Immortalis

Yeah. And let's not forget the monstercyclopedia updates, which is a really good feature, by the way - not only does it make you more efficient at fighting, it achieves that by broadening your tactical horizon instead of just giving a flat damage bonus (unlike the "[creature type] hunter"-style perks in Alpha Protocol and FNV, which also kicked in after killing lots of a certain creature type), feeds nicely into the skill system, and achieves verisimilitude by making you more efficient at fighting only against opponents you actually have experience at fighting. To be honest.. I don't think the monster cyclopedias are a real tangible reward.. they are awesome and cool.. don't get me wrong.. two thumbs up obsdian.. but they are a lore tool strictly.. The information the cyclopedias will give is not only extremely meta abusable.. they don't offer a lot of useful information that makes you stronger.. Fire Elemental.. hmm what damage type is that creature not weak against.. I wonder.. On the first playthrough they may be semi useful.. after that.. they will just be this cool thing that gives me back text and cool information.. unless they also give you some kind of bonus to the type of monster they are describing.. EDIT: Did I miss some functionality of these things btw..? Maybe I did.

I agree, that was my biggest question in how they plan to scale difficulty some time ago. Picking dialog options can't really be made harder. Yeah, the unavoidable conflict between noncombat resolution having a static difficulty* while combat is heavily dependent on character level is one of the reasons why I think it's more fair to give the same xp for the completion of objectives, regardless of the route taken. *I mean, picking the right dialog can be made really frikkin' hard (think of Alpha Protocol's endgame), but assuming two players have the same stat allocation, said difficulty is solely dependent on their player skill. I think that's fine.. the reason I want kill -xp has nothing to do with quests honestly.. although I admit quests are affected by the mechanic and it needs to be addressed.. but I don't think combat should be rewarded with more xp.. the difficulty of fighting is offset by item rewards anyways..

I agree wholeheartedly.. but after arguing with the casual crowd about kill-xp.. im sure they know my opinion on this and already disagree with me.

Sawyer implied early on in one of these debates it *was* something that could be changed late in development (how late is something I could only guess) - In short, there's still very much hope. I would say there definitely is hope, but Sawyer considers combat XP to be "degenerate gameplay", not to mention that he has insulted us for wanting combat XP (or similar mechanic) a few times. What I am trying to say is that he is firmly convinced that the current system is perfect. But I dunno, let's see what happens. Maybe Feargus will finally put his foot down or maybe Sawyer will finally realise that there actually is a problem. I have to admit I am pretty happy by that sawyer post.. too bad it was from Dec 2012 and not yesturday in this thread.. I don't know what that means for PoE.. I wish he would look at the forum a little more seriously.. we aren't all a bunch of whining grognards.. some of us have good ideas about what is fun for us without having the issue of being too close to the game.. I don't think any developer on this game can objectively know what will work and not work after 2 years of development.. you need a sanity check from people who have never seen it.. I feel this beta was that sanity check.. just wish Josh would let us know how they feel about the feedback.. Are we all just stupid and whiney and don't know what fun is? Is the beta too narrow of a vertical slice for us to understand his genius? Or did their idea sorta **** the bed when it left the design paper and got implemented. Please say something Josh besides "Irrational Kids gonna Irrational".. We are your "beloved" fans after all.. the ones you say you aim to please and talk to now that there is no publisher.. I am still convinced that objective xp is inherently fairer and easier to implement well than a combination of kill xp and objective xp. I am also incredibly disappointed that based on the beta, "objective xp" seems to mean "quest xp only" for PoE. Edit: I also feel a mix of shame and betrayal at the fact that after months of repeating "no, you kill xp guy are blowing this out of proportion, surely the devs wouldn't be so incompetent as to reduce 'objective xp' to 'you only get xp for completing quests'" I am proven spectacularly wrong by the beta. Anyways, let's get back to our previous discussion which got a bit lost in the noise. Spawn More Overlords! Sorry.. couldn't help myself.

Dude, do you not understand the poll? 90% of the voters want a different XP system than the one that is currently implemented in the game, which is quest only XP (the first option). Do you not understand what a vocal minority is? It probably looks something like the 130 or so people that decided to participate in the poll. Do you understand what extrapolation is? 130 people isn't a lot but it is enough to see that a extremely large majority don't like the current XP system (which is understandable, because it sucks) I want to point out that the poll is not inclusive of every backer.. However I did notice a lot of people who don't generally post on this forum appearing out of the blue to comment after the beta.. I think people don't actually know about the choices developers are making for fear of spoilers.. I would be in that same group if I hadn't seen the Tim Cain interview. I notice the larger majority of this forum.. were in favor of.. whatever the developers want. Now after the beta.. the poll seems somewhat biased towards kill xp especially if you just count people who are new to the discussion and weren't chest beating for the last 2 threads.. I have no empirical data obviously but this seems to be what is going on.. the kill-xp group was originally greatly outnumbered in opinions in this forum but our position is strongly represented in the polls and every day that number is climbing.. and yet we 6 have already voted.

