Immortalis

Stop defending the middle ground! You are obviously biased towards being unbiased!

Only XP I ever grinded in IE games was the Flesh Golem cave in BG1 where resting spawns more Golems which are fairly easy to kill for 2000 xp. But even they stopped spawning after few rests so you could not really grind them. More importantly.. you don't need to do this to beat the game.. If you chose to do that then you were rewarded for it.. and let's be honest. If range attacks and BG Cheesing wasn't so easy to do.. you wouldn't be grinding them out so easily. If those golems actually were as hard as their experience reward suggests.. you would have to be either VERY good at the game or you would have been run out of that cave instantly. Combat XP != Give us a game that we can easily break mechanically through the abuse of the system. It means reward me for doing things that aren't quests. No it's not.. it's called rebalancing the game to account for the addition of combat xp.. It's not easier then.. doing nothing.. or leaving it the same.. It is however not gonna break the fabric of the universe to make an attempt at. Obsidian is the best company to do it. I'm telling you right now no feature will be removed to do this.. They are in the final months of beta testing, the game is done. It's balancing tweaking and bug fixing.. We aren't gonna lose features to add a good xp system.. Worst case scenario the game MIGHT be delayed.. which is probably a good thing. I would rather wait 2 - 4 months longer then get a buggy lackluster mess when I have already been waiting for a game like this 7 years.

Oh glad we agree. So why is it GrindXP if the xp you gain from enemies is completely optional to complete the game or progress further? You don't need to grind anything. Thanks for continuing to prove Combat XP isn't as bad as you want it to be.

Was it your idea? I really think they should have given you credit, or at least acknowledged that it had been suggested before. I wasn't there for that conversation, and I'm sorry people trolled you. I can only say you are not alone in that experience. If I had my druthers, we'd have good ol' combat XP like in the IE games. But (surprisingly to me) a lot of people don't want it in the game. (I don't get it, either, but if that's what they want, then it's OK for OE to provide a compromise that gives each group of supporters some concessions.) If the fanbase were overwhelmingly in favor of combat XP, I'd be right with you in saying "not good enough". this is an argument that has lasted in fits and starts for two years. we have seen nothing posted in the past three months that is genuine new... which is part of our concern. the obsidian were actual clear 'bout what they meant... two years ago. folks fully debated two years ago. folks had polls two years ago... polls that had far more total responses than the recent versions. folks has offered many perfect options over the course of two years. folks who believe they came up with a clever angle is likely repeating something that were discussed to death a long time ago. in spite of developer clarity, there is even folks who is still getting twisted up over semantics: objective v. quest v. task or other names confuse some people. in spite of developer efforts, people is at least pretending like this is the first time they has seen such nomenclature. is amusing and sad. oh, and these same developers were seeing and hearing and responding to these same complaints Years ago when they were developing bg3 and fo3. but yeah. there is folks who is reflexive defending any developer response. is actual likely confusing to developers. check some o' the developer updates and how people responded compared to complaints the developers is getting these days. nothing has changed from two years ago or from any number o' developer updates, and typical the developers were painful clear regarding mechanics and rules issues, but is actually funny to see some folks complaining today that were acting like women at a 1960s tom jones concert. how many rage monkeys were throwing their digital panties on stage just a short time ago? a developer responds and there is a tendency to overreact. it is unfortunate for the developers, but the ecstasy some experience from basking in a developer's presence (*snort*) is short lived. HA! Good Fun! The difference is back then Josh had the excuse "Well I played the beta and it's awesome.. and you haven't so you don't know yet how awesome it will be" Now after the beta released we still are at a 50 - 50 split in the "polls". We weren't blinded by the awesomeness of this design.. it was just a bunch of OnEnter triggers dumping XP on your face.. Woooooo.. HA! Beta Not So Fun! FYI: Gromnir I just killed you in BG2.. And you dropped XP.. Conspiracy?

