Skills are the solution to dump stats. Additionally, there should be dump stats for given classes because this is a team based game - you want a team of specialists, not a team of generalists. The Fighter has no use for Resolve if someone else is going to be the party's "face," although tying skills like Intimidate to Resolve can make it useful and valued even for a non-"face" Fighter.
Feat requirements or changes to armor, items, etc also reinforce the value of stats. Part of the reason stats feel so unimportant and "weak" in Pillars is because they affect almost nothing outside of their MMO-like minor stat adjustments. There are no talents which require certain minimum attributes, skills are independent of attributes, certain weapons don't rely on certain attributes, etc.
I can't say I agree at all. First of: I think skills are rather a symptom of DnD stats beging garbage in some departments and a lousy attempt at a solution for their glaring weaknesses.
I like having skills, but them being tied to certain attributes doesn't have that much of an impact with some, makes them even obsolete. Why invest in attributes if I can just skill it.
How does a team based game constitute for dumpstats - that don't have or should exist at all, if you ask me. As long as different classes do different things with them, utilize them in interesting, unique ways, I see no problem. And just because a stat isn't a dump stat, doesn't mean I have to specialize in it. I can just take my companions in different ways.
Why do I want a team of specialists? That depends entirely on the campaign, setting, set of characters, challenges, playstyle etc. You can achieve a well rounded group a number of ways, not only by your black-white approach.
I don't know what you did with your runs - I for one could finally take points in a leader stat as a tank and frontliner. Because it IS useful, even if you have a face already.
I agree that stat requirements enforce value on them. But I can't say thats always a good thing. Well, Charisma is a useless stat? But you have to take it, if you want ... er ... well this feat we just invented! See how useful charisma is, guys? It is simple gating of content. Nothing magical or clever or even well thought out. I think of it as lazy. Where you see the solutions, I see problems.
Min maxing is already common among players that, well, want to min max. For virtually every class and role, Might and Intelligence are god stats, Constitution and Resolve are dump stats, and Dexterity and Perception sort of occupy a "well, they're nice to have, but..." range.
Every class wants to do damage, which makes Might attractive - even pure tanks want Might, because the AI takes into consideration the potential incoming damage from a DA when it decides whether or not to chase that juicy, squishy Wizard rather than stick to your chufty, crunchy tank. Might also influences spell intensity, including amount of healing spells do... including a Fighter's Constant Recovery and the Veteran's Recovery talent. Might also increases the very important Fortitude defense, which is used to defend against most hard control effects like Prone, Stun, and Paralyze.
Every class also has skills that have durations (whether buffs or debuffs), and every class can (and usually will) make use of scrolls... which is also affected by your Intelligence score. So every class also wants Intelligence. Oh, Intelligence also increases the AOE of all of these abilities (where applicable) and increases the important Will defense, used to resist dangerous control effects like Charm and Dominate, as well as common debuffs like Frightened.
Paladins want Might and Intelligence to increase the size of their auras, make their Lay on Hands heal for more and last for longer (which also heals more), and to increase the duration of their exhortations. Fighters value Might and Intelligence to increase the throughput and duration of their Constant Recovery, increase the duration of their Knock Down and Vigorous Defense, to increase the AOE and duration of their Clear Out. Wizards want that Might to increase the damage of their spells, Priests want Might to increase the healing of that Consecrated Ground and they want Intelligence to increase its AOE and duration, etc.
By comparison, almost no one wants CON or RES. Now, it's not usually a good idea to take too many points from them (with RES being more important than CON, unless you're ranged), but investing points into them is usually a bad idea. If you're worried about getting interrupted, just chug a potion of spirit shield. The difference between 10 CON and 14 CON in terms of END and HP isn't substantial enough to justify robbing your MIG and INT scores, and you get Fort bonuses from Might anyway. RES gives you an incredibly small boost to Deflection, making it really not worth the investment.
Similarly, Perception gives tiny boosts to ACC and decent boosts to Interrupt... but if you want to interrupt people, just pop a potion of Merciless Gaze to crit more often (because crits always interrupt) or take the Interrupting Blows feat. Dexterity is much more useful, but suffers from diminishing returns to the point that while some DEX is advisable, it's usually better to maximize your INT and MIG instead (for all but a few builds.)
I'm just left with the opinion that people who think Pillars' system is at all better than the D&D systems it was built from (3E and beyond, I don't think anyone will argue that 2E is better than what Pillars does) just don't really know that much about it.
Like virtually everything else in Obsidian games, it's a solid idea but badly balanced/executed. I think with some love and polish, the Pillars system could be pretty great. But as it stands in Pillars 1, it's pretty lousy. Obviously Obsidian agrees, since it sounds like they have some substantial changes on the docket for Deadfire. I'm interesting to see how they apply lessons learned.
This whole post is just ... I feel it's just wrong. There is WAY more wiggle room in Pillars with your "undesired" stats than in most DnD, if we talk strictly stats. If you only think there are two worthwhile stats I pity your lack of imagination. A lot of people had fun with different approaches and different play styles that are possible.
What I can give you is: there is room for improvement, there has to be change. But that doesn't take away from a spark of greatness, when I see it.
I don't see many people claiming Pillars was better. But it's different, it's another take on the core ideas and ideals, another spin, fresh wind. I don't want that cookie cutter DnD stuff in this crowd funded project. And if you want it, I guess you should donate to another cause. I think Pillars would lose a lot of interesting direction that is worth exploring if we just jam it into the "old and known, never change anything, 'cause it's perfect" shoes.
And no, I have 15 years of DnD under my belt. You can leave your assumptions at home, where they belong. You first talk about "you want specialists" and than go into detail of the wisdom fighter. Leave that to the druid then, eh? ^^
Thing is: handle animal? Just boost INT, more beneficial than this "good use of charisma". Why not dump Wisdom? I just take "insert OP prestige class out of extra book Y for 59.99" that has high will saves.
Honestly, dumping stats, even in table top, is so easy with DnD, it isn't even funny.
Edited by Durgarnkuld, 18 April 2017 - 05:51 AM.