Dude, do you not understand the poll? 90% of the voters want a different XP system than the one that is currently implemented in the game, which is quest only XP (the first option). Not to mention we allowed multiple votes.. which means even the least favorite options are bound to get a few pity points from people who wanna be edgy or can't make up their mind.. Can you stop **** posting in this thread like it's the codex.. If you disagree then state your opinion.. Don't get into a pissing contest and ruin this thread too.. To clarify.. you can disagree with Stun, you can think his ideas are silly.. but don't attack him personally. It just makes your arguments look weaker.

Wait What?

Did you seriously type this out and say.. "yea I made a good argument"

No the problem is people deciding to go grind monsters knowing there is no kill xp. Having fun and getting loot then being shocked they didn't also get xp on top of it for grinding. Sorry even if people did this.. which doesn't matter.. how does that affect you? You don't want kill -xp because it makes you mad someone might munchkin the game? They will do it anyways.. This is a very poor reason to base a mechanic around. "I'm mad some people might do something I won't do in a single player game.."

This poll is multiple choice so it isn't very accurate anyway. But we had polls exactly like this over a year ago, and quest/objective xp + kill xp (like in the IE games) won of course. Did anything change? Nope. Were we ignored? Yup. The poll isn't gonna change anything on it's own.. Josh doesn't give a **** about what the majority of people want.. We aren't a publisher. I just want him to open up dialogue with us.. The poll just says.. Hey guys the direction your going is pissing off a lot of your backers.. and you can't hide behind the "well we played it and you haven't so nanana boo boo" Bugs withstanding.. we've played it now.. nothing has changed.. beetles and lions are still not dropping jaws over here..

Agreed.. Although those opinions may remain in contrast to mine.. it's not fair to say the system isn't working because of bugs.. Bugs will be fixed.. this is a debate / discussion on mechanics. Although I am noticing a lot more traffic from high level backers who maybe assumed kill-xp was on the menu and don't seem to happy about it not being.. I know a lame ass forum poll shouldn't dictate the direction of a game.. but people had an expectation when kickstarting and for Josh to say "shut up and don't buy it".. well I mean too late.. At least have some open dialogue about it..

Bugs are bugs.. it's just funny how helpless Gromnir feels being unable to have his Good Fun without the "collect ogre head" quest he was defending 2 weeks ago..

Well, the good news about the beta is that 1) it starts you off with camping supplies and 2) You're never far away from the village inn. Here was my playstyle for the first wilderness map: 1)Fight an encounter. 2) Rush back to the tavern to rest. 3) go back and fight another encounter 4) Rush back to the inn to rest. If Josh thought he could eliminate or even reduce rest-spamming with his design ideas, he was horribly mistaken. I think rested more in a single playthough of this beta than I did in 7 chapters of IWD1. I agree with your statement.. but i can't bring myself to Like this.. this is horrible.. Lol

His name was Tarnesh (Tarnish?).. And the words "Hi Friend.." are burned into my skull.. P.s. Challenge is good.. I'm sure they will work out the quirks. EDIT: And also it was the Friendly Arm Inn.. Common guys.. pretend you played the IE games at least.. lol!

I think it's more fair to say he was leaning towards kill -xp but had an open mind.. I fear the beta will close his mind wide shut and brace the doors with any furniture he can find. My cross to bear was the "rest spot". I definitely prefer kill XP but Im not married to it unless the alternative sucks. I thought objective XP worked in Shadowrun but it really sounds like a stinker in PoE. You guys are worrying me. I want to love this game but I already see myself walking away from it. Maybe I shouldn't play the Beta. I trust Obsidian to fix it.. we just need to see if Josh can swallow his pride a bit.. obviously the system and theories about how people think wasn't exactly accurate. Bribe us to fight beetles Josh.. Bribe me to fight beetles.. Don't tell me to not play the game.. just bribe me! The current xp system needs to be patched up.. does that mean kill xp? I doubt it.. but please give it a chance in future games Obsidian.. I don't wanna have to use a mod for every future IE Styled game you guys make.

I think it's more fair to say he was leaning towards kill -xp but had an open mind.. I fear the beta will close his mind wide shut and brace the doors with any furniture he can find.

