Health vs. Endurance/Health

[Yggdregg]

I don't like how health and endurance are rolled into one and as a result of that it's now basically health which auto-regenerates out of combat.

With the dual system in place it was at least perfectly reasonable for endurance to slowly auto-regenerate after combat while health for obvious reasons did not. Nobody questions a character recuperating or catching breath (= auto-regenerating endurance) but when it's just health that's regenerating on its own for no good reason you begin to wonder.

Would it be too much to ask for the dual system from the original POE to be given another chance? Maybe in one of the next builds as suggested in post #47?

[Wormerine]

Otherwise you're going to investors with your sales pitch sounding like :

"We hope that, amongst those who played POE, some will follow and buy the sequel; we don't really think anyone else will be interested tho, so, you know... give moneys nao".

It is a crowdfunded game. It is also why Obsidian is doing this beta and listening to feedback. The sales pitch was on fig.

 

That said new system seems to do what it was designed to do. It provides more or less the same utility health/endurance did but with clearer UI and easier to understand system. Personally I do find it awkward but more I played less it bothers me. It’s not really winning me over (I still think previous system worked more naturally) but it stops bothering me.

[daven]

Resting should only be allowed in certain areas and there should be a finite amount of uses of some kind of 'injury kit' per rest.

 

Basically like Dark souls with bonfires and estus.

[Wormerine]

Resting should only be allowed in certain areas and there should be a finite amount of uses of some kind of 'injury kit' per rest.

 

Basically like Dark souls with bonfires and estus.

Should it though? Dark Souls works but death is part of Dark Souls. Same in XCOM, Darkest Dungeon etc. Problem with IE games is that you don’t really want companions to die. Because they are written companions. They are kinda important. So since KOTOR2 RPGs move away from it because perma death in the kind of RPG is kinda stupid. In BG if your companion was torn to shreds and unfit for resurrection you would reload. You just would. So you were given Health/endurance which made dying possible but easily avoidable. He same is with current health system.

 

Once you add that kind of resource management, tangible risk/reward it becomes different game entirely. A game I still like, but a game where putting lots of resources into creating and writing companions, developing relationship system is just misguided.

[Katarack21]

I turn off permadeath in Pillars. Companions stories are important to me. If I fail and die, the game reloads; to me, if a companion permanently dies it ruins the game just as much. So I don't mind difficulty resulting in failed states, but I *don't* want permanent companion death in story-driven RPG.

[daven]

1.  

    

   Resting should only be allowed in certain areas and there should be a finite amount of uses of some kind of 'injury kit' per rest.

    

   Basically like Dark souls with bonfires and estus.

   Should it though? Dark Souls works but death is part of Dark Souls. Same in XCOM, Darkest Dungeon etc. Problem with IE games is that you don’t really want companions to die. Because they are written companions. They are kinda important. So since KOTOR2 RPGs move away from it because perma death in the kind of RPG is kinda stupid. In BG if your companion was torn to shreds and unfit for resurrection you would reload. You just would. So you were given Health/endurance which made dying possible but easily avoidable. He same is with current health system.

    

   Once you add that kind of resource management, tangible risk/reward it becomes different game entirely. A game I still like, but a game where putting lots of resources into creating and writing companions, developing relationship system is just misguided.

Yeah you're right.

[Phlox]

Just stopping by to express my disapproval of the current system as well.
I too think it's way too similar to Tyranny's oversimplified approach with the general hard cap on the wound limit and getting rid of endurance as an additional strategic factor in managing a character's wellbeing resp. effectiveness in combat.

As far as I'm concerned PoE already has the (near) perfect system that pretty much just needs to be (more or less) copy-pasted over into Deadfire.

[KingDiamond]

 

Resting should only be allowed in certain areas and there should be a finite amount of uses of some kind of 'injury kit' per rest.

 

Basically like Dark souls with bonfires and estus.

Should it though? Dark Souls works but death is part of Dark Souls. Same in XCOM, Darkest Dungeon etc. Problem with IE games is that you don’t really want companions to die. Because they are written companions. They are kinda important. So since KOTOR2 RPGs move away from it because perma death in the kind of RPG is kinda stupid. In BG if your companion was torn to shreds and unfit for resurrection you would reload. You just would. So you were given Health/endurance which made dying possible but easily avoidable. He same is with current health system.

