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[MECHANICS] The Big "Attack Speed" Conundrum

Mechanics Attack Speed Recovery Base Values

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#121
MaxQuest

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Was kinda lazy to add checks around durganized fists, long pain + shield and such combinations. But finally did it. We have fists now :)
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#122
Boeroer

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Coolio!

#123
peddroelm

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very nice. 

 

Still if you ever find the drive there are still some missing features:

 

Drop down - quick-search filter select of all "weapons" in the game (including summoned/spell equivalents/ shape-shift forms/ ranger pets ) - don't need to add them all at once.  And all the class combat damage relevant perks. This would allow you to calculate single target DPS (all graze/all hits & all crits DPS). 

 

And then of course you need to be able to compare (multiple) different setups and ability to save load-ups and share them easily (load up the different choices in the URL perhaps) ..  

 

This would result in a great off-game character/party planner/builder .. 


Edited by peddroelm, 15 April 2017 - 10:12 PM.


#124
Halfadozensixes

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Hi Maxquest, can you change the speed calculator to allow up to 43 DEX?
I believe wood-elf/godlike ciphers can achieve this with deadfire archipelago (+1), wild leech (+10), food buff (+2), rest bonus (+3), prostitute bonus (+2), viettro's boots (+4), skaen's boon (+1), and effigy's resentment (+1) and wanted to play around with a machine gun build by reducing action by 99% and using an arquebus. It may be worth using other firearms and even a priest with minor avatar or a wizard with martial power instead of wild leech due to diminishing returns of action speed decrease from dexterity (due to ~5 frame inter-action delay). Using your calculator would save me from multiple complex calculations.
Many thanks for your hard work on it so far: it's a fantastic tool.

#125
MaxQuest

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Sure, why not.

Increased max DEX up to 43.

#126
arisboeuf

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How come no1 Made (Based on this Data) an Excel calculator for This? Pretty annoying to do it all by hands. Or Can some1 Share His selfmade?

#127
Halfadozensixes

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How come no1 Made (Based on this Data) an Excel calculator for This? Pretty annoying to do it all by hands. Or Can some1 Share His selfmade?


Maxquest has shared all the speed calculations, so there is nothing stopping you from making an excel spreadsheet if you would like.

#128
Boeroer

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Before complaining, look at MaxQuest's signature!

He made an excellent webapp. Far better than crappy spreadsheets.

Edited by Boeroer, 30 May 2017 - 10:25 PM.


#129
arisboeuf

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first of all sorry im toto stupid to realize it was on the very top of his post lol. too big :)

ok now i can calculate very good the attack speed

so let's say i have 200 frames and 10-20 dmg (average 15); do you count it this way: "my dps is 15/200"?
(you probably see, im a big PoE noob)

 

also do we know anything about enemy DRs?



#130
MaxQuest

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so let's say i have 200 frames and 10-20 dmg (average 15); do you count it this way: "my dps is 15/200"?

Vs 0 DR and assuming that all attacks were resolved as HIT, yes, your auto-attack dps will be 15/200 damage-per-frame, or 450/200 damage-per-second.

Vs higher DR (that is not covered by DR penetration) it's more complicated, as at least 20% of (non-lash) damage will always go through.
For example you hit an enemy with 10DR:
10 -> 2
11 -> 2.2
12 -> 2.4
13 -> 3
14 -> 4
15 -> 5
16 -> 6
17 -> 7
18 -> 8
19 -> 9
20 -> 10

58.6/11 = 5.327

So your average 15 vs 0 DR, becomes 5.327 vs 10 DR.
That's for HITs.
And it becomes more complicated if we start taking misses, grazes and crits into account, their damage modifiers, and also attack quality conversions: graze-to-hit, hit-to-crit and so on.
 

also do we know anything about enemy DRs?

For the main game, there is this table
For expansions through, there is no list I am aware of. Although you can take a look into in-game bestiary; and unlock the entries if need be via console (iroll20s -> UnlockBestiary).

Edited by MaxQuest, 01 June 2017 - 01:31 AM.


#131
drithius

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Just now stumbled upon this thread.  SO INCREDIBLY USEFUL!   Thank you!


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#132
limaxophobiacq

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Anyone know what 'type' of attack speed the speed bonus from Spelltongues attack speed drain is? After looking around on the attack speed calculator I saw I could get quite fast attack speed with Spelltongue + Dragons Maw while still wearing Vambraces and having Vulnerable Attack (in my quest to give up neither defense, burst damage with HoF, or sustained damage), but that's assuming it stacks multiplicatively with Frenzy and Bloodlust like Gauntlets of Swift Action.



#133
MaxQuest

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The Spelltongue bonus is tricky.

When you hit the enemy, you get a Spelltongue Buff, and the target is affected by Spelltongue Debuff.

Spelltongue Buff belongs to AttackSpeedMult category and it stacks with everything. (and yeap, it stacks multiplicatively with Frenzy, Bloodlust and Gauntlets of Swift Action)
Also since it is a buff, it basically affects both weapons (if you dual-wield), and spellcasting speed as well.

There is a problem though, if you durganize your Spelltongue, it will stop applying the Buff completely; and will keep only debuffing the enemy. (see related bug report).

P.S. Atm the workaround is:
- keep Spelltongue non-durganized.
- make few attacks with it
- switch to other weapons

Edited by MaxQuest, 29 July 2017 - 02:13 AM.

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#134
limaxophobiacq

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There is a problem though, if you durganize your Spelltongue, it will stop applying the Buff completely

 

Welp.



#135
AlexKidd

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Many thanks for this handy tool.

 

Now let say I wanted to make the stacking rules even more confusing, and modded a modal aura to reduce the armor penalties (random balance suggestions are also welcome).

