Boeroer 14,970 Posted May 7, 2018 Share Posted May 7, 2018 Backstab works in a way that it favours heavy hitting attacks. Only the first attack roll out of stealth or invisib. will receive the bonus from Backstab (and Assassinate). That means that a full attack ability will only backstab/assassinate with the first strike. A blunderbuss is especially bad since only the first pellet will backstab/assassinate. Maybe Obsidian wants to put in a timer or so. A short time window after the first attack roll where you can still backstab. At the moment it favours single attacks with high base damage. 1 Quote Deadfire Community Patch: Nexus Mods Link to post Share on other sites
Boeroer 14,970 Posted May 7, 2018 Share Posted May 7, 2018 (edited) its 30% read just above this post Ok, then it is as I remembered. Thanks. Edited May 7, 2018 by Boeroer Quote Deadfire Community Patch: Nexus Mods Link to post Share on other sites
Boeroer 14,970 Posted May 7, 2018 Share Posted May 7, 2018 Did anybody check if Sneak Attack or even FoD and so on now scale with PL in the stream? Quote Deadfire Community Patch: Nexus Mods Link to post Share on other sites
dunehunter 1,173 Posted May 7, 2018 Share Posted May 7, 2018 DnD 3.0 has a good example for solving these problems. Rogue's sneak attack scale with level. Paladin Smite evil scales with level. Or am i missing something here? I thought this is a perfect solution unless someone can point out the drawback of d&d way. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Boeroer 14,970 Posted May 7, 2018 Share Posted May 7, 2018 (edited) There is none. Unless you balance a class in a way that you have to frontload it because you can't come up with some good high level abilities... Edited May 7, 2018 by Boeroer Quote Deadfire Community Patch: Nexus Mods Link to post Share on other sites
master guardian 106 Posted May 7, 2018 Author Share Posted May 7, 2018 Backstab works in a way that it favours heavy hitting attacks. Only the first attack roll out of stealth or invisib. will receive the bonus from Backstab (and Assassinate). That means that a full attack ability will only backstab/assassinate with the first strike. A blunderbuss is especially bad since only the first pellet will backstab/assassinate. Maybe Obsidian wants to put in a timer or so. A short time window after the first attack roll where you can still backstab. At the moment it favours single attacks with high base damage. great info as allways thanks!!!! im now considering playing a multi class assassin/ something two handed style!!! now to check what synergises Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Boeroer 14,970 Posted May 7, 2018 Share Posted May 7, 2018 (edited) Everything that gives you multiplicative dmg bonuses is great for Assassin/whatever. That would be high MIG (e.g. Helwalker) and lashes basically (Priest of Berath, Bleak Walker, any monk with Lightning Strikes). I don't know if shifting breaks stealth, but if not then Fury with Wildstrike would also be a candidate. Remember that assassination (not Backstab) works from range and with spells and can be Devastating. So even Assassin/Nuker can be good - you don't need Backstab then. Also all abilities which scale damage with Power Level are great because it's also multiplicative. Look out for abilities/weapons with direct damage (no DoTs because the ticks break invisibility and don't work with assassination) that have high base damage and/or lashes. Edited May 7, 2018 by Boeroer Quote Deadfire Community Patch: Nexus Mods Link to post Share on other sites
master guardian 106 Posted May 7, 2018 Author Share Posted May 7, 2018 (edited) Everything that gives you multiplicative dmg bonuses is great for Assassin/whatever. That would be high MIG (e.g. Helwalker) and lashes basically (Priest of Berath, Bleak Walker, any monk with Lightning Strikes). I don't know if shifting breaks stealth, but if not then Fury with Wildstrike would also be a candidate. Remember that assassination (not Backstab) works from range and with spells and can be Devastating. So even Assassin/Nuker can be good - you don't need Backstab then. Also all abilities which scale damage with Power Level are great because it's also multiplicative. Look out for abilities/weapons with direct damage (no DoTs because the ticks break invisibility and don't work with assassination) that have high base damage and/or lashes. does the ciphers biting whip scale with it? biting whip got nerfed to 30% btw also can you enter stealth in combat?? The problem with backstab is that once you come out of stealth/ invis and backstab you a pretty exposed im looking at another class to make the rogue sturdier maybe. fighter perhaps wizard looks like it would dual really well with assasin becuse of all the good self defense spells Edited May 7, 2018 by master guardian Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Yosharian 757 Posted May 7, 2018 Share Posted May 7, 2018 Man, might as well remove rogue from the game!! