Immortalis

Sorry if I am blind and missed it.. but would you be against kicking off a git / svn repository if you were planning on maintaining this source for release?

I think one thing we need to really discuss though in regards to the hard work people have been doing is combat xp. Thanks Guys for all the bug reporting and game systems feedback. I am sure PoE will be better for it. Even though i disagree with almost all of you on something.

As a fellow software developer I think the backer beta could have been a good idea but was poorly executed. InXile released their beta a year before release, created a bug submission tool for backers to send bugs and feed back.. and gave themselves time to adjust their game to meet backers expectations.. Obsidian cashed the check.. told us they know whats best.. released a backer beta as a semi marketing tool and to fullfill their kickstarter promise.. then ignored us while fixing bugs to ship the game on time. One company acted in a above and beyond ethical way and made me more excited to play Wasteland 2.. and one company told us to stfu Josh knows best and be happy with what ships. FYI beneath all the Brian Fargo hype.. you see a man who has true dedication to his craft.. he kicked in his own money and sold some more games on discount on steam AND pushed the release date of the game back almost a year to ensure we got something amazing.. it wasn't a cash out for him.. maybe some people won't like the game but I was totally surprised by how they handled it. Even though PoE was my most anticipated game.. I just get more disappointed and pissed off every day. [/opinion]

Really? Do you buy an RPG to just play it once?Because after that first playthrough your stated reason for exploring has been eliminated. You now know what's out there. Then what? Then, exploration doesn't matter as much. I play RPGs for much more than just exploring the world though. I replay for reliving the story or "exploring" new solutions for quests or different interactions with characters. I'm sure you will probably find quests by exploring, and therefore, exploring will gain you experience anyway. K but now you just pulled another cup and ball game where you shifted the argument again.. "I play RPGs for much more than just exploring the world though." No ****.. we all do.. He was making a point don't be reductive.

This more then anything.. an argument can be made for privileged calls in the case of anti cheat detection (during run time.. **** you Punkbuster) but I can't agree enough.. Register data is a dinosaur.. Let the OS use that.. use the FAT.. I love when I install GoG indie games and all I get is a binary and a configurations / asset folder. I can move it around.. move it to another pc.. no worries. Installers and Register usage needs to die. EDIT: I was using the term FAT ironically.. before someone gives me a 101 on modern hard drive file allocation.

Agreed. Reputation is far from an improvement over alignment. It's just different. Reputation: How people perceive you. Alignment: How you actually are. One is definitely NOT better than the other. I like both, but if I had to choose I would prefer alignment. Especially if alignment would have mattered as much in poe as it did in BG1. I really loved how your alignment determined what kind of Bhaal powers you got. Play evil? Get a power where you drain the life out of others; like the jerk you are. Play good? Get a power to heal yourself and others; like a nice guy. Made that game not only different, but different mechanically; which I consider more important than how it affects the story. My point is.. the reputation system has clear archetypes like.. ****y or Aggressive or Honest.. these archetypes have replaced the Lawful Evil / Chaotic Good archetypes. Those old archetypes were useless except for certain dialogue choices and class choices.. they sucked.. I see this new system as a merging and improvement of reputation (a number that says whether guards attack you or not) and your alignment (basically useless) I think those systems naturally blend together nicely.. whereas in the IE games.. a low reputation basically screwed you in every way except to get certain companions..

This sounds like more work because now they need a new talent tree and it will probably just piss everyone off because it doesn't solve either sides issues with combat rewards.

Like I posted somewhere else the aligment system was a huge part of most IE games but their was no outcry after they said that they dont have something similar in the game. Why? [/facts] <Your Opinion Follows> Because it was a shallow mechanic that they improved on.. Instead of axing it. The xp system isn't being improved to provide more granularity in xp rewards.. it is being axed and clumped out at key points because balancing is hard! Just so you don't bring up another weak argument.. The alignment system wasn't removed.. it was transformed into a much more complex C&C system where your actions dictate a wide scope of different traits that people perceive you as.. Instead of just picking some generic trait at the start of the game.. AKA 1 choice and shallow consequences. There was no outcry because that's a good system.. better then anyone thought of back in the day.. You think if Bioware asked us during BG 2 Development if we could have one or the other anyone would say "go for the shallow crappy system that's easier to implement" I love your apple and oranges comparison.. Alignment system and xp system aren't even close to the same situation in PoE. Can you stop making weak arguments if your gonna take the aggressive stance that you do? Why don't you bring up blood lines while your at it.. since we are gonna be comparing toasters and chickens all day. Make a new post instead of editing. You say its a shallow argument, so you basicaly want to tell me what was part of the IE experience and what is not? Its a changed system, they changed it. That means it isnt the same as in the IE games. Everyone can decide for themself if its an improvement. You seem to think that you have the right to choose for everyone whats an improvement and what is not. As I said this are all arguments about opinions and at the very moment were you present an opinion as fact you make your self look like an arogant prick. You can think whatever you want about my opinion but it does not make your opinion worth more. See I personaly dont care much about how they give out XP in an RPG because for me its just a way to level and if its not a dungeon grind fest I dont care if I get xp for kills or whatever. You make the mistake of assuming that your opinion about game system and parts is shared with other people. As I showed you in that XP example their is at least one guy (me) that does not share your opinion and because those are all opinions their is no absolute right or wrong. TL/DR stop presenting an opinion as fact. EDIT: Its also funny that you made that editing of my post "your opinion flows" not realizing that well your post is also just an opinion. No matter how desperatly you try to make it sound like fact. What part was my opinion? The alignment system was changed.. it was improved and had more depth added. The XP system was changed.. it was dumbed down.. became less complicated more static. One change gives us more dynamic choices and one creates a more linear experience. [/fact] [immortalis opinions] I think these changes are not equal in value and are not comparable to say we didn't bitch about one so that makes the other okay. Your arguments are weak.. their premise is wrong. [/opinions] I was at the gym for the last hour.. I never actually edited that post in the time span between your two posts.. sooo.. Dunno what your mad about there. EDIT: Captain Shrek basically nailed my fact portion on the head.. He may disagree with my opinions but I don't think you can logically say I am wrong about how these systems were changed for PoE..

