threat mechanics

[MaxQuest]

In PoE1, my understanding is that targeting is primarily based on defenses, not class. So casters (especially wizards) naturally get picked on because they have bad base deflection, are usually geared for offense rather than defense, and frequently dump defensive stats, but the same is true of rogues and barbarians. I'm not sure how much a character's actions once the fight begins matter; it would make sense to do some amount of reprioritizing, though there is a balance needed here since focusing attacks is valuable in itself and too much switching could reduce the threat by spreading damage around too much.

It depends.

Different enemies have different target preferences. And there are 16 target preferences:

 

public enum TargetPreferenceType
{
  None,
  HighestStamina,
  LowestStamina,
  LowestDamageThreshold,
  HighestDefense,
  LowestDefense,
  HighestDamageInflictor,
  CurrentEngager,
  SneakAttackVulnerable,
  LowNumberOfEngagers,
  Spellcasters,
  AfflictedBy,
  BehindAttacker,
  FastestClass,
  EngagedByAnimalCompanion,
  Engaged
}

 

 

Here's a mini FAQ:

 

Q: What is the most common preference?

A: The most common is None. Majority of enemies have this one set for their auto-attacking. For example melee xaurips.

 

Q: How does preference "None" work??

A: During combat each AI periodically scans for all enemies in 30f range, and calculates a special coefficient for each enemy found:

coef = 2 * distance_to_target / 30 + 0.5 * target_current_endurance_percentage / 100;

coef-= 3 (if AI is already engaging that target)

coef-= 2.4 (if AI is already being engaged by that target)

The enemy with lowest coef, will be selected as new target.

 

Q: What about "LowestStamina"?

A: Some spellcasters have this set for their single-target spells. Iirc it's used for Ooze Spit for example.

Instead of the above None, this coefficient is calculated in the following way:

coef = 0.6 * distance_to_target / 30 + 1.75 * target_current_endurance_percentage / 100;

The enemy with lowest coef, will be selected as the target for that spell.

 

Q: Can an enemy have multiple preferences?

A: Yes. For example Shade has 3 abilities and also can auto-attack. All these use different preferences:

- Draining Freeze: LowestDamageThreshold (Freeze)

- Instant Teleport: LowNumberOfEngagers

- Summon Shadow: no preference

- UseWeapon: LowestDefense (iirc either will or deflection is checked here)

 

Q: LowestDefense? How does this one work?

A: coef = related_defense

note: majority of preferences do factor distance to target; this one does not

 

Q: What about LowestDamageThreshold?

A: coef = related_DR

AI will target the one with lowest coef. What if there are several enemies with same DR? It will take the first one scanned.

Btw, that's why I often advocated for Hide Armor and Freeze-Proofing, as a mean to help the squishies vs teleporting shades.

note: this one also does not factor distance to target.

 

Q: What about LowNumberOfEngagers?

A: The coefficient is calculated in the following manner:

coef = distance_to_target / 30 + number_of_enemies_engaging_the_target * 5

coef-= 5 (if AI is already engaging the target)

AI will target the enemy with lowest coef.

 

Q: My rogue is often targeted over my fighter, why?

A: Rogue could be targeted because he has lower DR, or lower current endurance percentage, or lower defense, or simply because he is closer. 15 out of 16 preferences do not make an implicit check for rogue. Only "FastestClass" does:

coef = 1f - distance_to_target / 30;

coef+= 5 (if fighter)

coef+= 10 (if rogue)

coef+= 8 (if barbarian)

coef+= 7 (if ranger)

coef+= 6 (if paladin)

coef+= 9 (if monk)

Afaik this preference is used for rooting/stuck spells. AI will target the enemy with highest coef.

 

Q: What about spellcasters? Is there a preference that targets them explictly?

A: Yes, it's the "Spellcasters" preference.

coef = 2 * (1 - distance_to_target / 30)

coef+= 6 + random(0,2) (if priest, druid, wizard, cipher, chanter)

AI will target the enemy with highest coef.

 

P.S. Now you know what to do with shades)

Edited January 18, 2018 by MaxQuest

[JerekKruger]

Brilliant information Max.

[tinysalamander]

Imo, unless mooks have some ability to discern "danger lever" at a glance, why would they run past the toon swinging a sword at their head for the toon in the process of casting a spell (and they wouldn't know what spell is being cast anyway)?

 

Killing a guy in robes makes sense in the world where casters exist. The problem isn't that, but the fact that you can't really do anything about it.

