Unplayable

[Zoso der Goldene]

High content scaling will do nothing if there's not a major toning down of characters, he's right in saying some builds just don't care about whatever is in front of them

That's true.

And e.g. for the ascendant to single-shot full focus at the start of combat, you don't even have to multi-class with assassin, but it helps you repeat the trick during combat ... no wait, it WOULD help you if there was any combat left

 

BTW having enemies use these same builds/tactics as proposed above could lead to actual deadlock, or rather, livelock

[lersayil]

I'm all for buffing PotD... but man... please don't touch my cheese.

 

One thing i severely missed in PoE1 is the lack of any real options for cheese. If anything, PoE2 is still a bit low on cheese for my tastes.

 

Challange is good, but not having the option for some bonkers meta-builds kinda drains the fun out of these newer CRPG's.

 

I would prefer if the game threw comparatively large amounts of ridiculous stuff at me, so i'd have to counter it with my own ridiculous min-max builds.

 

For reference, i draw the line at Cloudkilling stuff from off-screen when it comes to cheese overload.

[Eraflure]

 

 

First, you do realize no one is forcing you to min-max right? Problem: The builds are stupidly powerful. Solution: Don't use them. When you take a problem-solution approach to things, you end up being more constructive and less bitchy.

 

 

 

"Don't use it" is never a good solution in game design. If a tool is offered to the player, it either needs to be balanced or clearly labelled as a crutch. Telling someone to ignore a part of what the game has to offer is just admitting defeat balance wise.

Edited May 15, 2018 by Amentep
Removed personal comments

[knownastherat]

 

 

Personally, I am not concerned with overpowered abilities if I am not forced to use them, and multi-classing - the best addition to the game - offers a large number of ways to avoid them. And if I want to use the "broken" mechanics - hello BG2 indeed! - I can compensate by a number of companions for example. That someone min-maxes and abuses overpowered mechanics? Choice - consequence and freedom. Freedom some cannot resist. Freedom that becomes futile.

 

IIRC the devs do not share my view. They were constantly trying to "balance" PoE despite such "balance" most players of PoE could not experience as by the time it was "balanced" most were done with the game already, based on player's feedback and own ideas of what freedom in the game should entitle. So I would not worry.

 

The game is very playable btw.

Edited May 15, 2018 by Amentep
Talk about posts not posters motivations

[dunehunter]

Nerf classes is easy, improve PoTD difficulty is hard.

[Judicator]

 

 

First, you do realize no one is forcing you to min-max right? Problem: The builds are stupidly powerful. Solution: Don't use them. When you take a problem-solution approach to things, you end up being more constructive and less bitchy.

 

 

"Don't use it" is never a good solution in game design. If a tool is offered to the player, it either needs to be balanced or clearly labelled as a crutch. Telling someone to ignore a part of what the game has to offer is just admitting defeat balance wise.

 

No. Just no. This isn't a multiplayer game. Balancing everything isn't needed. Like that guy said if you don't want to use overpowered abilities, then don't. Nobody is forcing you.

[Phyriel]

To OP, dude its isometric rpg. Those games were always imbalanced unless modded to oblivion with ultimate hardcore mods (that with enough dedication you made trivial anyway with some specific class combos). I agree that things are easier to a bigger spectrum of classes than in PoE 1. It seems that PoE 2 took directly opposite approach than in PoE 1, they began with tuning making everything closer to trivial. In PoE 1 after release things were too hard due to broken mechanics and bugs. In time they fixed most bugs mechanics and by doing that opened a way for players to make content trivial because encounters are impossible to balance vs everything that players come up with. 

 

I mean the only way you can make game hard is to tune encounters to such a degree that its barely possible with full party. But then you'll kill off solo play and thats equally ****ty for tons of folks out there. 

[AndreaColombo]

Nerf classes is easy, improve PoTD difficulty is hard.

Nerf classes is unfun; challenging PotD is fun

[Amentep]

Everyone is entitled to post their opinions of the game, pro or con.  What's not allowed is commenting about each other rather than the ideas and opinions being expressed.  This includes (but is not limited to) calling one another stupid, a troll, or an ass, as has happened repeatedly in this thread.  If you want your posts/threads to remain on this forum, refrain from attacking other posters.

[Dorftek]

I disagree, if you don't balance classes and nerf super OP abilities and then you balance POTD around those classes and abilities then all other classes and abilities will become non-viable. Class balance is not only important in MMOs.

[Judicator]

I disagree, if you don't balance classes and nerf super OP abilities and then you balance POTD around those classes and abilities then all other classes and abilities will become non-viable. Class balance is not only important in MMOs.

Most people don't play PotD. Nerfing the classes and abilities to satisfy the 10-15% of people who are going to play PotD makes no sense to me considering the one thing everyone has been almost unanimously prasing is the multiclassing cheese. Better to just focus on making PotD harder, without resorting to unfair scenarios or making the enemies into MMO-style damage sponges.