 

Based on your knowledge, is it going to stack with Armored Grace/DurganSteel/Pilferer's Grip? I think so but can't really spot the small difference in frames in-game.

 

OtnuuvH.jpg

 

Should I also edit the Armored Grace talent description? It says Recovery Penalty only but Reload is also affected, right?

 

 



#136
MaxQuest

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(random balance suggestions are also welcome)

I've got a few...:
- Allow cipher to cast Pain Block and Going Between on himself
- Allow cipher to cast Amplified Wave on charmed targets
- Mind Wave prone duration was stealhtly nerfed 5s => 3s. Imho it should be 4s.
- Mind Wave visual cone originates from caster. Should be from target.
- Mind Blades is quite weak in practice: early on there is a high chance to miss/graze which will stop it's propagation.

- Make Frenzy instant. It's quite annoying to have to wait for it's animation before using BB/HoF. Not to mention that AI tends to use Frenzy AFTER Barbaric Blow.
- Reduce lvl requirement for rogue's Sap from 11 -> 7 or 9.
- Buff Dirty Fighting: 10% -> 15%. This will increase the extra crit chance from 5% to 7.5%.
- Make Vielo Vidorio speed buff, affect Pallegina as well

- Ranger's Binding Roots: 5 per rest -> 2 per encounter
- Ranger's Thorny Roots: single instance of 15 slash + 15 pierce damage -> 5 slash + 10 pierce per 3s

- Swap damage types on Durance's Staff: crush + burn -> burn + crush
- Hold the Line talent: +1 engagement => +1 engagement and +1 to endurance-to-hp coefficient OR +200 health.
 

Based on your knowledge, is it going to stack with Armored Grace/DurganSteel/Pilferer's Grip? I think so but can't really spot the small difference in frames in-game.

Uhh. This -10% armor speed penalty from ZC will definitely stack with Armored Grace (ofc the finaly penalty still won't go below zero).

As for stacking with DurganizedArmor enchant / Pilferer's Grip it's hard to say. And it's better to test it.
For example:
- take a naked character with 3 DEX
- equip him in durganized hide armor
- give him two sabres/swords/maces/warhammers
- affect him with this modded Zealous Charge aura
- drink DAoM potion, and watch him attacking

If ZC stacks with DurganizedArmor, you will have:
- 5 frames delay -> 38 frames attack -> 0 frames recovery

And if they don't stack:
- 5 frames delay -> 38 frames attack -> 6.3 frames recovery (you will be able to notice a quick line running for 0.2 seconds; if not you can use fraps)
 

Should I also edit the Armored Grace talent description? It says Recovery Penalty only but Reload is also affected, right?

No, Armored Grace does not affect reloading duration in PoE1. It probably will in Deadfire though.

Edited by MaxQuest, 18 September 2017 - 02:39 AM.

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#137
AlexKidd

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Scratch that, I used your tool to check in-game:

 

BVIxPZY.png

 

It stacks, but I am not sure how to interpeter that GetArmorSpeedFactor: Eder in the example is wearing 50% plate, and has -20% Confident Aim



#138
AlexKidd

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Hah you ninja reply, nice timing.

 

- random suggestions: oh my, I meant about zealot charge only :p Good ones though, I still have to mod ciphers but I definitely missed frenzy cd and vielo vidorio not working on Paly (really? damn weird) So far I just made her base duration 6->10s, its existence also made me reconsider the first zealous charge implementation of +%AtkSpeed.

 

I'm going through many edits atm, and hate every moment of my UABE career. We're going to get decent modding tools for PoE2 right? RIGHT?!?

 

- I'm going to use your tool, never toyed with frame checkers.

 

- Ok so Armored Grace doesn't work for reload, but the same property applied to modal does?



#139
MaxQuest

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It stacks, but I am not sure how to interpeter that GetArmorSpeedFactor: Eder in the example is wearing 50% plate, and has -20% Confident Aim

You probably meant Armored Grace)

The default ArmorSpeedFactor is 1.
When you wear plate you get: 1 - 0.5 = 0.5
Taking Armored Grace results in: 1 - 0.5 + 0.2 = 0.7
And with extra -10% armor speed penalty: 1 - 0.5 + 0.2 + 0.1 = 0.8

Later on the game adds (ArmorSpeedFactor - 1) to the recovery coefficient.

P.S. As expected, it stacks with Armored Grace. The question is: will it stack with DurganizedArmor enchant / Pilferer bonus.

 

I'm going through many edits atm, and hate every moment of my UABE career. We're going to get decent modding tools for PoE2 right? RIGHT?!?

I wish... but Josh has mentioned extracting the stats and storing them in xml format, so at least that will be much easier to edit.

I just hope that if there will still be unity3d assets, they will keep them "small" as in PoE1, and won't aggregate as they did in Tyranny.
 

- Ok so Armored Grace doesn't work for reload, but the same property applied to modal does?

No. Armor penalties / penalty reductions do not apply to reloading duration in PoE1.
 

but I definitely missed frenzy cd and vielo vidorio not working on Paly (really? damn weird)

Yeah, Pallegina herself does not benefit from the +20% attack speed buff. Also while I was initially fond of this ability, I've quickly found that it gets suppressed by a lot of things and is useful mostly for party rogues, as they don't have frenzy, time parasite, daom spell.

random suggestions: oh my, I meant about zealot charge only :p

Make it 15% instead of 10% :)

Edited by MaxQuest, 18 September 2017 - 03:02 AM.


#140
Boeroer

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As far as I know armor penalties don't affect reloading, only recovery. So Armored Grace and such can't have any effect here.







Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: Mechanics, Attack Speed, Recovery, Base Values

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