[JerekKruger]

Killing a guy in robes makes sense in the world where casters exist. 

 

It makes sense even in a world where they don't. Kill off the soft targets then gang up on the guy in plate seems a fairly sensible tactic to me.

[MaxQuest]

Killing a guy in robes makes sense in the world where casters exist. The problem isn't that, but the fact that you can't really do anything about it.

Well... that's what hard-cc is for)

 

Also you could try the following:

- body or door block if possible

- unstealthing your front and midline before your backline often makes shades teleport to someone of them, instead of going straight for your squishies. (note: enemy special abilities do have cooldowns)

- designating a dedicated scape-goat. Take someone (usually a moon godlike), make sure that he has lowest deflection and freeze DR, and place him in midline. He'll serve as a magnet for those with LowestDamageThreshold and LowestDefense preferences (like shades and enemy barbarians). The idea is to disable them all via AoE cc effects, once they flock to the target. And you get bonus points if the goat has Swadling Sheet cloak, and Fenwalkers boots. Note: you could technically equip also stuff like: Malina's Boots, Gyrd Háewanes and Raiment of Wael's Eyes for the defensive procs, but you might need an additional disabler, since there is a high chance shades would switch to target with lower defenses.

Edited January 19, 2018 by MaxQuest

[Guest 4ward]

Threat in classic WoW is good, but that's because if you were a tank that's your main objective and you're only controlling one guy. I think if you're controlling 5 characters it will require a lot of effort or just be way too much hassle.

 

But then again I do kinda wish they had it in the first game, decking out my guy to be a armoured badass and everyone runs straight past him to slap my mage. ANNOYING!

 

Engagement should be more punishing. If your tank has gone toe to toe with someone and then the other guy decides he wants to attempt to run off and attack someone else. He should get completely clobbered onto his arse.

 

this isn‘t a fencing simulator though where you are only allowed to move few meters forward/backward, fight without ranged weapons, without disabling abilities and without party members to aid you. The scenario you described assumes that the mage stands and waits to be slaughtered; give him protections like in say BG2 and he‘s well protected while not losing action speed and being allowed to move unless disabled. If your mage woudn‘t have that and would be paralyzed together with the other party members, yes, in that highly unlikely scenario i could imagine that someone running towards your mage could be a problem. Also, why would an enemy without abilities and without defense against melee attacks actually enagage you in melee? Wouldn‘t the enemy rather stay back and use ranged weapons? Because anything else would be suicide. And why should an enemy who decides to go in melee against your fighter not be able to move away safely? Who says that while your fighter is making his next swing the enemy wasn‘t dexterious enough to move away without being hit? If the player imagines a role for his combatant like in a hollywood movie or in a fencing simulator and asks the designer for appropriatre systems to fit the role, then he‘s basically asking the designer to kill reactivity during combat and rely on stupid enemy AI. This is where roleplaying kills interesting combat IMO.

edit: Last sentence edited.

Edited January 19, 2018 by 4ward

[MortyTheGobbo]

 

Killing a guy in robes makes sense in the world where casters exist. The problem isn't that, but the fact that you can't really do anything about it.

Well... that's what hard-cc is for)

 

Also you could try the following:

- body or door block if possible

- unstealthing your front and midline before your backline often makes shades teleport to someone of them, instead of going straight for your squishies. (note: enemy special abilities do have cooldowns)

- designating a dedicated scape-goat. Take someone (usually a moon godlike), make sure that he has lowest deflection and freeze DR, and place him in midline. He'll serve as a magnet for those with LowestDamageThreshold and LowestDefense preferences (like shades and enemy barbarians). The idea is to disable them all via AoE cc effects, once they flock to the target. And you get bonus points if the goat has Swadling Sheet cloak, and Fenwalkers boots. Note: you could technically equip also stuff like: Malina's Boots, Gyrd Háewanes and Raiment of Wael's Eyes for the defensive procs, but you might need an additional disabler, since there is a high chance shades would switch to target with lower defenses.

 

 

None of this really helps a new or inexperienced player whose backline keeps getting ganged up on and murdered.

 

Taunting and provoking enemies is a crude but workable patch for the fact that there's only so much you can do with an AI. It wouldn't really suit Pillars, but I think we do need some better tools for stopping enemies, and I hope Deadfire provides some.

[Gfted1]

Killing a guy in robes makes sense in the world where casters exist.

Is it better to wear for example Hide armor (and eat the additional 10% penalty)? Does the additional protection and removal from some "threat determiner" outweigh 10% additional time on a 6 second spell?

