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Thread for those of us who want to roll a single or multi rogue....lets talk

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Yeah, interrupt is silly good in this game vs PoE1. Enemy casters can be a pain. It actually shuts the cast down, and removes the resource from the caster. Rogues have a 1 guile teleport and a 1 guile interrupt with an added bonus of hobbling. Then they get bonus damage on attacks for 15 secs.

 

Dont have the game in front of me, but Monks are the only class nearly as good as rogues at interrupt. They have a few abilities that interrupt on hit iirc. I cant remember if it is still the case in beta 4.

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It seems like Obsidian is pushing rogues into one-size-fits-all backstabbing mold. I had planned a non-backstabbing Swashbuckler but since they nerfed Disciplined Strikes and Sneak Attack I will have to adapt him into more of a backstabbing build, otherwise he just wont be causing much damage. Sad because that wasn't how I thought of the character at all.

You won't know exact damage numbers until you start playing the game, mate. Try the game before you give up on your character, at the very least.

I haven't given up on it, I'm thinking through adjustments. This is a big change with a number of implications. For instance, I was planning to use a fast, accurate weapon, but now it looks like backstabbing is king and good backstabbing wants high base damage. Without the additional accuracy from the weapon I have to think about raising perception, etc.

Have you considered using a ranged weapon (The backstab passive also works with them if you’re close enough) with high base damage and switching wep sets once the fight starts. Or perhaps you can just ignore that passive like me and deal the majority of your damage another way. I plan to make a rogue/ranger (scout) and use the many damage DoTs to cause a lot of raw damage. That’s one extra perk I can use toward a less risky perk imo.

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this is fckd

 

 

the way i see it im forced into doing a single class rogue build built like this:

 

- take all the invis abilities eg, shadow, escape, clouds

- backstab ability to utilize above invis abilities

- must use two handed style instead of dual wield because of backstab

- Deathblows works but got nerfed to 50% instead of 100%

 

im not really seeing any other viable builds that can compare to other classes in terms of power

 

and is backstab better with Two handed instead of dual wield becasue only one of the dual weild weapons will apply it or because of the way they scale the damage?

 

 

Keep in mind that many of the active attacks like Crippling Strike are full attacks, which is still great for dual-wielders. 

Edited by Mack
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Rogues in POE1 had alot of full attacks that did the excact same thing. So we basically have a greatly nerfed rogue from POE1. 

 

I had a look at a rogues high level abilites on the Early access. They are a complete frickin joke. eg only one level 9 ability and all it does is allow you to make a single attack then go instantly invis for 5 seconds.............really.............really.......that is so crap for there highest level ability its not funny

 

Im not really a fan of the rogues ability attacks because all casters can do far and away better then this

Edited by master guardian
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Yeah, interrupt is silly good in this game vs PoE1. Enemy casters can be a pain. It actually shuts the cast down, and removes the resource from the caster. Rogues have a 1 guile teleport and a 1 guile interrupt with an added bonus of hobbling. Then they get bonus damage on attacks for 15 secs.

 

Dont have the game in front of me, but Monks are the only class nearly as good as rogues at interrupt. They have a few abilities that interrupt on hit iirc. I cant remember if it is still the case in beta 4.

 

Well, Barbarians always interrupt on crit with the tier 5 passive. Wizards have Thrust of Tattered Veils... etc etc.

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It seems like Obsidian is pushing rogues into one-size-fits-all backstabbing mold. I had planned a non-backstabbing Swashbuckler but since they nerfed Disciplined Strikes and Sneak Attack I will have to adapt him into more of a backstabbing build, otherwise he just wont be causing much damage. Sad because that wasn't how I thought of the character at all.

You won't know exact damage numbers until you start playing the game, mate. Try the game before you give up on your character, at the very least.

I haven't given up on it, I'm thinking through adjustments. This is a big change with a number of implications. For instance, I was planning to use a fast, accurate weapon, but now it looks like backstabbing is king and good backstabbing wants high base damage. Without the additional accuracy from the weapon I have to think about raising perception, etc.

Have you considered using a ranged weapon (The backstab passive also works with them if you’re close enough) with high base damage and switching wep sets once the fight starts. Or perhaps you can just ignore that passive like me and deal the majority of your damage another way. I plan to make a rogue/ranger (scout) and use the many damage DoTs to cause a lot of raw damage. That’s one extra perk I can use toward a less risky perk imo.

