and worse) just sit there uncommented... But fine, I'll try something else. As people no doubt realise if they've read any of my many rants on the subject before, I don't much care for the d20 system. KotOR has been very tied to d20 so far, and it might be impossible to separate the two. However, I might prefer the devs take that chance and try another system. Anyone else feel that way?

How do you build a life support suit for a cauterised head ? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Probably the same way they did with Simus in The Golden Age of the Sith comic books... Not that I voice support for the idea, mind you - that was pretty silly

Well obviously the scene was written to allow a certain outcome. In the WEG book they have Anakin hanging onto the bridge with his one remaining hand and Obi Wan trying to pull him up. Then Anakin falls into the lava below and Obi Wan never see's him land. Obi Wan dosnt cut his legs off . They burn up because he lands on a platform but his legs go over the side into the lava. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> What I missed in that scene was Obi-Wan overcoming his own sense of compassion and trying to force-push Anakin into the lava to prevent the Sith from growing more poweful from Anakin's strength. Anakin should then have prevented that by pushing back, leaving Obi-Wan no choice but to simply leave - Anakin may have lost his arm and legs, but not his force powers. I mean, Obi-Wan set out to destroy Anakin, to kill him. Basically he slipped up. A scene like the above would have settled that, while also underscoring Anakin's powers even in such a condition.

Oh, how brave and foolish you are... Eat you alive the Bastila-fanboys will! :D

Wrong! The Exile cut himself off from the Force when everybody that he was bonded to, died in horrible agony. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Exactly. The Exile just thought the masters were to blame, since he lost his connection around the same time. In short, he blameshifted because he didn't want to face the truth, which is indeed at the very heart of the matter in KotOR2.

Sorry. I can be verbose at times, I know. That was actually a short post on my part, though. Note that most of it was quotes - you have to blame Obsidian for those He was cast out of the order, which is the only life he had ever known. That he went back to face the council tells us a lot about how much the order meant to him. But cast out and thinking himself cut off from the force, he went where no one knew his shame and disgrace... or so I think. We really don't know, actually. I agree with that. I think she staged the whole thing because she knew what the Exile was and how she could use his unique abilties to fight and destroy the Force.

Actually no. You could not take a stat below 8 in K1, which is only just below average. So a turnip is out of the question :D Okay, I'll take another example. How were any of the following measure in K1? - Carth's piloting abilities. - Canderous' ruthlessness. - T3's computer-hacking skills (Mission wasn't allowed to open the door to the Sith base on Taris) - Zaalbar's sense of loyaty to his life debt. - Mission's friendship with Zaalbar (she left her home to go with him). - HK-47's desire to kill "meatbags" - Bastila's immaturity. - Juhani's volatile nature. You think the state he left Anakin in was merciful compared to death?