[nemesis205bw]

According to survey on this forum, actually most people play POTD or veteran. Those who play lower difficulties regret it and reroll on higher difficulty. If POTD is so stupidly easy that I can 2 man party clear 3 skulls areas, then how must other difficulties feel... I didn't even try to make super strong combo, I know there are even more op builds out there. I dumped all other chars and use only watcher single class ascended cipher and mercenary paladin/chanter as someone to use amplified wave on. Still easy, literally 0 challenge. I don't even have to think. If cipher die, my paladin just keep summoning drakes and wins fights because noone can hurt 18 armor dude with 15hp regen aura and lay of hands that give extreme regen plus immortality.

[MadDemiurg]

It's impossible to make challenging PoTD without enemies being MMO damage sponges unless you nerf all the OP stuff when you have abilities than make you virtually immortal or do thousands of damage.

 

Fist Pillars weren't perfect, but they managed to weed out most of the broken stuff eventually. I'd like Pillars 2 to be at least on the same level.

Edited May 15, 2018 by MadDemiurg

[katie]

I sort of like powerful abilities... means I don't have to know the mechanics 100% or I mess something up and gimp my party in the process. Punishment and semi-permanent losses due to learning curve and lack of understanding at the beginning sucks for games that take dozens of hours to thoroughly understand and memorize every formula and ability. It's nice to think about what you want to do, and it works well, mostly, even if you don't immediately understand all of the reasons why at the time you decided it. Redoing a lot of work just sucks. Nobody had this time to waste.

Edited May 15, 2018 by katie

[MadDemiurg]

I sort of like powerful abilities... means I don't have to know the mechanics 100% or I mess something up and gimp my party in the process. Punishment and semi-permanent losses due to learning curve and lack of understanding at the beginning sucks for games that take dozens of hours to thoroughly understand and memorize every formula and ability. It's nice to think about what you want to do, and it works well, mostly, even if you don't immediately understand all of the reasons why.

If you have trouble with mechanics you can just play the easiest difficulty? I think PoE2 introduced even easier difficulty levels compared to PoE1.

[katie]

 

I sort of like powerful abilities... means I don't have to know the mechanics 100% or I mess something up and gimp my party in the process. Punishment and semi-permanent losses due to learning curve and lack of understanding at the beginning sucks for games that take dozens of hours to thoroughly understand and memorize every formula and ability. It's nice to think about what you want to do, and it works well, mostly, even if you don't immediately understand all of the reasons why.

If you have trouble with mechanics you can just play the easiest difficulty? I think PoE2 introduced even easier difficulty levels compared to PoE1.

 

Or you can just leave it as is Who is right and who is wrong? I dunno. Do you? Not really. It's all preference. 

[MadDemiurg]

Well, you have an option to play a difficulty that's fun for you, and you'll still have it.

 

People that understand the mechanics and want a challenge don't.

 

It's pretty clear who's right imo.

Edited May 15, 2018 by MadDemiurg

[Sotnik]

It's impossible to make challenging PoTD without enemies being MMO damage sponges unless you nerf all the OP stuff when you have abilities than make you virtually immortal or do thousands of damage.

 

Fist Pillars weren't perfect, but they managed to weed out most of the broken stuff eventually. I'd like Pillars 2 to be at least on the same level.

Enemy HP can't change anything if you are immortal .

[MadDemiurg]

 

It's impossible to make challenging PoTD without enemies being MMO damage sponges unless you nerf all the OP stuff when you have abilities than make you virtually immortal or do thousands of damage.

 

Fist Pillars weren't perfect, but they managed to weed out most of the broken stuff eventually. I'd like Pillars 2 to be at least on the same level.

Enemy HP can't change anything if you are immortal .

 

Well, in the current state the only way to make it challenging in the lategame is:

 

-Enemies have over 2k hp

-Enemies do over 600 damage per hit

-Enemies spam dispel removing all your status effects

 

 

Which is why nerfing all the broken stuff is the only real option.

Edited May 15, 2018 by MadDemiurg

[katie]

Well, you have an option to play a difficulty that's fun for you, and you'll still have it.

 

People that understand the mechanics and want a challenge don't.

 

It's pretty clear who's right imo.

Just saying it's clear doesn't make it so. You haven't proved anything. There are great games that are super punishing and unfair, and there are great games where you can be godly as hell and steamroll everything. What game design is correct? I dunno - both maybe? You just have a preference with respect to difficult games - that's all. Doesn't mean what you want is right for everyone. It really doesn't. In Diablo 2, you can steamroll everything, and this game is classic and people LOVED this game... so much they still play it today and base every other ARPG on it to this date. Is *that* wrong? No.