 

 

Weapon switching is out because I'm dead set on multi-classing with Devoted. My original plan was, a bit like you, to ignore backstabbing, and get my dps from frequent crits, sneak attacks, and DoTs like deep wounds. Like I said earlier though the nerf to disciplined strikes and now sneak attack puts a massive dent in that approach. I think at the very least I need to invest in backstab and shadowing beyond, and also seriously think about taking the Assassin subclass.

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@master guardian:

You already seem to have made up your mind which is a bit sad :/

 

In your original post you said you are open to multiclass a rogue, which considering everything you should really give a try.

Edited by Kirschkern
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May still depend on what items are available. For example, if there's a Rogue-only stiletto that boosts Sneak Attack, etc. 

 

Maybe they've tried to counterbalance the mechanics that favor two-handed backstab by giving some "Rogue weapons" bonuses with Rogue abilities?...

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It seems like Obsidian is pushing rogues into one-size-fits-all backstabbing mold. I had planned a non-backstabbing Swashbuckler but since they nerfed Disciplined Strikes and Sneak Attack I will have to adapt him into more of a backstabbing build, otherwise he just wont be causing much damage. Sad because that wasn't how I thought of the character at all.

You won't know exact damage numbers until you start playing the game, mate. Try the game before you give up on your character, at the very least.

I haven't given up on it, I'm thinking through adjustments. This is a big change with a number of implications. For instance, I was planning to use a fast, accurate weapon, but now it looks like backstabbing is king and good backstabbing wants high base damage. Without the additional accuracy from the weapon I have to think about raising perception, etc.

Have you considered using a ranged weapon (The backstab passive also works with them if you’re close enough) with high base damage and switching wep sets once the fight starts. Or perhaps you can just ignore that passive like me and deal the majority of your damage another way. I plan to make a rogue/ranger (scout) and use the many damage DoTs to cause a lot of raw damage. That’s one extra perk I can use toward a less risky perk imo.

 

 

Weapon switching is out because I'm dead set on multi-classing with Devoted. My original plan was, a bit like you, to ignore backstabbing, and get my dps from frequent crits, sneak attacks, and DoTs like deep wounds. Like I said earlier though the nerf to disciplined strikes and now sneak attack puts a massive dent in that approach. I think at the very least I need to invest in backstab and shadowing beyond, and also seriously think about taking the Assassin subclass.

 

Ah, okay then. Wish you luck in your endeavors then. Hope you find that perfect class/subclass for you.

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Yeah, interrupt is silly good in this game vs PoE1. Enemy casters can be a pain. It actually shuts the cast down, and removes the resource from the caster. Rogues have a 1 guile teleport and a 1 guile interrupt with an added bonus of hobbling. Then they get bonus damage on attacks for 15 secs.

 

Dont have the game in front of me, but Monks are the only class nearly as good as rogues at interrupt. They have a few abilities that interrupt on hit iirc. I cant remember if it is still the case in beta 4.

Well, Barbarians always interrupt on crit with the tier 5 passive. Wizards have Thrust of Tattered Veils... etc etc.

Barbarian Tier 5 is on crit. It isn't reliable, nor is it on demand via a 1 guile ability. It "may" interrupt if you get lucky. A rogue "will" interrupt if you pay attention. Big difference. Especially on higher difficulties where critting isnt reliable.

 

Wizards have Thrust, but only 2 an encounter, and you may not have it in your spell book. Every rogue should have crippling strike just because of its guile cost. Same with Escape.

 

Rogues will have more guile than a Wizard will have level one spells, it's reliable, it is dirt cheap to use, you can shut a caster down for a while. Even if monks can interrupt... Their wounds arent nearly as reliable as a rogue's guile.

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@master guardian:

You already seem to have made up your mind which is a bit sad :/

 

In your original post you said you are open to multiclass a rogue, which considering everything you should really give a try.

i havent made my mind up im trying very hard to make a single class rogue work but they just arent stacking up to other classes 

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@master guardian:

You already seem to have made up your mind which is a bit sad :/

 

In your original post you said you are open to multiclass a rogue, which considering everything you should really give a try.

i havent made my mind up im trying very hard to make a single class rogue work but they just arent stacking up to other classes 

 

 

Even if you don't love the rogue high level abilities, a single class is still going to have access to level 4-7 abilities a lot faster and more of them as well. May not be enough to sway you, but its definitely worth keeping in mind that you'll have those abilities for a much larger portion of the game, when comparing single vs multi class.