[MaxQuest]

None of this really helps a new or inexperienced player whose backline keeps getting ganged up on and murdered.

 

Taunting and provoking enemies is a crude but workable patch for the fact that there's only so much you can do with an AI. It wouldn't really suit Pillars, but I think we do need some better tools for stopping enemies, and I hope Deadfire provides some.

Hmm. From one point of view I agree with you (since the listed methods require either some experience, or availability of worthy hard cc spells). From another, not quite sure. A new or inexperienced player will unlikely play on PotD, or upscale content, and it will take more time for his squishy backline to fall under the pressure of the enemies that have rushed through (which are also less in numbers). So dunno; am neither convinced, nor have any concrete stance on this matter. At least not yet.

 

Do you have any suggestions regarding taunting? Personally only the following come to mind atm:

- plain and simple taunting: enemy is forced to attack the taunter for x seconds. Although it's unclear what if player wants to cast an AoE or CC; and what if enemy taunts the player.

- more abilities with stuck and immobilize afflictions

- some abilities like blink, that would hobble everyone around the starting points

- intercept abilities: e.g. a fighter can rush and intercept the next n blows directed at his ally

Edited January 19, 2018 by MaxQuest

[tinysalamander]

Well... that's what hard-cc is for)

 

Also you could try the following:

- body or door block if possible

- unstealthing your front and midline before your backline often makes shades teleport to someone of them, instead of going straight for your squishies. (note: enemy special abilities do have cooldowns)

- designating a dedicated scape-goat. Take someone (usually a moon godlike), make sure that he has lowest deflection and freeze DR, and place him in midline. He'll serve as a magnet for those with LowestDamageThreshold and LowestDefense preferences (like shades and enemy barbarians). The idea is to disable them all via AoE cc effects, once they flock to the target. And you get bonus points if the goat has Swadling Sheet cloak, and Fenwalkers boots. Note: you could technically equip also stuff like: Malina's Boots, Gyrd Háewanes and Raiment of Wael's Eyes for the defensive procs, but you might need an additional disabler, since there is a high chance shades would switch to target with lower defenses.

 

My hard CC is a sword inside soft kithmeat.

 

These are very specific ways which I find… a pain to use. Well, maybe not door blocking, but you aren't always near a door. Edér notwithstanding. Maybe better control over your party formation when moving could help.

[MortyTheGobbo]

 

None of this really helps a new or inexperienced player whose backline keeps getting ganged up on and murdered.

 

Taunting and provoking enemies is a crude but workable patch for the fact that there's only so much you can do with an AI. It wouldn't really suit Pillars, but I think we do need some better tools for stopping enemies, and I hope Deadfire provides some.

Hmm. From one point of view I agree with you (since the listed methods require either some experience, or availability of worthy hard cc spells). From another, not quite sure. A new or inexperienced player will unlikely play on PotD, or upscale content, and it will take more time for his squishy backline to fall under the pressure of the enemies that have rushed through (which are also less in numbers). So dunno; am neither convinced, nor have any concrete stance on this matter. At least not yet.

 

Do you have any suggestions regarding taunting? Personally only the following come to mind atm:

- plain and simple taunting: enemy is forced to attack the taunter for x seconds. Although it's unclear what if player wants to cast an AoE or CC; and what if enemy taunts the player.

- more abilities with stuck and immobilize afflictions

- some abilities like blink, that would hobble everyone around the starting points

- intercept abilities: e.g. a fighter can rush and intercept the next n blows directed at his ally

 

I feel like more abilities to slow down, immobilize, push and pull enemies by fighters and other "tanky" classes would work best. But, well, I'm not a game designer. I don't think straight-up forcing enemies to attack a particular party member would fit the game Pillars is, and the devs are on record agreeing.

 

Something along the lines of Take the Hit could work, if it was more practical. Or perhaps slapping enemies with penalties to attack party members other than the tank? I have no idea if the latter is even doable with Deadfire's tech. But I generally think that looking to 4E D&D isn't a bad idea, especially the fighter class. It manages to be an effective, sticky defender without using taunt mechanics.

[Ninjamestari]

What class do mooks focus on when there isn't a caster in the party? Is any spell, big or small, damage or healing, an instantaneous trigger to rush the back line with total disregard for AoO?

 

Well there is such a thing as opportunity, people tend to take them when they're available, or regret not taking them afterwards.

