Skald multiclass options

[Sobric]

I'm not in the Deadfire beta so can't test any of this yet, but I'm keen to try and plan ahead of release next week a build (or at least a rough idea of a build).

 

The class I think I'm interested in rolling with first is a skald. I didn't play chanter much in PoE1 but the focus of the skald kit on crits to support offensive invocations appeals to me a great deal!

 

My question is what would be an appropriate class to multi it with?

 

I've tried to research other classes skills as much as possible, but I'm having a hard time pinning down a class that's focused on crit chance.

 

So far I think Fighter might be the most appropriate due to the disciplined strikes upgrade that gives the Intuitive buff, but maybe rogue or even wizard (melee wizard buffs) would make more sense?

 

Any insight onto weapons and weapon styles would also be appreciated. I presume rapiers (due to their modal), but I can't work out if single style accuracy is better than dual wields more chances.

 

All ideas welcomed!

[TheMetaphysician]

Yes, fighter with the disciplined strikes upgrade seems the best to me (Boeroer pointed that out in another thread, which is where I first saw it). Also, if as a skald you focus on the paralyze invocation, paralyzed enemies get 50% incoming hit-to-crit, so you'll get into a virtuous cycle (paralyze --> more crits --> more paralyze).

 

If you are relying on the hit-to-crit conversion from disciplined strikes/paralyze, then I would guess that you'd want to maximize the number of hits rather than focus on fewer, more accurate hits. So I'd lean toward 2-weapon style. But I have no numbers to back that up, and I'm not sure how to analyze that more carefully.

[Boeroer]

I would agree.

 

Fighter is THE crit machine with Disciplined Strikes in Deadfire so far. And has also an AoE capability with Cleaving Stance.

 

Disciplined Strikes and Killers Froze Stiff will make sure you convert most of your hits into crits (75%) so I think that speed is more important than accuracy here.

 

Speed you can achieve with light/no armor and dual wielding (light) one handers. A Skald can run phrases that heal him (and the party) that stack with Constant Recovery in order to compensate for lower AR - or can later use the damage shield.

 

Also his starting values/points per level will be better as fighter/skald because those get averaged and fighters have better values (except Will defense).

 

Drawback compared to a single class Skald will be that you will have no access to the following abilites:

• PL 8 Unlock - The Wind's Razored Nails Ripping Through Flesh
• PL 8 Unlock - I sound my barbaric yawp over the roofs of the world
• PL 8 Unlock - With all your Strength, Slay the Beast!
• PL 8 Unlock - The Foul Thing
• PL 8 Unlock - As the Song Reached Its Creshendo
• PL 8 Unlock - And with a furious thrust, drover her dagger into his heart
• PL 9 Unlock - Did sing a song of carnage Fair
• PL 9 Unlock - His heart did fill with the light of the Dawn!
• PL 9 Unlock - The Great Wyrm Flew O'er the Mountains
• PL 9 Unlock - The Arrow Sings Between the Dragon's Scales
• PL 9 Unlock - And sip from the Marrow

Whatever those are...

And you will get access to higher PL abilits later of course. But I think the higher crit chance and Constant Recovery are worth it. And you get Charge!

Edited May 2, 2018 by Boeroer

[dunehunter]

That new charge in the update 46 looks like the melee version of Evasive Fire. I think based on the damage numbers it is a full attack ability. Seems like it doesn't damage enemies on its line, only the target charged now. 

[Kirschkern]

In the high level gameplay video from a couple of days ago they hovered over a Plvl 6 invocation (iirc) that energizes the chanter. +5mig +2pen and interrupts on every crit which should work pretty nicely with a fast hitting crit skald.

[Voss]

Doesn't berserker\skald have a similar hit to crit conversion? (From frenzy) Grab some clubs and bang on your drums (enemies) all day.

Edited May 1, 2018 by Voss

[Sobric]

Thanks Boerer amazing feedback! I saw some of the other posts you made subsequent to this as well so I think that answers most of my questions.

 

In terms of weapon choice, are rapiers (and their modal) enough? I'm hoping for RP reasons to dual wield something more, erm, macho.

 

Secondly, how do other sources of accuracy stack now? Would zealous aura from a paladin stack with disciplined strikes? Or would one override the other.

[TheMetaphysician]

Spears have an accuracy boost too. You probably won't use their modal. But spears are macho.