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@master guardian:

You already seem to have made up your mind which is a bit sad :/

 

In your original post you said you are open to multiclass a rogue, which considering everything you should really give a try.

i havent made my mind up im trying very hard to make a single class rogue work but they just arent stacking up to other classes 

 

 

Even if you don't love the rogue high level abilities, a single class is still going to have access to level 4-7 abilities a lot faster and more of them as well. May not be enough to sway you, but its definitely worth keeping in mind that you'll have those abilities for a much larger portion of the game, when comparing single vs multi class.

 

 

These power lvl 4-7 abilities actually not so appealing as well. You already got bunch of 'Strike' type abilities from pwr lvl 1-3, the only cool thing later is deathblow. All the rest is just more and more active abilities u can pick from. It feels reductant and duplicated to me, and of course the pool is limited. You can pick 100 different strike ability, but you might only use 1~2 type of them, all rest is wasted.

 

In compare, let's say monk, gain a cool modal Turning Wheel that boost his damage at pwr lvl 6? Got a Teleport and hit kind ability Palegallent path. Got a summon duplicate ability. Much more versatile, more interesting.

Edited by dunehunter
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@master guardian:

You already seem to have made up your mind which is a bit sad :/

 

In your original post you said you are open to multiclass a rogue, which considering everything you should really give a try.

keep in mind, this thread is pretty much spam

 

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/96769-rogues-do-not-suck/?p=1994317

 

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/96769-rogues-do-not-suck/?p=1994492

 

is acting as if old info is new and ignoring discussion from recent past.

 

*shrug*

 

seems as if mg is trying hard to make a point as 'posed to asking a question.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps (edit) added an extra link

Edited by Gromnir
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"Those who won our independence by revolution were not cowards. They did not fear political change. They did not exalt order at the cost of liberty. To courageous, self-reliant men, with confidence in the power of free and fearless reasoning applied through the processes of popular government, no danger flowing from speech can be deemed clear and present, unless the incidence of the evil apprehended is so imminent that it may befall before there is opportunity for full discussion. If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."--Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

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@master guardian:

You already seem to have made up your mind which is a bit sad :/

 

In your original post you said you are open to multiclass a rogue, which considering everything you should really give a try.

i havent made my mind up im trying very hard to make a single class rogue work but they just arent stacking up to other classes 

 

 

Even if you don't love the rogue high level abilities, a single class is still going to have access to level 4-7 abilities a lot faster and more of them as well. May not be enough to sway you, but its definitely worth keeping in mind that you'll have those abilities for a much larger portion of the game, when comparing single vs multi class.

 

 

These power lvl 4-7 abilities actually not so appealing as well. You already got bunch of 'Strike' type abilities from pwr lvl 1-3, the only cool thing later is deathblow. All the rest is just more and more active abilities u can pick from. It feels reductant and duplicated to me, and of course the pool is limited. You can pick 100 different strike ability, but you might only use 1~2 type of them, all rest is wasted.

 

In compare, let's say monk, gain a cool modal Turning Wheel that boost his damage at pwr lvl 6? Got a Teleport and hit kind ability Palegallent path. Got a summon duplicate ability. Much more versatile, more interesting.

 

yeah man i couldnt agree more. 

 

you nailed it on the head

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hang on i just opened up the BETA version 4 and sneak attack is at 50%?

 

why are people saying it got reduced to 20% ?

 

anyone know??

 

on the Early access the guy used the trickster subclass so i cant see on his youtube vids what it is for game release

Edited by master guardian

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compare to monk is a bit misleading seeing as how monk is superior to most other classes.  can do same with monk compared to priest and paladin and even barbarian and find all other classes mentioned wanting from talent tiers 5-9.  am not certain why certain folks insist on this kinda thing--compare using admitted op as the benchmark.  is making argument weaker and not better.

 

is worth noting, again, Gromnir actual bothered testing rogues through actual gameplay in beta 4... and not just one-off battles with the skulking terror, or level'd-up-to-level-9 nonsense.  

 

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/96769-rogues-do-not-suck/?p=1994684

 

up to tier 7, the rogue is having excellent options, and tier 8 looks good if ridiculous limited.  tier 9 for rogue is embarrassing.  even so, while we agree post release monks is gonna need nerf bat swings as the pre-release paladin received, the rogue looks to be at least as strong as it were in the beta... back when people just kinda assumed it must be as bad as the poe rogue.

 

but again, the rogue tree needs more and better options, particular at tier 9, but also at lower branches.  as is, every single class rogue is could look extreme similar save for whether one chooses one-handed, two-handed or dual... and given paucity o' options, why not choose two styles, eh?