Unfortunately, a lot of the mechanics of the IE games have been deemed "degenerative gameplay" and have been removed in favor of the systems you see now. IE wasn't perfect I understand it.. but at this point people have tried the beta.. seen the problem.. and now we are getting every suggestion under the sun other then the one that worked..

The problem with removing trashmobs is that those maps start to feel empty. Starting to feel the effects of Occams Razor.. everyone understands the problem but the easiest solution.. do what IE did.. is just not an option on the table.. instead we need things to randomly drop epic items.. or not exist at all.. or hand place little clouds of xp in random places.. Seriously.. can we just do what IE did to solve this problem.. that is the game that was kickstarted...

If I'm roleplaying a diplomat or a trickster or a scholar or a pampered noble who has no reason or intentions of getting to damp, cramped spaces where various monsters try to kill him/her just for the hell of it, then yes, the only reason for me to break character and go down is the fact that my character would be severely underleveled/geared if I skipped that content. Soo... he will likely be undergeared still if you avoid every dungeon you possibly can in PoE regardless.. or are you still trolling?

That still wouldn't solve the problem, the character progress curve would still be erratic. If by "erratic" you mean "fairly easy for the developer to predict and balance around", then yes. Otherwise I'm just not seeing it. It's not going to be "fairly easy".. dude seriously.. the scope of this game is huge don't be silly.. I'm sure Obs can do it but don't make it sound like a few weeks of work.. that's huge if they haven't planned it from the start. U w0t m8. I'll take this as you just being religiously addicted to one side and ran out of logical things to say.. I never trolled you or paid you a diservice.. if your gonna **** post please take it to /b/ or the codex. Thanks. EDIT: Fixed Yes, it's fairly easily fixed, but the original question was "why is double dipping a problem at all", not "how can we solve this problem?" We never said this.. Double dipping can be a problem.. but munchkins will always find a way.. its not the biggest problem.

Because, generally speaking, people don't find that fun, but they just do it anyway. Also, you know what's even less fun than going back to kill the enemies you've so expertly sneaked by/parleyed with/whatever? Feeling that the game is actively punishing you with half xp for sticking to a character concept which doesn't include "I go back to kill those I've negotiated with, because I'm not a ****ing sociopath". Even without kill-xp if your wiling to skip an entire dungeon with your maxed diplomacy you are short changing yourself of a huge area that was designed by obsidian, any potential treasures or enemy drops and possibly flavor or rolepaly text. Is XP the only reason you do dungeons? Common.. your missing out stuff anyways.. don't blame kill-xp for your unhappiness at skipping content. EDIT: I'v never killed NPC's or monsters of parlayed with in any IE game.. the level cap means theres no point trying to squeeze every xp possible.. seriously.. you hit cap long before the final boss.. theres no point.

That still wouldn't solve the problem, the character progress curve would still be erratic. If by "erratic" you mean "fairly easy for the developer to predict and balance around", then yes. Otherwise I'm just not seeing it. It's not going to be "fairly easy".. dude seriously.. the scope of this game is huge don't be silly.. I'm sure Obs can do it but don't make it sound like a few weeks of work.. that's huge if they haven't planned it from the start.

Yes, that's the largest issue. How about you just not award any exp for killing those specific enemies after the quest is completed? And maybe no loot can be dropped from them either, not sure about that one. Been saying this for 3 weeks.. *sigh*

Way I see it, it looks a lot easier to implement than "assign arbitrary xp values for every creature type, tally all the xp one can get in the different areas of the game with the current xp system, make sure that the creatures' xp value remains steadily lower than the quest xp totals, assign an amount of xp to the completion of certain milestones in the quest that makes up for the discrepancy between the current xp totals and the kill xp totals, then figure out a way to reward noncombat resolutions with the same amount of xp as killing would, even when the player chooses to slaughter his way through some encounters and avoid others, and on top of that, make double dipping impossible, oh and also reward the use of individual noncombat skills such as Mechanics, taking care that the same amount of xp can be gathered with every possible combination of noncombat skills one might have". Because essentially that's what the implementation of kill xp would require if you don't want to **** over those who would prefer to solve their problems in other ways than turning the opposition into cute red stains on the floor. Just because you describe it in a long paragraph doesn't mean it's harder to implement then hand placing xp rewards for all the things people want.. Unless they have no systems or code in place for giving xp for the death of a creature.. this could take significant time to implement cleanly no matter which way they go.. If we are talking balance.. if they have some kind of formula for using creatures difficulty and level to determine the xp reward.. maybe update the quests and it could be feasible. P.S. I would like to note that we have stopped arguing that there is a problem.. and now people are arguing how to solve it..

yea I made this point several times.. I don't see why this is a problem..