Like I posted somewhere else the aligment system was a huge part of most IE games but their was no outcry after they said that they dont have something similar in the game. Why? [/facts] <Your Opinion Follows> Because it was a shallow mechanic that they improved on.. Instead of axing it. The xp system isn't being improved to provide more granularity in xp rewards.. it is being axed and clumped out at key points because balancing is hard! Just so you don't bring up another weak argument.. The alignment system wasn't removed.. it was transformed into a much more complex C&C system where your actions dictate a wide scope of different traits that people perceive you as.. Instead of just picking some generic trait at the start of the game.. AKA 1 choice and shallow consequences. There was no outcry because that's a good system.. better then anyone thought of back in the day.. You think if Bioware asked us during BG 2 Development if we could have one or the other anyone would say "go for the shallow crappy system that's easier to implement" I love your apple and oranges comparison.. Alignment system and xp system aren't even close to the same situation in PoE. Can you stop making weak arguments if your gonna take the aggressive stance that you do? Why don't you bring up blood lines while your at it.. since we are gonna be comparing toasters and chickens all day.

This idea seems pretty interesting. I like it. One drawback, though, some "munchkins" would then just go hunting for new and exotic baddies all the time, to level up faster. Mind you, I have no problem with that at all. It would certainly reward exploration, and doing so, will mean taking bigger risks, surely you'll get in a world of trouble for doing it. Sounds fun! Sounds more fun to just give small incremental xp for exploring to reward as far as you can get.. then maybe having some strong creatures that you have to come back for because they are too strong award the big boy xp. To be clear.. generalized xp per encounter instead of per chopped head is acceptable.. I don't need to see the individual numbers or anything.. and that encounter xp could be removed if you took the dialogue or stealth path in certain situations. I just want a tangible incentive to explore certain areas.. risk vs reward... award me for doing something.. help me justify using consumables and spending time fighting beetles other then.. HURR HURR FIREBALL MAKE BUGS DIE

****ing this.Hard to disagree with this perspective. Also I fail to see hiw Helm qualifies as a troll. He makes salient observations and I haven't seen any personal attacks. He's allowed to have his opinion, but cheerleaders get easily confused when their biases are challenged and everyone who hurts their fanboy must be a troll? The net game is the same: ignore him because you can't handle it or offer a cogent aegument, but don't fool yourself into thinking that's Helm's problem. Then clearly haven't seen his posts around the forum. He acts like a child 50% of the time. And I have no reason get butthurt. I can't even get the game to run at the moment, I wouldn't say Helm is the most polite person on this forum.. but he gets trashed on a lot and his response is usually snarky sarcasm in return. I found the irony in you calling him a child and still after several edits of your post, you were barely able to spit out a proper sentence. I will assume (hope) english isn't your first language. I wish "Bill Gate's Son" would stop liking every post that bashes Helm calling him a "troll" when that account is obviously a troll account.

Like what? Don't speak in generalities.. come up with a solution that pleases both sides..

If you have to encourage exploration through the jimmy of killing things, that's bad design. No it's not.. some people don't enjoy exploration without a goal.. If everyone hates your exploration system without beetles to kill then yes it may be time to revise.. But you really need to stop speaking in absolutes.. There is a huge percentage of players who just don't enjoy exploration of a fantasy world inherently fun but still love the IE games.. you can't discount them just because it's not what you enjoy about the game.

But now Gromnir will state you're the schmuck for not being able to comprehend the semi-invented language and lax spell checking he does in almost any post. It's like if I post in pig Latin and you tell me "wtf are you talking about" then I say that my pig Latin post is a detector for retards who I don't need to talk to anymore.. This literally makes sense to him and he even believes he's the mature one on this board. I used to like Gromnir because I thought he didn't take himself too serious.. After 5 years.. I see this man has some deep seated issues I wouldn't even begin to try and tackle..

As a neutral on the whole XP issue, I don't think either side can claim to have the moral high ground. I didn't say that did I? Not sure how neutral you are being.