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited by Gromnir

"Those who won our independence by revolution were not cowards. They did not fear political change. They did not exalt order at the cost of liberty. To courageous, self-reliant men, with confidence in the power of free and fearless reasoning applied through the processes of popular government, no danger flowing from speech can be deemed clear and present, unless the incidence of the evil apprehended is so imminent that it may befall before there is opportunity for full discussion. If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."--Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

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anyone know why people are saying on other threads sneak attack is 20%?

 

on beta 4 it is still at 50%

 

?

Early access streams. 

 

witch early access stream ??

 

I watched coohhcarnages one and he looked at the trickster subclass only. It has 10% sneak attack damage becasue of its subclass

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You can't compare numbers directly from last to this one. Different game, different balance.

 

In addition to the known Sneak Attack and Deathblow damage% increases, last I heard Deep Wounds stacks with itself. Now that it is a % of damage, it's like a lash that's always on as well. While the description mentions weapon damage, I'm interested to see if it still works with physical damage scrolls like in the first game. Rogues also have access to Deep Pockets for additional consumable slots.

 

Might also now multiplies your weapon% multipliers, which benefits Rogues more than any other weapon class.

 

While you mention the reduction in base Accuracy, Rogue's deficiencies in defenses has been brought up to par.

 

I guess I play the class differently - I'm excited to try Streetfighter out, starting off encounters defensively, helping to control the battlefield, using movement abilities to get where I need to, meeting the condition, then start to burst. Maybe it will work, maybe it won't, but it looks like fun!

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anyone know why people are saying on other threads sneak attack is 20%?

 

on beta 4 it is still at 50%

 

?

Early access streams. 

 

witch early access stream ??

 

I watched coohhcarnages one and he looked at the trickster subclass only. It has 10% sneak attack damage becasue of its subclass

 

I don't know which one exactly, but other people have been given early access codes to the game IIRC. People have probably seen it in their streams.

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anyone know why people are saying on other threads sneak attack is 20%?

 

on beta 4 it is still at 50%

 

?

Early access streams.

witch early access stream ??

 

I watched coohhcarnages one and he looked at the trickster subclass only. It has 10% sneak attack damage becasue of its subclass

It is 20% in beta 4 for trickster. Regular SA is now 20% from 50% (?) in beta 4, and trickster is down to 10% from 20%.

I think these are the numbers. Dont quote me.

 

It sucks. The class was already weak from its mid-high level talent tree, but now I dont know...

 

I'd only MC it right now for interrupts and mobility.

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anyone know why people are saying on other threads sneak attack is 20%?

 

on beta 4 it is still at 50%

 

?

Early access streams.
witch early access stream ??

 

I watched coohhcarnages one and he looked at the trickster subclass only. It has 10% sneak attack damage becasue of its subclass

It is 20% in beta 4 for trickster. Regular SA is now 20% from 50% (?) in beta 4, and trickster is down to 10% from 20%.

I think these are the numbers. Dont quote me.

 

It sucks. The class was already weak from its mid-high level talent tree, but now I dont know...

 

I'd only MC it right now for interrupts and mobility.

 

I have BETA 4 open right now and sneak attack is at 50%

 

Can anyone confrim if it has been reduced for the release version of the game?

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compare to monk is a bit misleading seeing as how monk is superior to most other classes.  can do same with monk compared to priest and paladin and even barbarian and find all other classes mentioned wanting from talent tiers 5-9.  am not certain why certain folks insist on this kinda thing--compare using admitted op as the benchmark.  is making argument weaker and not better.

 

Comparing monk and rogue is reliable to me because both of them are strikers, i wouldn't compare a monk with priest in this way, it make no sense. But I'd compare a chanter with a priest.

Also because comparing one high level class tree with another is the most direct way to understand how good they are, since we haven't got the game yet.

 

I played both a monk and a rogue in beta, many many times, I feel monk is better overall. Rogue is ok in a team, not good when solo unless u go stealth and backstab, Monk is both ok when solo and in a team. Rogue can do good single target CC, locked down one enemy because blind currently just stop recovery time from recovering (bug?). DoT of Rogue is good, but it still kill slower than Monk, might change if we get access to better weapons because fist is better than weapons now.

 

An we dunno about mid~late game since we only access to lvl 9 in beta, I agree it would be better when the game is released then discuss their performance. On paper I feel rogue is inferior, that's my opinion but i could be wrong.

 

Edit: Also @Gromnir u said in your playthrough rogue is good, but have u ever played both rogue and monk and compare their performance? I can say any class is good in beta if I don't compare each of them, judging class without comparison seems not so convincing.

Edited by dunehunter

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