 

And the general stacking rule is: active abilities don't stack, passives do. And paladin auras are active abilities. However, as long as the two things don't buff the same thing exactly, they can stack. Disciplined strikes doesn't buff accuracy directly; it buffs perception, which happens to raise accuracy. So the paladin accuracy aura will stack with disciplined strikes. It will not, however, stack with the fighter's warrior/conqueror stance, since they both buff accuracy directly.

Edited May 1, 2018 by TheMetaphysician

[Boeroer]

Thanks Boerer amazing feedback! I saw some of the other posts you made subsequent to this as well so I think that answers most of my questions.

 

In terms of weapon choice, are rapiers (and their modal) enough? I'm hoping for RP reasons to dual wield something more, erm, macho.

 

Secondly, how do other sources of accuracy stack now? Would zealous aura from a paladin stack with disciplined strikes? Or would one override the other.

Conversions do stack, but they don't get added but are rolled one after the other. So they rather get multiplied. If you have a conversion of 50% and another of 50% as well as the Upgrade of Zealous Focus you will have an overall chance of 76% to convert. Without Exhalted Focus it's 75%... not worth it. 

[Ascaloth]

My first Watcher is going to be a Trickster/Skald, so that's another option if you want someone with a more roguish bent to him. This guy does less Sneak Attack damage than the other Rogue variants, but that's less of an issue when you just need to farm crits for the Skald, and not pure damage per se. Probably isn't as optimized a crit-machine as Boeroer's Fighter multiclass, but he also comes with Illusion spells for added survivability and shenanigans. 

 

As for rapiers and DW, I'd suggest a Dagger in the off-hand; its modal gives bonus Deflection for more survivability, making it an alternative for shields while retaining the DW speed bonus. Plus, rapier and dagger is basically the classic duelist set. 

[Yosharian]

I was looking at a Skald/Fighter with the following attribute distribution:

 

MIG: 18 (always max MIG on a melee character in Deadfire)

CON: 08

DEX: 15 (fast attacks = more crits = more phrases, also faster casting speed)

PER: 18 (accuracy = more crits)

INT: 10

RES: 10

 

More into Paladin/Troubadour now, but that was what I was considering

[Sobric]

 

I was looking at a Skald/Fighter with the following attribute distribution:

 

MIG: 18 (always max MIG on a melee character in Deadfire)

CON: 08

DEX: 15 (fast attacks = more crits = more phrases, also faster casting speed)

PER: 18 (accuracy = more crits)

INT: 10

RES: 10

 

More into Paladin/Troubadour now, but that was what I was considering

I had wondered how to split stats, and I'm glad to see you're not suggesting to completely tank con and res as I'm not too keen on that 1st playthrough.

 

Why is might so essential in Deadfire? Penetration?

 

And is Intelligence not going to be important for the duration of killers froze stiff?

[Boeroer]

The MIG bonus is multiplicative in Deadfire. So every damage roll you do will get affected by your dmg mods like crit (+25% weapon base damage), overpenetration (+30% base) and so on and THEN the MIG bonus comes aorund and multiplies with that. In PoE is was simply an additive bonus. That's why MIG is much more important now. Imagine a Rogue with Sneak Attack and Backstab (+150%), doing a crit and he has 20 MIG (*1.6 dmg mod). Backstab's bonus of 150% gets multiplied by 1.6 and is worth 240% all of a sudden. Sneak Attack is pumped from 50% to 80%, the crit does +40% instead of +25% and so on.

 

More INT will lead to a longer paralyze and also a bigger cone. And also a longer linger time of your phrases!

[KDubya]

Doesn't berserker\skald have a similar hit to crit conversion? (From frenzy) Grab some clubs and bang on your drums (enemies) all day.

 

The Berserker confusion would have your chants affecting your enemies for buffs and your team for debuffs in addition to friendly fire from carnage.

[Urthor]

The MIG bonus is multiplicative in Deadfire. So every damage roll you do will get affected by your dmg mods like crit (+25% weapon base damage), overpenetration (+30% base) and so on and THEN the MIG bonus comes aorund and multiplies with that. In PoE is was simply an additive bonus. That's why MIG is much more important now. Imagine a Rogue with Sneak Attack and Backstab (+150%), doing a crit and he has 20 MIG (*1.6 dmg mod). Backstab's bonus of 150% gets multiplied by 1.6 and is worth 240% all of a sudden. Sneak Attack is pumped from 50% to 80%, the crit does +40% instead of +25% and so on.

 

More INT will lead to a longer paralyze and also a bigger cone. And also a longer linger time of your phrases!