 

Once you add that kind of resource management, tangible risk/reward it becomes different game entirely. A game I still like, but a game where putting lots of resources into creating and writing companions, developing relationship system is just misguided.

 

 

I played BG without reloading when my companion died. It was way more fun than reloading. The thrill you get in combat is awesome especially when fighting hard hitting enemy like dragon. 

[Katarack21]

 

 

Resting should only be allowed in certain areas and there should be a finite amount of uses of some kind of 'injury kit' per rest.

 

Basically like Dark souls with bonfires and estus.

 

Should it though? Dark Souls works but death is part of Dark Souls. Same in XCOM, Darkest Dungeon etc. Problem with IE games is that you don’t really want companions to die. Because they are written companions. They are kinda important. So since KOTOR2 RPGs move away from it because perma death in the kind of RPG is kinda stupid. In BG if your companion was torn to shreds and unfit for resurrection you would reload. You just would. So you were given Health/endurance which made dying possible but easily avoidable. He same is with current health system.

Once you add that kind of resource management, tangible risk/reward it becomes different game entirely. A game I still like, but a game where putting lots of resources into creating and writing companions, developing relationship system is just misguided.

 

I played BG without reloading when my companion died. It was way more fun than reloading. The thrill you get in combat is awesome especially when fighting hard hitting enemy like dragon.

Perhaps you did. Most people did not, because the companions were so important to the game that the loss of one made the game much less fun for most.

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

YOu now can abuse healing without health loss like in PoE. If you can stack enough healing sources it's very hard to kill you and you can totally focus on offense.

 

I also liked the old system better. Wonder what made them change it.

According to a Sawyer post on SA, basically they got a lot of feedback from players who didn't understand the mechanic or got confused by it. Basically every change in PoE 2 is a result of player feedback in some way.

 

I'm kinda ehhh on it. I liked the old system but I like the abuseability of the new system too.

[Boeroer]

Hehe - I agree. I like to break the game, too.

[jaydee.2k]

Sadly they streamlined POE's systems to total casuality. It has almost nothing in common with old cRPGS anymore.

I don't understand why the system got dropped when it finally worked after patch 3.x...

[Silvaren]

Potential holes in new system reminds me of epic raidbosses from Lineage 2. Indestructable tank with healers behind his back just coudn't die during raid. There isn't much healing spells in Deadfire beta, but I guess combining some abilities, special items and other stuff will casue new health system to break or just being exploited.

 

There are ways to prevent it, like for example: make healing abilities to heal large amount of HP instantly and buff small HP recovery over moderate period of time, while this over time bonus would block any other means of heal until it ends. But why bother? It's better just drop new concept and go back to original system. It's great that game mechanics in first Pillars works well with the lore of Eora - Berath's cycle.

 

Old system was much better, especially with addition of wounds. In PoE I always try to push my party to their limits thanks to endurance+health system. I rest only when I know it's too much risk to try another fight.

 

I like wounds in new system. It seems reasonable that characters can be wounded by traps or certain special attacks. Current beta hasn't crafting system at all so we can't make meals to cure the wound during rest. I found only few meals to use while playing beta.

 

Since all abilities are per encounter and health regenerates like old endurance I rarely rest. If I could cook some meals then probably I would sleep only to restore Empower points for hardest fights or to get some bonuses from camping. Isn't it strange for game like Pillars of Eternity?

 

Edit: I like Barring Death's Door spell from PoE. Health + endurance was more strategic.

Edited November 23, 2017 by Silvaren

[Wormerine]

Sadly they streamlined POE's systems to total casuality. It has almost nothing in common with old cRPGS anymore.

I don't understand why the system got dropped when it finally worked after patch 3.x...

To be fair BGs were way more limited than PoE2 even in current version - you pick class or classes, subclasses and a weapon of choice... and that was about it.

[Natures Bounty]

The old health / endurance system was clearly better in my opinion. They should have implemented a cross-class talent though, that lowers your endurance and increases health (would have been great for human, nature and fire godlike race specials).

 

Let's face the developer's dilemma: if you want to sell your game, the average player who starts from scratch has to understand the basics of game mechanics. This means: your game mechanics must not be too complex, or even easy to understand. On the downside, easy to understand often means unbalanced or at least easy-to-break for experienced players. 