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Boeroer 14,970 Posted May 7, 2018 Share Posted May 7, 2018 (edited) Cipher's whip does stack, yes. But it's only additive so you won't see much of a difference when backstabbing/assassinating. For auto-attacks it fine though. If you want 0 recovery after Backstab you can use an arquebus: with the modal you'll do a crit most of the time AND guns have no recovery but only reload. That means that you can immedialtey vanish into invisibility (Smoke Cloud) after your backstab/assassination. The lvl-9 ability would make sure you become invisible right after an attack - but that's not for multiclass. Something similar could be achieved by Blood Thirst (barb). But PL 7 - so pretty late as well. If you want great backstabs/assassinations as well as more sturdyness I would say that Bleak Walker is your best mate. Makes the rogue a lot sturdier and adds some nice lashes for the backstabs/assassinations. Devoted only gives you more crit damage which is not multiplicative. And you'll have plenty of bonus PEN when assassinating. Watch out with Deep Wounds! While it is a great passive it currently breaks invisibility when ticking (so stupid). I guess they will fix that if it's not already fixed in the final game. Edited May 7, 2018 by Boeroer 2 Quote Deadfire Community Patch: Nexus Mods Link to post Share on other sites
master guardian 106 Posted May 7, 2018 Author Share Posted May 7, 2018 (edited) Cipher's whip does stack, yes. But it's only additive so you won't see much of a difference when backstabbing/assassinating. For auto-attacks it fine though. If you want 0 recovery after Backstab you can use an arquebus: with the modal you'll do a crit most of the time AND guns have no recovery but only reload. That means that you can immedialtey vanish into invisibility (Smoke Cloud) after your backstab/assassination. The lvl-9 ability would make sure you become invisible right after an attack - but that's not for multiclass. Something similar could be achieved by Blood Thirst (barb). But PL 7 - so pretty late as well. If you want great backstabs/assassinations as well as more sturdyness I would say that Bleak Walker is your best mate. Makes the rogue a lot sturdier and adds some nice lashes for the backstabs/assassinations. Devoted only gives you more crit damage which is not multiplicative. And you'll have plenty of bonus PEN when assassinating. Watch out with Deep Wounds! While it is a great passive it currently breaks invisibility when ticking (so stupid). I guess they will fix that if it's not already fixed in the final game. Im leaning towards Assasin/ Wizard The self buffs will work really well with a rogue eg martial power ect.............. an assasin/ wizard will also be able to backstab and then straight away put up a defensive spell and what is a bleak walker i cant find it on beta Edited May 7, 2018 by master guardian Quote Link to post Share on other sites
z_liquid 36 Posted May 7, 2018 Share Posted May 7, 2018 If you want 0 recovery after Backstab you can use an arquebus: with the modal you'll do a crit most of the time AND guns have no recovery but only reload. That means that you can immedialtey vanish into invisibility (Smoke Cloud) after your backstab/assassination. Won't blunted criticals nullify the bonus from critting, so you're only getting extra pen? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DigitalDemon 3 Posted May 7, 2018 Share Posted May 7, 2018 So as far as I understand, a dual-wielding Assassin (whether single- or multi-classed) doesn't make much sense in the current build of the game because only the first attack will receive the bonuses when coming out of stealth? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
master guardian 106 Posted May 7, 2018 Author Share Posted May 7, 2018 So as far as I understand, a dual-wielding Assassin (whether single- or multi-classed) doesn't make much sense in the current build of the game because only the first attack will receive the bonuses when coming out of stealth? yep 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