[Boeroer]

There's a very easy way for an inexperienced player to prevent the slaughter of his backline: don't use glass cannons. As soon as you slap on some hide or leather armor and don't give them all 3 RES and 3 CON the problem is greatly reduced. "But my precious dps!" Well, dead party members do pretty low dps numbers...

 

Add to this that your backline should stay hidden until the front liners engage and the problem of melee rushers disappears nearly completely.

 

Those are things even beginners should be able to understand and do.

 

The more experienced players can then play around with glass cannons, using hard cc, charming, scape-goats to prevent their death. You can combine hard-cc and hefty alpha-strikes to take out "squishy killers" before they can do their job and combine this with "behind the lines" actions where a melee char rushes to the squishies of the enemy and takes them out before they take out your squishies. This all adds to a nice combat experience.

 

You can even combine it all.

 

I like this a lot more than those taunting mechanics which I personally find quite annoying and also a bit stupid. Why should an archer attack me in my fine plate armor + frog helmet, frenetically slamming my large shield - while my naked friend with the war bow stands not far behind me?

 

Also, there is something like taunting: just walk in front and unstealth while the rest stays hidden, preferably with two or even three front liners. Enemies who are engaged by your frontliners are less likely to attack your back line. Since one single tank can't engage all melee enemies (at least on PotD diff) you simply need more frontliners.

 

Just doing *taunt-taunt-chuck-chuck-chuck* and everything is glued to your tank seems so dull and boring. It's like having a Pull of Eora on your frontline all the time.

[SaruNi]

If enemy AI is programmed similarly for PoE 2.....

 

What about an Evoker or Priest of Magran Flame Shield retaliation tank with Paladin/chanter support?

 

With St Elga---minimal health, no armor spellcaster... Death Godlike +3 power level bonus... can't die and gets +5 resolve from upgraded LoH (Courageous inspiration).

 

With Darcozzini---minor flame shield and flame shield should stack. 

 

Chanter for the Concentration chant, if you want to cast spells other than the initial Flame Shield.

 

Of course if AI is changed to avoid retaliation and unkillable characters this won't work (though that would be good in a different way if it causes enemies to not attack casters).

Edited January 20, 2018 by SaruNi

[dixon_sider]

The only thing that bugged me about pillars of eternity 1 was that the engagement mechanic was not at all punishing for the enemies. The only difficulty i have ever played was path of the damned, so i understand that I bring it upon myself, but in wide open areas i had to resort to cheesy tactics like kite zoning many times. I wish there was a way to make my "tanks" feel more valuable. Enemies would just ignore Eder and chase after whoever had the least deflection or armor on my team.

 

The non MMO game that i thought did threat generation/control the best was dragon age 2 (despite being released a year too early). Tanking was still very difficult unless you controlled the tank exclusively. 

[Guest 4ward]

 

some enemies always find a way to get through, despite tactics and brave fighters

[daven]

 

Threat in classic WoW is good, but that's because if you were a tank that's your main objective and you're only controlling one guy. I think if you're controlling 5 characters it will require a lot of effort or just be way too much hassle.

 

But then again I do kinda wish they had it in the first game, decking out my guy to be a armoured badass and everyone runs straight past him to slap my mage. ANNOYING!

 

Engagement should be more punishing. If your tank has gone toe to toe with someone and then the other guy decides he wants to attempt to run off and attack someone else. He should get completely clobbered onto his arse.

 

this isn‘t a fencing simulator though where you are only allowed to move few meters forward/backward, fight without ranged weapons, without disabling abilities and without party members to aid you. The scenario you described assumes that the mage stands and waits to be slaughtered; give him protections like in say BG2 and he‘s well protected while not losing action speed and being allowed to move unless disabled. If your mage woudn‘t have that and would be paralyzed together with the other party members, yes, in that highly unlikely scenario i could imagine that someone running towards your mage could be a problem. Also, why would an enemy without abilities and without defense against melee attacks actually enagage you in melee? Wouldn‘t the enemy rather stay back and use ranged weapons? Because anything else would be suicide. And why should an enemy who decides to go in melee against your fighter not be able to move away safely? Who says that while your fighter is making his next swing the enemy wasn‘t dexterious enough to move away without being hit? If the player imagines a role for his combatant like in a hollywood movie or in a fencing simulator and asks the designer for appropriatre systems to fit the role, then he‘s basically asking the designer to kill reactivity during combat and rely on stupid enemy AI. This is where roleplaying kills interesting combat IMO.

edit: Last sentence edited.

 

You make some interesting points.

 

I think breaking engagement should probably be a bit more punishing though.