 

oh what, that's insane.  Sawyer went from "attributes don't matter" all the way in the other direction now?  Unbelievable

[hilfazer]

 

I was looking at a Skald/Fighter with the following attribute distribution:

 

MIG: 18 (always max MIG on a melee character in Deadfire)

CON: 08

DEX: 15 (fast attacks = more crits = more phrases, also faster casting speed)

PER: 18 (accuracy = more crits)

INT: 10

RES: 10

 

More into Paladin/Troubadour now, but that was what I was considering

I had wondered how to split stats, and I'm glad to see you're not suggesting to completely tank con and res as I'm not too keen on that 1st playthrough.

 

Why is might so essential in Deadfire? Penetration?

 

And is Intelligence not going to be important for the duration of killers froze stiff?

 

 

Might is a god attribute. Multiplicative bonus to all damage and healing (while dex become additive).

 

It's a Pillars game - if you care about duration at all you're maxing Intellect.

[malchiorita]

 

I was looking at a Skald/Fighter with the following attribute distribution:

 

MIG: 18 (always max MIG on a melee character in Deadfire)

CON: 08

DEX: 15 (fast attacks = more crits = more phrases, also faster casting speed)

PER: 18 (accuracy = more crits)

INT: 10

RES: 10

 

More into Paladin/Troubadour now, but that was what I was considering

I was thinking about a similar stat distrubution for my pc but... Isnt that 1 more point above what we have?

[Yosharian]

 

I was looking at a Skald/Fighter with the following attribute distribution:

 

MIG: 18 (always max MIG on a melee character in Deadfire)

CON: 08

DEX: 15 (fast attacks = more crits = more phrases, also faster casting speed)

PER: 18 (accuracy = more crits)

INT: 10

RES: 10

 

More into Paladin/Troubadour now, but that was what I was considering

I had wondered how to split stats, and I'm glad to see you're not suggesting to completely tank con and res as I'm not too keen on that 1st playthrough.

 

Why is might so essential in Deadfire? Penetration?

 

And is Intelligence not going to be important for the duration of killers froze stiff?

Intellect is important, which is why I set it to 10. Dexterity and Perception are more important for this build than slightly longer paralyzes.

[Madscientist]

 

The MIG bonus is multiplicative in Deadfire. So every damage roll you do will get affected by your dmg mods like crit (+25% weapon base damage), overpenetration (+30% base) and so on and THEN the MIG bonus comes aorund and multiplies with that. In PoE is was simply an additive bonus. That's why MIG is much more important now. Imagine a Rogue with Sneak Attack and Backstab (+150%), doing a crit and he has 20 MIG (*1.6 dmg mod). Backstab's bonus of 150% gets multiplied by 1.6 and is worth 240% all of a sudden. Sneak Attack is pumped from 50% to 80%, the crit does +40% instead of +25% and so on.

 

More INT will lead to a longer paralyze and also a bigger cone. And also a longer linger time of your phrases!

 

oh what, that's insane.  Sawyer went from "attributes don't matter" all the way in the other direction now?  Unbelievable

 

 

Well, the formulas have gotten more complicated. You can look here:

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/94713-compilation-thread-balance-classes-feedback-game-mechanics/

( The damage formula can be found if you scroll down a bit )

 

Some things are multiplicative, some thing are additive and penalties get a double inversion.

The math is really complicated now and I am not a math expert, but I guess it means:

- might is more importent than before

- weapon modals that reduce damage are also multiplicative, like might

- penalties have a really big effect on the end result but they also have diminishing returns ( one penalty has a big impact, but several penalties together have a smaller impact than the addition of the penalties if everyone was calculated alone.

 

result: The game favours extreme actions for damage and attack speed

- stack bonusses like crazy and avoid all penalties to have a maximum effect, even one penalty gives a large drop

- If you already have a penalty you might as well add some more. You have ruined your maximum effect anyway and penalties have deminishing returns, so if different penalties for the same thing ( damage, speed) give a bonus for different things the profit might be worth it. ( e.g. attack speed malus from armor with high AR + attack speed bonus from something that raises your defenses)

 

This leads to some strange results, like you should use 2h weapons naked while you can dual wield in heavy armor.

2h weapons have a long recovery and if heavy armor adds +X% recovery the time between attacks gets super long.

Dual wielding has short recovery so adding +X% recovery adds only a little bit time.

[Sobric]

Apologies to resurrect this thread, but it looks as though there have been some recent changes to dual wield, so that it's now "only" -15% recovery time to weapon recovery time.