CottonWolf 327 Posted May 7, 2018 Share Posted May 7, 2018 Man, might as well remove rogue from the game!! Secret right answer. There are too many martial classes. Rogue should just be something you can build a fighter into. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Lamppost in Winter 377 Posted May 7, 2018 Share Posted May 7, 2018 I'm hoping this just means they finally implemented Power Level scaling for Sneak Attack and other passives. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Aramintai 1,881 Posted May 7, 2018 Share Posted May 7, 2018 Well, this thread is just sad. And playing a single class rogue will be sad. I'll skip a single class rogue playthrough until devs stop throwing nerfs everywhere and start actually balancing classes. For now, multiclass it is. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JerekKruger 3,526 Posted May 7, 2018 Share Posted May 7, 2018 DnD 3.0 has a good example for solving these problems. Rogue's sneak attack scale with level. Paladin Smite evil scales with level. Or am i missing something here? I thought this is a perfect solution unless someone can point out the drawback of d&d way. The way it's done in D&D 3.0? There isn't one that I can spot. However Obsidian seem wedded to percentage damage bonuses and for those scaling is much more likely to lead to problems. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Riftis 23 Posted May 7, 2018 Share Posted May 7, 2018 I'm actually okay with this nerf, despite wanting to play a mindstalker (cipher/rogue). I think it should have been down to 30% rather than 20% but 50% was too much when you take multiclassing into account. Whenever I was thinking about multiclassing I always had it in my head that I could combine X with rogue and get 50% bonus damage. I should mention, even with this nerf beguiler cipher + rogue still gets 50% sneak attack damage when you take biting whip at power level 2 (and 40% before), so it seems like mindstalker is the class to be if you wanna focus on sneak attack damage. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JerekKruger 3,526 Posted May 7, 2018 Share Posted May 7, 2018 I think it should have been down to 30% rather than 20% but 50% was too much when you take multiclassing into account. Good news: 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Riftis 23 Posted May 7, 2018 Share Posted May 7, 2018 I think it should have been down to 30% rather than 20% but 50% was too much when you take multiclassing into account. Good news: You heard it here folks, my balancing senses are impeccable. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
master guardian 106 Posted May 7, 2018 Author Share Posted May 7, 2018 (edited) I'm actually okay with this nerf, despite wanting to play a mindstalker (cipher/rogue). I think it should have been down to 30% rather than 20% but 50% was too much when you take multiclassing into account. Whenever I was thinking about multiclassing I always had it in my head that I could combine X with rogue and get 50% bonus damage. I should mention, even with this nerf beguiler cipher + rogue still gets 50% sneak attack damage when you take biting whip at power level 2 (and 40% before), so it seems like mindstalker is the class to be if you wanna focus on sneak attack damage. biting whip is 30% additive damage to the base roll (it got nerfed from 40%) Sneak attacks is extra 30% on top of all the damage eg two handed style, lashes ect so sneak is far more powerful Edited May 7, 2018 by master guardian Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GuyNice 72 Posted May 7, 2018 Share Posted May 7, 2018 I'm actually okay with this nerf, despite wanting to play a mindstalker (cipher/rogue). I think it should have been down to 30% rather than 20% but 50% was too much when you take multiclassing into account. Whenever I was thinking about multiclassing I always had it in my head that I could combine X with rogue and get 50% bonus damage. I should mention, even with this nerf beguiler cipher + rogue still gets 50% sneak attack damage when you take biting whip at power level 2 (and 40% before), so it seems like mindstalker is the class to be if you wanna focus on sneak attack damage. biting whip is 30% additive damage to the base roll (it got nerfed from 40%) Sneak attacks is extra 30% on top of all the damage eg two handed style, lashes ect so sneak is far more powerful Where are you getting this? I was under the impression that Sneak Attack has always been an additive bonus. IIRC only Might and lashes are multiplicative bonuses in Deadfire. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
master guardian 106 Posted May 7, 2018 Author Share Posted May 7, 2018 (edited) sorry i just checked i was wrong I also checked what assinate does +4 penetration + 25 accurecy + 50 crit damage pretty good. Edited May 7, 2018 by master guardian Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Riftis 23 Posted May 7, 2018 Share Posted May 7, 2018 biting whip is 30% additive damage to the base roll (it got nerfed from 40%) Sneak attacks is extra 30% on top of all the damage eg two handed style, lashes ect so sneak is far more powerful Where are you getting this? I was under the impression that Sneak Attack has always been an additive bonus. IIRC only Might and lashes are multiplicative bonuses in Deadfire. Either way, Mindstalker is the multiclass to take if you wanna stack sneak attack damage. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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