Was it your idea? Then they should have given you credit, or at least acknowledged that it had been suggested before. I wasn't there for that conversation, and I'm sorry people trolled you. I can only say you are not alone in that experience. If I had my druthers, we'd have good ol' combat XP like in the IE games. But (surprisingly to me) a lot of people don't want it in the game. (I don't get it, either, but if that's what they want, then it's OK for OE to provide a compromise that gives each group of supporters some concessions.) Until I learned about the (your) bestiary unlock idea, I didn't think a compromise was even possible. It can be made to work reasonably well, provided that - the amount of experience granted by bestiary unlocks is sufficiently motivating - the bestiaries are revealed gradually enough that we don't quickly cap out on this reward - the bestiaries themselves provide interesting/useful information, so that we get not only an XP reward but a tactical/lore reward - the player is notified when an individual tier in a bestiary unlocks, so that after winning a tough fight they receive, if not an immediate XP reward, a promise that they are getting closer to a sizable chunk of experience. Something like "Spider Bestiary Updated". When the final tier is revealed, they should see "Spider Bestiary Unlocked (10,000 XP or whatever)" If the fanbase were overwhelmingly in favor of combat XP, I might be more stubborn on this point. The fact that a compromise is even possible was news to me. I don't mean it like that.. It was a natural solution lots of people mentioned.. The point isn't to say "oh look at me I'm so ****ing smart" the point was to say when I had the idea everyone crapped on it but when Josh had it.. now it's the solution to all our problems. It is / was a good idea and I'm glad he's talking about idea's like this with his team. As for the fan base not being overwhelmingly in favor of it.. it's almost a split 50 - 50 in every poll (I know I know don't say anything about forum polls) that we have had.. 50 - 50 isn't a couple of children crying in the corner while Gromnir sings them a lullaby.. It's time to please both parties.

Clever. PoE looks to me to be a perfectly good spiritual successor to the game. It doesn't to some folks, often based on very narrow definitions of what a spiritual successor *must* be to them personally. Why should Obsidian come out with such a statement? Because some backers think that lack of combat XP means it can't be a tribute to the IE games? I'm a backer. I think it is. Frankly, this proposal is simply baiting Obsidian and they'll likely simply ignore it. They should. I agree that it's silly to disqualify the game as a "spiritual successor" on this basis. Hell, they called Dragon Age: Origins a spiritual successor of Baldur's Gate. PoE is much more so. Beyond that hyperbole, the backslash against cutting combat XP is completely understandable. In the IE games, this mechanic was central to progression and to combat reward. So when the Icewind Dale fans go "WTF", their nostalgia and expectations should not be dismissed as silly or irrelevant. Theirs was my own initial reaction. In fact, I was surprised that so many folks did not want experience from combat, given the game's heritage. Nobody ever complained about it in Baldur's Gate or Icewind Dale. But reading these forums, it's clear that a lot of people like Obsidian's decision. That's why I'm agreeable to a compromise. The bestiary unlocks are good enough for me--certainly preferable to a weird option that makes full clears obligatory to match a default quest-only progression. I wouldn't use such a toggle unless it provided extra experience, but then that's unfair to quest-XP fans. It would have been nice if they'd made this design decision (and its motivation) clearer--at least as clear as the IE nostalgia bait on the project's homepage. A lot of people like whatever Joshes decision is.. There is a lot of koolaid drinking.. When I suggested bestiary gives xp everyone told me to shut up it wasn't needed.. The minute Josh says it though, everyone praises him for dropping a divine olive branch upon the masses.. I am not saying everyone on this forum is like that of course.. But I am sensing that whatever Josh deems as non-degenerative gameplay.. the majority will just agree with it. (On this forum.. it's a different story in other forums) I do agree with you that Combat XP removal does not mean PoE isn't a spiritual successor.. and I agree that people who were upset about it being missing have a legitamate reason to be upset. In fairness Obsidian offers refunds to kickstarters who aren't happy and I doubt anyone will take them up on the offer. I'm not arguing for Combat XP because I feel Obsidian ripped me off and lied to me.. I want Combat XP because I think it will make the game better.

This removes meaningful choice from the game just as much as punishing players for skipping combat does. The minute one choice has an obvious advantage over another it means other other choices have less meaning. At no point in this game will fighting be a better option then bypassing combat if the expenditure of resources is not rewarded by something in return. If combat was very difficult and had high costs to be successful then gave XP.. this would introduce choice. Can I keep fighting? Should I turn back? Should I stealth past? It's only when the non-combat xp crowd takes things to an extremist meta game level and say "I CAN'T DO IT JOSH.. I CAN'T SKIP A SINGLE GIBBERLING.. PLEASE REMOVE COMBAT XP SO I CAN SKIP GIBBERLINGS.. I NEED EVERY XP AND YOU NEED TO STOP ME..".. Me, Stun, Hiro, Volly, Indiria and the caffienated owl guy all enjoy the combat xp without meta gaming the **** out of games. Nobody defending combat xp actually wants it to break the game.. We just want meaningful progression for our choices. It's only people in the non-combat xp crowd to have a problem with meta gaming systems and seem to not be able to help themselves.. despite the level cap.. Wrong again.. It's been stated about 1000 times why this argument is crapThat's not a rebuttal. I could just as easily say that it's been stated about 2000 times why this argument is good. And neither of us would be correct, because the necessity of combat XP for game (and combat) enjoyment is a matter of PERSONAL PREFERENCE. Stop acting like your position is the only reasonable one. Combat XP is a good reward system for RPG gameplay. That doesn't mean it's the only good reward system. OE is doing something different - good for them! Let's help them succeed instead of bitching endlessly about one single feature as if the game will live or die based on its inclusion. The number wasn't important.. try to deflate your ego a bit.. The person in question knows exactly what rebuttals have been made to his argument.. he is rehashing old tales and knows it. If you want to be pedantic about the number then go ahead. I wasn't trying to raise a good rebuttal but remind him of the last 4 closed threads of discussion we had on that argument already.