 

If you want to develop a game that shines with balanced and interesting game mechanics as well as replayability, it has to be somewhat complex too, because else it is boring. 

 

I wish they would have chosen the path of complexity and balance. Those guys who did not understand PoE 1 mechanics should go and play Diablo....;-)

Edited November 23, 2017 by Natures Bounty

[PangaeaACDC]

For fear of getting myself shot and torn to pieces, I think the current system with health only is quite good at its core. It worked fine for the god amongst gods, after all: Baldur's Gate.

 

I've not played around a lot with combat since I'm on a Linux system, so don't have a clear idea of how harsh the injury system in its current implementation is. However, it seems better to me to stick with the health-only system and fine-tune injuries instead. Perhaps tuning frequency of injuries from traps, a chance to doge it (reflex). Change percentages of health loss, maybe amount of injuries before death (though 4 should be plenty really).

 

I liked the POE1 system too, but I also do recall it took a little to get used to.

 

I'm more worried about the dearth in spells and such, and the flow of combat.

[Wormerine]

For fear of getting myself shot and torn to pieces, I think the current system with health only is quite good at its core. It worked fine for the god amongst gods, after all: Baldur's Gate.

 

I've not played around a lot with combat since I'm on a Linux system, so don't have a clear idea of how harsh the injury system in its current implementation is. However, it seems better to me to stick with the health-only system and fine-tune injuries instead. Perhaps tuning frequency of injuries from traps, a chance to doge it (reflex). Change percentages of health loss, maybe amount of injuries before death (though 4 should be plenty really).

 

I liked the POE1 system too, but I also do recall it took a little to get used to.

 

I'm more worried about the dearth in spells and such, and the flow of combat.

It is quite different as BG as your life regenerates and you spring back to life with an injury after falling in battle. Like many new mechanics it's just different and take getting used to. Doing my second playthrough in beta and resting is non issue. I am halfway through and I rested once. Again, issues with UI and not seeing when someones health is getting low is a bigger issue than system itself.

 

Getting injured by traps is the most annying thing so far, but at least gives traps some role in the game. You can avoid it by saving throw, but if you get hit you get injured. Talking away regenerating health is not really an option. 

 

I doubt many people will hate this system in a long run.

[Silvaren]

I wonder, dev team ever consider adding classic feature from many role playing games - damage treshold? I know that Josh is against insta kill but it's an interesting rule. Maybe it's bad idea because power gamers could learn how to abuse such thing like damage treshold, but it's great and rarely feeling to slay enemy with single strike.

[eisenschwein]

Limiting the amount of injuries to 4 for all character builds while not factoring in, for instance different CON stats still is simplifying/trivializing things quite a bit too much.
Reworking this to be more dynamic and fine-grained (both visually and mechanically) could actually turn out to be THE compromise everybody can live with, if endurance/health is not given another chance.

[demeisen]

​

Limiting the amount of injuries to 4 for all character builds while not factoring in, for instance different CON stats still is simplifying/trivializing things quite a bit too much.
Reworking this to be more dynamic and fine-grained (both visually and mechanically) could actually turn out to be THE compromise everybody can live with, if endurance/health is not given another chance.

 

​Agreed about it being too simplified, and too coarse-grained with only 4 levels.

​

While I'd like the former split health/endurance idea best, ​I think I could be OK with your proposed compromise if either (1) the health pool does not auto-regenerate after combat, or (2) you can gain injuries in normal combat without reaching 0 health.  I'd like injuries to be more fine grained (maybe 8-10 levels?), and any combat damage should confer some risk of injury.  Perhaps there's little injury risk if you stay over 75% health, 50-75% gives you a moderate risk, 25-50% even higher risk, and 0-25% a severe risk.  That makes some RP sense too: the more banged up you get in battle, the higher the risk you have of sustaining a longer term injury.

​

​I really feel combat needs to have some lasting cost to your party, or the game starts to feel too much like I'm playing some Diablo-esque "action RPG".

​

[Wormerine]

​​Agreed about it being too simplified, and too coarse-grained with only 4 levels.

