[POTD Difficulty] Launch NOT tuned discussion thread

[Ganrich]

I think that PotD, as much as many of us hardcores enjoy a challenge, should take second fiddle to bugs.  So, no, if the majority of the game breaking bugs were dealt with by the delay I think it is ok to release with PotD a little on the easy side to start, and I have similar sentiments to balance issues as well.  Most the audience will be on Normal and Story mode.  I usually do my first playthrough on the 2nd hardest difficulty to enjoy some challenge, but to also be expedient in getting through my first run.  Also, since the triple crown achievements aren't in game yet it is ok too.  That's because they can tune PotD in order to ensure maximum pain on those that want to achieve it before adding that feature. 

[Luagha]

ananthanielh: If you switched lower difficulties, areas you hadn't entered yet had their group sizes adjusted accordingly.

When you use cheat codes (or IEMod) to change to and from POTD, group sizes adjust in areas you haven't visited (just like before) but also the stats of everything are adjusted on the fly... the stat changes are applied instantly to things on the same map as you.

I recall experimenting with that on Gramrfel. Toggling POTD toggled the expected 15 on their defences.

So that technical explanation does not make sense for the restriction. That it was a choice they made does (and then "achievements" is the only rational explanation for the choice)

Edited May 5, 2018 by Luagha

[Luagha]

CohhCarnage's stream clearly showed the text about not being able to change this option ingame, and Sawyer has a super recent tweet about how they're too busy bugfixing to consider balancing that difficulty until post launch but that he does hope to have a better look at it in patch #2.

Not an answer i'm happy about (It's hard to imagine enjoying the gameplay if it's repeating a decision that prevented me enjoying the original), but a clear answer. Sorry for wasting yer time.

Edit: The tweet in question, for reference.
https://twitter.com/jesawyer/status/992552266841411584

Edited May 5, 2018 by Luagha

[omgFIREBALLS]

It's still unfinished, even if the majority don't care much/urgently about what's left out. I'm used to release dates that aren't postponed and that bring a finished product. You can say all you want about priorities, and I'll probably agree, but these priorities should result in a realistic release date at which we get a complete game. Of course it will be one where the sheer volume of players results in more bugs and imbalances coming to light, but when PotD is apparently more like Leisurely Stroll of the Supposedly Damned, yeah.

 

For me it's two disappointments in a row.

[Infinitron]

https://jesawyer.tumblr.com/post/173590363081/cohcarnage-didnt-reload-on-potddid-you-tuned-down

 

 

Cohcarnage didnt reload on potd.Did you tuned down the difficulty?

 

We didn’t tune down the gameplay effects of Path of the Damned, but I do think that sections of the critical path on PotD are not as challenging because the encounters aren’t as large and varied as they should be.

 

I take responsibility for it.  I didn’t want to prioritize PotD tuning over bugfixing because I think it’s preferable to have fewer bugs and easier PotD combat at launch than the opposite.  That said, there are side areas that are quite challenging on Veteran and PotD and there are sections of the critical path that are also challenging on those difficulties.  It’s just not consistent.

 

I’ve written up bugs for key areas that I think need to beefed up for an early patch.  They aren’t dramatic changes, but they do require testing, so I didn’t want to push for them prior to launch.  I apologize to anyone who is disappointed.  I think we can get to an appropriately consistent, challenging level of PotD difficulty with a modicum of work and testing.

 

Edited May 5, 2018 by Infinitron

[master guardian]

thanks so much for letting me no that!

[kmbogd]

I am happy with his reply, it sounds that this will be mitigated in one of the earlier patches. In any case I didn't expect to see the best "facet" of Deadfire at release, but after at least several balancing patches.

[Wekmar]

But why release when the game is not ready. Difficulty is an important part of the game play experience. 

[Frog Man]

Yeah this is a tad disappointing but isn’t so bad. Just confirms most of us will start on a Veteran playthrough and wait until POTD is tuned properly.

[Archaven]

that's quite disappointing for me. i know many love RPG for it's story. it's same for me but gameplay and combat is far more important and is the heart of pillars to me. hopefully they will put effort in POTD during the development of the DLCs. let's hope it's not just spamming more enemies on screen with higher resist/AR/HP. i do like to see that enemies have some kind of intelligence? where they debuff your party character, use abilities, potions, etc.

[tonpix]

https://twitter.com/jesawyer/status/992566809856434177

 

 

 

our strategy for patching is to have a week 1 patch that addresses any incredibly bad problems that pop up and need to be addressed ASAP.  the patch *after* that is where i am targeting PotD difficulty increases.

 

So my bet is balance patch will come in 2-3 weeks after launch. What do you think?

[NZV]

I didn't really like PoE1 until replaying it on semi-recently on PotD. It wasn't crazy difficult, but it was difficult enough that the game mechanics actually mattered, and encounters lasted long enough for otherwise lackluster abilities to have a use. This is a pretty big bummer to hear, honestly.

[anathanielh]

ananthanielh: If you switched lower difficulties, areas you hadn't entered yet had their group sizes adjusted accordingly.

 

When you use cheat codes (or IEMod) to change to and from POTD, group sizes adjust in areas you haven't visited (just like before) but also the stats of everything are adjusted on the fly... the stat changes are applied instantly to things on the same map as you.