As it stands now.. I will always take the non-combat route.. Like as if killing beetles for 20 minutes is gonna be fun compared to being engaged by the amazing plot that ziets and avellone wrote.. Take progression and incentive out of taking the harder more challenging routes through the game.. and this game is gonna be a one time play to enjoy the story and then promptly shoved on the shelf next to Dragon Age 2.. So sad.. I was so excited for this game. Wrong again.. It's been stated about 1000 times why this argument is crap

Every crap trash mob cant be a quest because then you have created the situation that the non-kill XP crowd are whining about. Its degenerative gameplay, now Ill be FORCED to kill everything, me OCD!, immurshun, people will stealth past then go back and kill, etc... I don't see what was fixed by doing this.. Just add Combat XP then adjust quests to counter weight things out so that passive quest rewards give higher bonuses to offset the killing of NPC's, then make the NPC's disappear or worth nothing.. or, you could simply leave things the way they is and you don't need have go through what even indira were admitting is a taxing process o' balancing. h Oh well if Indira admitted it then I guess it's all over.. Fact of the matter is.. I don't care how taxing it is. It would be much less taxing if they did this **** a year ago. Making good games is taxing regardless.. if making good games was easy, everyone would do it. I'm a player and I don't care how hard or long it is for them to balance a game at the end of the day. I understand it will take time, that it's hard and that it might mean delays and future patches and a longer beta.. but at the end of the day, it's their job to do it.. and it's been done before. This argument doesn't hold water for me grommy.

Every crap trash mob cant be a quest because then you have created the situation that the non-kill XP crowd are whining about. Its degenerative gameplay, now Ill be FORCED to kill everything, me OCD!, immurshun, people will stealth past then go back and kill, etc... I love you gfted1.. Josh should hire you as a co-designer.. you trim through the bs like a hot knife through butter.. We are just dancing around obvious solutions.. there's no way 3 months before release Josh can whip everyone at obs to generate 1200 more quests to make EVERY encounter meaningful.. like can we come back to reality for a second? Maybe gfted1 will disagree with me here.. but honestly there's a reason most of these games had Combat XP.. it solved the very problem people have been complaining about since beta started.. I'm sorry to the Sawyer fans out there.. I don't see what was fixed by doing this.. Just add Combat XP then adjust quests to counter weight things out so that passive quest rewards give higher bonuses to offset the killing of NPC's, then make the NPC's disappear or worth nothing.. or just flag all quest NPC's to not give XP and let people decide how to do quests without that incentive.. (we will ignore the fact that quest related npc's probably have the best gear in the game so power gamers will still be want to kill them.. which every counter argument glosses over because people realize it invalidates their point)

When I'm already past it, e.g. by having taken an alternative route. Does that mean the chests shouldn't have items either? Or should they teleport in your inventory because you decided to skip the dungeon. wat I don't want XP tied to unlocking chests but your logic is crap because you still miss out on rewards if you skip the chest so what does it matter.. Why is it okay to miss out on items / currency but not okay to skip an xp reward? You don't need the XP reward to beat the game any more then you need gold or items.. you will hit level cap before the game ends.

When I'm already past it, e.g. by having taken an alternative route. Does that mean the chests shouldn't have items either? Or should they teleport in your inventory because you decided to skip the dungeon.