 

 

​

While I'd like the former split health/endurance idea best, ​I think I could be OK with your proposed compromise if either (1) the health pool does not auto-regenerate after combat, or (2) you can gain injuries in normal combat without reaching 0 health.  I'd like injuries to be more fine grained (maybe 8-10 levels?), and any combat damage should confer some risk of injury.  Perhaps there's little injury risk if you stay over 75% health, 50-75% gives you a moderate risk, 25-50% even higher risk, and 0-25% a severe risk.  That makes some RP sense too: the more banged up you get in battle, the higher the risk you have of sustaining a longer term injury.

​

​I really feel combat needs to have some lasting cost to your party, or the game starts to feel too much like I'm playing some Diablo-esque "action RPG".

 

Tyranny did something like that (and that is what the current system seem to get some ideas from.) If you got knocked down you got injury, but you would also get injury if you received too much damange and some special attack could give enemy and injury. I really disliked this system. Unlike PoE health, which is imply a resource, getting an injury in Tyranny always felt bad making your characters less effective and it felt like I had little control over that. At least, currently in PoE2, when I get an injury it feels deserved.

[demeisen]

​

Tyranny did something like that (and that is what the current system seem to get some ideas from.) ... I really disliked this system.

 

Yeah, ​I did too, so I certainly don't want to argue for anything too similar to what it had.  I wanted very much to like Tyranny, and I tried to give it a fair shake, but it always felt too... not sure of the right words... oversimplified?  Streamlined?  Managed?  I think the POE1 system had it all over Tyranny's.

​

​Anyway, my preference still absolutely resides with either a POE1-like split pool, or failing that, a single non-auto-regenerating pool.  But the most important thing for me is that there be long term considerations.  The current injury and per-encounter ability system as it stands doesn't really cut it, IMO.

​

​

[Nixl]

I actually like the wound system, but it does not go nearly far enough in my opinion.  Specifically, it is not punishing enough to be of much consequence to the player in its current form.  As far as I know, a wound only occurs when a character is knocked out or triggers a trap.  With only two sources of wounds the system does not create a lot of pressure for the player to do better, because you only ever get one wound and you can always rest immediately afterwards.   

 

My suggestion would be to allow certain enemy abilities to apply a wound during combat and without the need to first knock out the player.  For example, when the Titan Watcher throws a character, that character would receive a wound.  I do not think every enemy needs the ability to create a wound, just bosses or mini-bosses.  Such a change, in my opinion, would make the wound system an actual consideration in combat, as opposed to a slight inconvenience.  Furthermore, I think such a change would reward proper micro (i.e., positioning, disables, interrupts, etc.). 

 

As I tried to emphasize above, this is just my opinion.  If Obsidian returned to the health/endurance mechanic, I would not mind it, although I think the health/endurance system also was just a mild inconvenience.  Under the current system and the old system, you just hit rest and move on.  

 

Edit:  Another suggestion I have considered is for Priests/Druids to have a high level ability that removes a wound in combat (similar to revive), and for Fighters/Paladins to have a high ability that shrugs off a wound (just being manly).  This would only make sense if bosses/mini-bosses had the ability to apply wounds outside of a knockout.  Furthermore,  this suggestion operates off an assumption that encounters would slowly escalate with more and more abilities that creates wounds.  In my mind, this would add another layer to party management and create the need to deal with wounds stacking up during a fight, as opposed to hitting the rest button after a fight.  

 

Ultimately, I just want a system that rewards micro and party management during a fight.  Currently, there is no micro or party management with just hitting the rest button.  

Edited November 26, 2017 by Nixl

[rothamon81]

I do like the new food-resting stuff which is ultimately the same "save the good ones for the big encounters" that you wanted to get rid of so desperately by making everything else "per encounter". But I don't like the new health system, not because it is bad but because the old one was simply better although weird. It is an abstract mechanic that made sense gameplay wise even if it wasnt very realistic (though auto-heal is even less realistic). It was certainly unique and I can't even begin to understand why someone wouldn't "get" it, I always thought it obvious, 0 health= you die.

 

Couldn't you please rethink your decision and stay unique?

[Dr <3]

I actually like both system atm, the only thing is that the new current system is too exploitable... Without any kind of high lvl abilities or particular magic item a lifegiver druid could be immortal ( and make immortal also the rest of the party) for at least 40-50 secs. when we will have the whole instruments in our end i bet you will need just 1 healing specialist in your party to be unkillable