Edited May 15, 2018 by katie

[GuyNice]

I sort of like powerful abilities... means I don't have to know the mechanics 100% or I mess something up and gimp my party in the process. Punishment and semi-permanent losses due to learning curve and lack of understanding at the beginning sucks for games that take dozens of hours to thoroughly understand and memorize every formula and ability. It's nice to think about what you want to do, and it works well, mostly, even if you don't immediately understand all of the reasons why at the time you decided it. Redoing a lot of work just sucks. Nobody had this time to waste.

That is perfectly valid but there are different difficulty levels for a reason. The concern about the "OP" abilities is that if/when they rebalance PotD, those abilities are so far ahead in power curve they will still trivialize content. Or on the opposite end, they would have to make content so difficult to provide a challenge with such powerful abilities, that people will consider them a must to progress through the game, thus stifling player choice if they want a good (but surmountable) challenge.

[MadDemiurg]

 

Well, you have an option to play a difficulty that's fun for you, and you'll still have it.

 

People that understand the mechanics and want a challenge don't.

 

It's pretty clear who's right imo.

Just saying it's clear doesn't make it so. You haven't proved anything. There are great games that are super punishing and unfair, and there are great games where you can be godly as hell and steamroll everything. What game design is correct? I dunno - both maybe? You just have a preference with respect to difficult games - that's all. Doesn't mean what you want is right for everyone. It really doesn't. In Diablo 2, you can steamroll everything, and this game is classic and people LOVED this game... so much they still play it today and base every other ARPG on it to this date. Is *that* wrong? No.

 

Diablo had harder difficulties which required you to grind a lot to have a shot at succeeding. Yes, Normal was a steamroll, however not even then not as much as current PoE2 as Blizzard actually cared a lot about balancing and not having broken stuff.

 

What's the point of having difficulties in the first place if they're all "easy"?

 

What I want doesn't make the game "unfun" for casual players as they can still steamroll the game on easy and feel as godly as they want to. But for some reason you seem to think people that enjoy these games in a different way don't have the right to do so.

Edited May 15, 2018 by MadDemiurg

[katie]

 

 

Well, you have an option to play a difficulty that's fun for you, and you'll still have it.

 

People that understand the mechanics and want a challenge don't.

 

It's pretty clear who's right imo.

Just saying it's clear doesn't make it so. You haven't proved anything. There are great games that are super punishing and unfair, and there are great games where you can be godly as hell and steamroll everything. What game design is correct? I dunno - both maybe? You just have a preference with respect to difficult games - that's all. Doesn't mean what you want is right for everyone. It really doesn't. In Diablo 2, you can steamroll everything, and this game is classic and people LOVED this game... so much they still play it today and base every other ARPG on it to this date. Is *that* wrong? No.

 

Diablo had harder difficulties which required you to grind a lot to have a shot at succeeding. Yes, Normal was a steamroll, however not even then not as much as current PoE2 as Blizzard actually cared a lot about balancing and not having broken stuff.

 

What's the point of having difficulties in the first place if they're all "easy"?

 

What I want doesn't make the game "unfun" for casual players as they can still steamroll the game on easy and feel as godly as they want to. But for some reason you seem to think people that enjoy these games in a different way don't have the right to do so.

 

<3 I hope you feel better.

 

PS: Diablo 2 at Hell difficulty wasn't that hard.

[MadDemiurg]

Diablo had a different concept of difficulty as you needed to get level appropriate gear to advance and then it became easy. And I'm feeling fine, thanks.

[knownastherat]

What is the point of difficulties? Indeed, a very good question.

 

Ability to balance an environment derives from the level of control over such environment. If, for example, is possible to know what kind of maximum damage and HP player has available during a particular encounter, it's relatively easy to "balance" such encounter, at least for certain level of difficulty. To control all variables in PoE is quite complex simply due to the complexity of the game. 

 

PoE difficulty primarily comes from knowledge, unlike hand-eye coordination in Dark Souls for example. Knowledge of game mechanics, item locations, quests, synergies, etc. Essentially, as it was mentioned, developers try to "balance" the game against players knowledge in evolving manner.  I have heard several people saying they gave up on PoE because it was "too hard", which only means they lacked the knowledge needed, and will to gain it, the level of knowledge assumed by developers. If one wanted to make the game more accessible to a greater variety of players, the best shot at doing this without dumbing the complexity (Dragon Age anyone?) would be to allow for powerful and fun stuff players can do in the game.

 

To complain that the game is too easy when one uses a fully optimized party, starting bonuses, best items, .. reload, is to be saying: This is not Dark Souls! No, it is not. This game is actually a role-playing game. 

 

Baldur's Gate 2 .. EZ

Really? Beat it solo with melee Druid.

But I want to play in a party!

No, you want to lower difficulty.

Edited May 15, 2018 by knownastherat