I think either way you should be paying gold.. There is a huge advtange mechanically to building your own companions and making sure their stats and abilities compliement your current group.. In BG1 and 2 you kinda had to roll with what you got.. and sometimes their stats were kinda crappy in certain areas.. Oh Jan.. you suck so much turnip

Yes and I think the pick lock xp and trap xp is even worse.. It's obvious Josh is adding these systems to pander to a crowd he basically disagrees with completely. Imagine playing BG 2 and no creatures or enemies gave XP.. but opening chests did.. That's not degenerative? What??? Bestiary is a step in the right direction.. but it's just so.. hacky.. I dunno.. I wish he gave a **** about our opinions a year ago.. It's like he thought once we all played the beta our eyes would be blinded by the glory of this master plan.. Instead of seeing what it really is.. a bunch of random triggers that dump xp on you from the sky. Josh to your credit.. you have really surprised me.. I didn't expect you to give this thread the time of day when you called me an irrational grognard 2 -3 months ago I thought that was that.. So thank you for taking this mechanic seriously and looking at ways to improve PoE for the other half of your audience that doesn't really wanna play the sawyer abdridged version of BG2..

Flimsy excuse. See my reply to Sawyer in the thread Utukka linked. I saw it, now here's my response: 1) Josh Sawyer has not at all been above limiting player freedom in order to achieve game balance. Expect lots of things to be limiting for balance sake. 2) Free companions would totally break the game. I could just hire 5 five guys and throw them at any tough encounter with little thought put into it. Since their survival wouldn't be concern; suicide attacks would be incredibly OP. Making most of the combat mechanics & quests pointless. 3) Creating your own team is going to be more effective than using the allies Obsidian gives you. So it's worth the gold. 4) For those who care; free companions is lore breaking. I mostly agree with you except for number 2.. We could have had companions limited as another poster said.. by how many companions you naturally get in the game.. Like allow me to hire one everytime a spot is filled naturally by progression.. and of course add a gold cost but at a fraction of what it currently is.. (maybe limit my total group size so I can only have a certain amount at a certain point in the game.. whatever works) Honestly though.. the gold cost doesn't bother me at all.. It's good enough.. people should be more worried about other things IMO.

My goal isn't to discourage killing/combat overall, but to avoid the emphasis of combat solutions as the de facto best way to resolve quests (unless the quest is fundamentally about killing someone/thing, of course) and to avoid the player feeling compelled to kill everything they come across. I think it will be good for the game if a player can ask themselves, "Am I losing out by not completing this area with combat?" and sometimes answer, "Nah." Quest only XP accomplishes this, but obviously a lot of people want to gain XP from fighting. Short of having a separate mode where you get combat XP from everything and all of the quest XP is rebalanced around that, bestiary unlocking XP is the best solution I've come up with to accomplish both goals. But this happens anyways.. unless quest flagged npc's don't drop items.. Killng npc's will always provide the best reward vrs time.. Why not just flag all npc's related to a quest as quest-related and make them not give any xp.. The biggest reason people want xp for fighting thing's is completely unrelated to quest content but all the crap in between.. The beetle forest.. the Lion Entrance.. the cultist filled rooms... The random forest you explore off the beaten path, filled with wolves and wyverns and whatever else.. The xp rewards are too chunked out and not rewarding you for doing work or succeeding, just for stepping on triggers. You have changed the meta of this game from "Create a party good at combat in a combat centered game" to "create a party of wizards and rogues who can stealth and invis past annoying crap I don't wanna fight".. If your arguing that's another legitmate way of playing the game.. skipping content because it forces you to consume resources when the same reward can be gotten for having a spellbook filled with invis spells.. thats just as degenerative as killing things that actually fight back on a quest.

I love how the minute Josh suggests an idea.. All the people who were against Kill Xp have instantly flip flopped to "well that would be okay".. Even though we were talking about this solution like a month ago and people said it would suck.

No but you can still do it.

Nope .. I think they were in the air on it but they settled their choice fairly early on. This is a CORE mechanic.. I doubt obsidian even has the grid system for that.. they are clearly using walkmeshes painted on a flat plane.. There's no logic in there for turn queues or movable locations.. I mean it COULD be done.. not on a grid system but use the system D:OS did and using the existing hit detection system maybe.. but it would be a huge endeavor to reprogram everything and as said before.. That's not what the IE games were.. not to parrot treaded water or be religious to what was done before but thats a pretty radical change.. Up for debate if it would make it better or not.. I personally would prefer RtWP for this game. OH and Yadda Yadda.. Combat feels repetitive because no Combat XP.. but Josh knows best.