 

I recall experimenting with that on Gramrfel. Toggling POTD toggled the expected 15 on their defences.

 

So that technical explanation does not make sense for the restriction. That it was a choice they made does (and then "achievements" is the only rational explanation for the choice)

Only explanantion is dark magic preventing the watcher from making his journey any easier ir harder.

Thaos’ true plan was to implement achievements to cause this!

Edited May 5, 2018 by anathanielh

[Karkarov]

I don't understand why Obsidian would not allow players to change difficulty on the go. On second thoughts, i get it probably because of achievements.

Exactly, you didn't beat the game on path of the damned if you toggled the difficulty off of it, or started it at a lower setting.

 

PS - they have already said path of the damn is undertuned right now and too easy so why not jump in on it at release?

[Archaven]

 

I don't understand why Obsidian would not allow players to change difficulty on the go. On second thoughts, i get it probably because of achievements.

Exactly, you didn't beat the game on path of the damned if you toggled the difficulty off of it, or started it at a lower setting.

 

PS - they have already said path of the damn is undertuned right now and too easy so why not jump in on it at release?

 

 

I'm still thinking if i should go for the storyboard :D

[z_liquid]

Disappointing. I already took a day off for the 9th 

 

But the game does look very slick in other aspects. Guess it's time to break out the weird unsynergetic parties for first run.

[bleedthefreak]

Let's not forget yesterday he was still in the early area of the game. Was PoE1 PotD very difficult in the first 5 hours of the game? I watched a little bit just a bit ago and the fights are featuring lots of enemies and I watched him TPK in just the 10 minutes I was watching.

[Alot]

Was PoE1 PotD very difficult in the first 5 hours of the game?

Yes, but mostly because areas didn't have the difficulty indicator which is present in Deadfire.

[Doxy]

/sad orlan

was hoping to have an a$$ ripping experience on POTD, but now it'll be just a slap

[omgFIREBALLS]

Let's not forget yesterday he was still in the early area of the game. Was PoE1 PotD very difficult in the first 5 hours of the game? I watched a little bit just a bit ago and the fights are featuring lots of enemies and I watched him TPK in just the 10 minutes I was watching.

If I started on PotD with no prior PoE experience, I'm sure I would have found it very difficult right off the bat. My first playthrough was normal and I certainly wasn't facerolling. Of course after familiarizing myself with the game on normal and hard I had certain approaches ready for PotD and not everything was a struggle, and now very little is.

 

But you don't just start on PotD and have an easy time of it. You should be learning painful lessons every other battle. You should be wishing you'd built your characters differently, unless perhaps you did some hardcore feelycrafting in advance.

 

There is of course the possibility (hearing it from here and there) that some of PotD is indeed PotD and the tuning is just uneven rather than overall too easy, which isn't as disastrous.

 

But why release when the game is not ready. Difficulty is an important part of the game play experience. 

I agree, but I think they would have received way more flak if they postponed release another time. It feels like the dates have just been too optimistic. Of course it's hard to predict, and I can tolerate one poor judgment call, but two feels irresponsible.

[Kerozevok]

@J.Sawyer : Thank you for your sincerity.

[TheMetaphysician]

I remember at some point in the development cycle them saying that tuning PotD was pretty low on their priority list, since most people will play on Normal/Veteran difficulties. Those were their tuning priorities. So this shouldn't be a surprise. I actually really appreciate how much Sawyer seems to care about PotD difficulty, to the point that he'd apologize for it being too easy at times (more precisely, too uneven). Can you imagine, say, current day Bioware feeling the same? I can't. His attitude just confirms my trust in this studio.

 

As for me: I play slow, so the balancing patch should come out before I'm halfway through the game, and it is the second half I want tuned up anyway. Veteran (or Hard) is good enough for me early game, before my builds are complete.

[HAWmaro]

I understand but am still extremly disspointed, Just hope some of the end/mid game is actually challenging so we don't have to wait for 3 weeks after release.  

Also much love to Josh for how open and sincere he've been through the entire making of deadfire.

Edited May 5, 2018 by HAWmaro

[Luagha]

Karkarov: I love that somehow took from my posts that "undertuning" and "too easy" would be a carrot, when my complaint was that I couldn't trudge through under/overtuned encounters before

The tweet and stream have shown clearly that no matter how high you crank it up, Deadfire will suffer from the problem normal/hard had in the original BUT that a manual pass to make an even (instead of spiky) challenge will come in future weeks.

If he follows through with that then we'll get a POTD that we're still locked into but that's seen a human hand evening it out instead of the tacked on stat inflation from the original and waiting until he's done that for a first playthrough will make me a happy camper ^_^

Perhaps the less grimdark tone of D:OS2 will be a great palette cleanser for the intervening month, anyway. Might even be healhier that way lol.

Edited May 5, 2018 by Luagha

[The Sharmat]

Let's not forget yesterday he was still in the early area of the game. Was PoE1 PotD very difficult in the first 5 hours of the game? I watched a little bit just a bit ago and the fights are featuring lots of enemies and I watched him TPK in just the 10 minutes I was watching.

Temple of Eothas and Caed Nua could be yeah. Final fight at Raedric's Hold as well.