 

It seems to me that single weapon style might now be the best choice for a skald to maximise crit chance (single weapon style & disciplined strikes would be 60% if they stack I think? Going up to 90% if you're hitting a target affected by the killers froze stiff). The reduced weapon speed recovery on fast weapons doesn't seem to worth it.

 

Does this seem right or am I well off?

[TheMetaphysician]

Apologies to resurrect this thread, but it looks as though there have been some recent changes to dual wield, so that it's now "only" -15% recovery time to weapon recovery time.

 

It seems to me that single weapon style might now be the best choice for a skald to maximise crit chance (single weapon style & disciplined strikes would be 60% if they stack I think? Going up to 90% if you're hitting a target affected by the killers froze stiff). The reduced weapon speed recovery on fast weapons doesn't seem to worth it.

 

Does this seem right or am I well off?

 They don't stack exactly that way. Each hit-to-crit chance gets checked independently, one after the other. So if you have one 25% hit-to-crit from disciplined strikes' intuitive inspiration (it was nerfed from 50% by the way) and 20% from one-handed style, one will be checked, then the other if the first doesn't upgrade it.

 

So, imagine you check the 25% chance first. 75% won't get upgraded. Then you have another 20% chance of upgrading those 75%, which means that the 20% chance is really, functionally, 20% of 75%, which is actually 15% (.2 x .75). So you get 40% hit-to-crit from disciplined strikes and one-handed style, not 45%. And so on with any other sources -- you get progressively smaller returns with every additional source.

Edited May 6, 2018 by TheMetaphysician

[Boeroer]

Dual wielding gives you a 30% speed bonus without any style. The style gives you additional 15% speed.

[Sobric]

 

Apologies to resurrect this thread, but it looks as though there have been some recent changes to dual wield, so that it's now "only" -15% recovery time to weapon recovery time.

 

It seems to me that single weapon style might now be the best choice for a skald to maximise crit chance (single weapon style & disciplined strikes would be 60% if they stack I think? Going up to 90% if you're hitting a target affected by the killers froze stiff). The reduced weapon speed recovery on fast weapons doesn't seem to worth it.

 

Does this seem right or am I well off?

They don't stack exactly that way. Each hit-to-crit chance gets checked independently, one after the other. So if you have one 25% hit-to-crit from disciplined strikes' intuitive inspiration (it was nerfed from 50% by the way) and 20% from one-handed style, one will be checked, then the other if the first doesn't upgrade it.

 

So, imagine you check the 25% chance first. 75% won't get upgraded. Then you have another 20% chance of upgrading those 75%, which means that the 20% chance is really, functionally, 20% of 75%, which is actually 15% (.2 x .75). So you get 40% hit-to-crit from disciplined strikes and one-handed style, not 45%. And so on with any other sources -- you get progressively smaller returns with every additional source.

Right sorry I think I see now. A shame about Intuitive but perhaps it was too strong.

 

Thanks for all your help!

[TheMetaphysician]

 

 

Apologies to resurrect this thread, but it looks as though there have been some recent changes to dual wield, so that it's now "only" -15% recovery time to weapon recovery time.

 

It seems to me that single weapon style might now be the best choice for a skald to maximise crit chance (single weapon style & disciplined strikes would be 60% if they stack I think? Going up to 90% if you're hitting a target affected by the killers froze stiff). The reduced weapon speed recovery on fast weapons doesn't seem to worth it.

 

Does this seem right or am I well off?

They don't stack exactly that way. Each hit-to-crit chance gets checked independently, one after the other. So if you have one 25% hit-to-crit from disciplined strikes' intuitive inspiration (it was nerfed from 50% by the way) and 20% from one-handed style, one will be checked, then the other if the first doesn't upgrade it.

 

So, imagine you check the 25% chance first. 75% won't get upgraded. Then you have another 20% chance of upgrading those 75%, which means that the 20% chance is really, functionally, 20% of 75%, which is actually 15% (.2 x .75). So you get 40% hit-to-crit from disciplined strikes and one-handed style, not 45%. And so on with any other sources -- you get progressively smaller returns with every additional source.

Right sorry I think I see now. A shame about Intuitive but perhaps it was too strong.

 

Thanks for all your help!

 

I think it is overly complicated. I wish you could just add the chances up together -- it would be a lot easier to figure out.

[QuiteGoneJin]

Didn't I read somewhere that might dmg bonus was additive now too, does this affect the stat spread of a Fighter Skald? Having a hard time picking a secondary class. Tried Trickster but it felt too weak at the start. Altough it could be my stat spread or weapon, I'm not a strong theory crafter. 

Edited May 10, 2018 by QuiteGoneJin