It's not my sole responsibility to do this. I'm working at it, along with everyone else in this thread (and many others) who's not unreasonably focused on protesting general design evaluations. "Like what?"? Well, I can't answer that, because it'd be shunned as a --*gasp*-- generality! Tell you what... I won't reply again until I have the EXACT formula to fix everything, all by myself. You're welcome, So then your original point was moot. If you can't point to a single fact.. don't use that rational as an excuse to prove someone was wrong. If I put all your posts back to back and read them you are zipping around and flip flopping everywhere.. you just type a lot, you aren't giving us anything of substance. Again.. no offense.. but how can I possibly respond / argue / agree / understand your points and thought process if whenever we get to the meat of the subject you throw your hands up and say "well I don't have anything nowwwww... but like that's just your opinion man"

Uhh no? If this game sells and they get a new designer who actually enjoyed BG1 / BG 2.. would be nice to plan for PoE 2. Seriously? You'd be happy with wonky broken un-fun combat, if you get more portraits? Don't know about "people," but that would certainly not make me happy. Maybe he assumes that balancing and bug fixing will actually take place during the balancing and bug fixing part of the development schedule, and isn't too keen on yelling "the sky is falling" from a position of ignorance, like most people on this forum are? As opposed to the snarky trolls who only post anything of quality when they don't like something.. Your best posts are when you hear something about the game you don't like and start arguing about it.

Those people exist everywhere.. I would like to think though that 90% of that angst can be removed if the company shows a true concern for their player base and actually communicates with them and has their best interests at heart. I know there were a few people on the WL2 forum that were becrying the sky is falling.. but generally the community was pretty positive and InXile took a lot of that feedback to heart. Best of all, Brother None and Brian and Sea and many others are active in discussion and give players feedback on their comments and talk with their player base.. even if it's not what everyone wants to hear.. the doors are always open. Josh just tells people they are wrong and he disagrees or ignores us completely. That's not really a discussion.. Then after the game ships and people aren't happy.. Josh blames the engine or time frame or that he only came in at the end or says that he could have improved x y z and will remember it as a lesson learned for the next game.

Then, exploration doesn't matter as much. Forgive me for clipping 3/4 of your post, but ^^^This^^^ is actually a really good point. And one I frequently bring up on these XP threads. So I want to focus on it. Let me make my stance clear. I do not advocate Kill XP because I'm greedy and wish to be rewarded every 10 seconds. I advocate Kill XP because of what you've just said here. I'm looking at the big picture. I'm concerned about whether or not I'll still love doing an RPG's side content 5 years from now, when I'm on my 10th playthrough or more....when there's no more discovery. No more thrill-of-the-unknown... when even the story has lost some of its appeal. For me, the process of leveling, and getting rewarded for doing things (like killing enemies) can *carry* an RPG, as it keeps things important.... Combat (and even exploration) will still matter on the 10th playthrough because you'll be getting rewarded for engaging in it. Of course, this argument can also apply to quest XP, but unless all combat encounters are tied to a quest (which we already know won't be the case), Quest XP won't cover all the bases, and that's my worry. I actually disagree.. Sorta.. I think even my first play through.. if combat doesn't reward anything.. I will find it tedious and in the way of my exploration and story telling experience.. I don't actually enjoy combat without a reward.. unless I am emotionally invested in the combat.. AKA the fight with Sarevok or Tarnesh or whatever was cool.. I probably didn't notice the xp at all. Fighting beetles even in a location that is new and exciting.. just feels tedious.. if the beetles won't give me anything I am gonna stealth past them probably.. not because I want to be sneaky, I just don't wanna spend time fighting beetles for an hour. If PoE promised a good solid plot context for every combat situation.. it would be called Planescape: Numenara.. We know that's not gonna happen. So I want some incentive to not skip the forest of beetles. *shrug* Maybe I am being too picky. EDIT: To clarify.. the part I disagreed with sorta was that.. Even on my first playthrough I am gonna get sick of the combat in side areas if it doesn't reward me for doing it. It won't take me 5 play throughs to hate fighting beetles. The progression makes challenging combat fun.

If Dragon Age 2 and Witcher 2 are any indication.. It won't be a competition so much as a fat kid rolling on the ground and a majestic Geralt riding a white stallion across the finish line.. But seriously.. I pre-ordered both. This is basically Biowares last chance to prove they are more then a SJW simulation creator (with heavily reused areas and multi-particle colored endings) EDIT FYI - I live with my girlfriend, work full time (more then 40 hours a week) as a software developer and go to the gym 3 days a week.. I promise you I will have more then enough time to play both these games.