And quests were hard? No but it took more time to complete them. Uh.. and? I am guessing by your short posts.. that you forgot the point your trying to make.. or you just realized your pretending to know why we want something.. when we supposedly don't know.. Isnt it obvious? Read through the pro-kill-xp posts and you will find out that most of them replayed the game multible times. Questing, aka the story does not entertain after your (i guess) second run so they want a way to skip most of it. Which is what kill-xp offers them. Just worry about your opinions from now on.. You missed the mark in a big way.

You know all they have to do is say create hidden.... open world objectives where say ... "Solving the spider problem" is a potential hidden objective. How do you accomplish it? Killing the queen. Thus you get exp for killing her but only because she was part of a hidden objective. This same concept could be applied to "Finding the Legenardy Whizzbang Tome", or "Exploring the Moonlight Cavern". To be honest I think this game does need some of these hidden non quest based objectives. I don't think it "needs" combat exp though. The point is this.. Can they implement a system that replaces combat xp but gives us a similar feeling of open world and non-linear gameplay.. the feeling I can go anywhere and do anything and I will likely progress my characters doing it.. YES! But they didn't.. and not only that.. this new magical system your talking about is a new concept.. I can't recall any game that has done this type of system and it does sound cool.. but it's not there.. Combat XP has been done.. they know how to do it.. it's not even that hard to do.. especially for a company like obsidian. Of course in a perfect world.. xp won't drop out of a wolfs asss onto your character and then he can open locks better.. but the system they have now sucks.. And quests were hard? No but it took more time to complete them. Uh.. and? I am guessing by your short posts.. that you forgot the point your trying to make.. or you just realized your pretending to know why we want something.. when we supposedly don't know..

Touchy for who? Us or Josh? Why do I get the feeling that many people in Obsidian wanted combat XP but Josh is bull heading everyone into submission? Very interesting quote.. trying to not read too much into it.. but what the Fack is going on over there.. Grossly oversimplification by someone who is completely biased. Not actually the argument most of us are posing.. your "side" is just as toxic, infact even more so and are generally the first to derail these threads or **** post. Infact except for a few rare cases.. most people arguing against combat -xp are generally using strawmen arguments, misquoting or just have blind dedication to whatever the developers chose. I have found much more compelling arguments for combat -xp removal on the Codex which is just sad.. Although I am still not convinced it can work given the state of the game currently (not counting bugs or patchable quirks.. the philosiphy of this game was obviously episodic leveling) So basically.. Hey Kids! Do you love baldurs gate? Do you love Black isle? Well here's a game that brings us back to the roots.. inspired by Baldurs gate and directed by our lead designer who hates those games and will be redesigning everything.. which you won't know until the kickstarter check cashes. Enjoy!

Oh god not again.. Apples and Oranges.. Bloodlines suffered from lack of combat xp because the combat gets boring. I basically try to skip past or avoid it as much as possible whenever I play the game. For the most blatant offense See Final Sewer Level where 99% of players either run through it to the endng or quit the game. Apples and Oranges.... Seriously...

I would agree with that.. although I do agree with some of the nay sayers of combat xp on other topics.. When I see how disrespectful and rude they get I almost feel dirty agreeing with them on anything..

I don't know if this thread should exist or not.. maybe it should be locked.. I just love that the superior-then-thou who critique Helm for being a jerk are always the first to **** post under the guise of extreme sarcasm.

Oh look.. someone so butt hurt that they are jumping the gun before reading thread title / content. Thanks for setting this thread off to a great start.

What parts need tweaking? The system part Only a master detective like L could have told you that!

Interesting fact: You can grind trash mobs for XP in Planescape: Torment. In fact you can do it more than in Icewind dale and Baldurs Gate combined. Everything endlessly respawns in PS:T. Remember? PS:T even gives you a portable dungeon you can carry around in your inventory. Anytime the urge to grind and grind for XP takes you, you can simply enter that dungeon and fight the endlessly respawning modrons for 4000xp each. Forever. Can I like this 1000 times? Once again people talking out their butt end.. Most people who reference PS:T have never played or beaten the game but hold it up as some kind of pillar of greatness. It's like that one RPG nobody is allowed to dislike.. but barely anyone played it. I think if most of you fired up PS:T today.. even if you did play it before and love it.. the rose tinted glasses would crack. Stun is right.. I'v never seen a more grindable game then PS:T and ironically it was the one game in the series that didn't need any combat or kill xp

Sensuki asking Josh Sawyer about the quality of PoE combat in his RPGCodex interview: Josh: "Honestly, I think it will take us a while to exceed the complexity of IWD2 fights. IWD2 and BG2 were built with a lot of tried-and-true scripting functions that programmers and designers developed over previous titles and expansions. Like any other feature, AI in PoE is being built from the ground up, so we have to add layers of complexity over time." Yeah all those people saying herp derp they had better AI in BG2. Why is the AI so ****ty in PoE 15 years later. Its like saying herp derp why cant you build a proper moon rocket... they build the first one 50 years ago! LOL terrible analogy. We've got dune buggies driving around on Mars now. We didn't have the technology for that 50 years ago. Analogy aside I can sympathize with Josh on this point.. Developing a competent scripting system isn't exactly easy.. Developing competent AI on top of that.. even harder..