Druids & Priests now pick spells individually

[Enoch]

This seemed a significant enough change to merit its own thread.  From the SawyerTumblr:

 

 

 

Q: Will priests and druids now be selecting spells on level ups instead of getting the full spell level set when reaching the appropriate power level?

A: Yes.  Priests and druids (and all classes) now select individual abilities/spells/powers/talents as they advance.

 

 

[Gromnir]

 

This seemed a significant enough change to merit its own thread.  From the SawyerTumblr:

 

 

 

Q: Will priests and druids now be selecting spells on level ups instead of getting the full spell level set when reaching the appropriate power level?

 

A: Yes.  Priests and druids (and all classes) now select individual abilities/spells/powers/talents as they advance.

 

 

considering how limiting the "school" prohibitions is for a few priests, this change strikes us as particular harsh.  be sure you choose... wisely.

 

 

am gonna wait for the beta, but am foreseeing how it will be quite easy to accidental build a terrible priest, which should be counter to the design philosophy.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited September 22, 2017 by Gromnir

[MortyTheGobbo]

I like it. Priests and druids getting all of their spells was a D&D-ism without any real purpose. It does mean that their spells will have to be less of a haphazard grab-bag of situational effects, though.

[Insidous]

Since all classes getting trinquets (no idea how that's spelled) I bet priests and druids will have something similar to a grimoire. Probably a good thing, as it was quite overwhelming getting like 8 spells at once and the wizard system felt better. 

[Enoch]

Eh, for my part, using the same spells in every single encounter is boring.  One of the worst aspects of Pillars 1 Ciphers, imposed on even more classes.  And I liked the situational-ness of the spells.  Druids were fun in part because you could analyze your opponents and pick the best option from a wide variety of spells attacking different defenses and DR types. 

[MaxQuest]

am gonna wait for the beta, but am foreseeing how it will be quite easy to accidental build a terrible priest, which should be counter to the design philosophy.

With the amount of spells priest and druids can learn now, for a new player there is indeed such possibility.

 

---

In PoE1 priests and druids of max level could learn/cast 52-53 spells.

For comparisson In PoE2 there are 62 druid spells (up to rank 9), or 53 spells (up to rank 7). Out of these they can learn on levelup only up to 20 spells (according to this progression). But they will also need some abilities and talents, so it's even less.

 

Probably a good thing, as it was quite overwhelming getting like 8 spells at once and the wizard system felt better.

Overwhelming? Hmm, cannot relate.

Sure, it was about 30-40% of spells that I used 90% of the time. But it was nice to have few situational solutions at hand as well.

Edited September 22, 2017 by MaxQuest

[injurai]

Eh, for my part, using the same spells in every single encounter is boring.  One of the worst aspects of Pillars 1 Ciphers, imposed on even more classes.  And I liked the situational-ness of the spells.  Druids were fun in part because you could analyze your opponents and pick the best option from a wide variety of spells attacking different defenses and DR types. 

 

Ideally there would be a much larger pool of abilities to choose from from the start.

[MaxQuest]

Ideally there would be a much larger pool of abilities to choose from from the start.

Hmm, but those would be level 1 spells, no?

[Gromnir]

if not for the harsh school prohibition, the change would make sense... sorta.  wizards weren't functional much different from priests in poe except at low levels.  fill up your spell book(s) with spells purchased or copied from fallen wizards has poe 1 wizards having access to virtual every spell in the game... just like priests.   yeah, priests instant knowing spells at level up were a big advantage early in the game, but were a non-factor mid-to-late.

 

also, similar to d&d, poe wizards had larger spell catalogs to choose from.  in ad&d, or even d&d 3e, the complete priest catalog were including dozens o' spells. arcane users got spell catalogs numbering hundreds. were similar in poe.  wizard had 14 1st level spells possible... oh which our aloth always had all 14 by endgame. wizard could know 15 2nd level.  again, aloth always knew between 14 and 15.  however, the poe priest catalog were significant smaller with only 9 first and second level spells.  the old d&d system actual made a kinda sense given the built-in limit on the potential spells available to the respective casters.  sadly, poe carried over the busted system with a paucity o priest spells.  will priests get more potential spells in deadfire.  if not, why not? 

 

unfortunately, particular for a new priest player uninterested in metagaming, things is gonna be rough... 'special w/o a generalist option such as wizards can choose. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[injurai]

 

Ideally there would be a much larger pool of abilities to choose from from the start.

Hmm, but those would be level 1 spells, no?

 

I don't mean the start as in level 1, I mean the class is built with more abilities so you can pick a larger amount at each level. I'll be honest, some of the classes I'd be happy if they had double the potential abilities in total to choose from.

[limaxophobiacq]

For PoE 1 with this system there'd be so many must-have spells that after taking those there would be very little actual choice for these picks. You wouldn't make a priest without devotions or shining beacond so that would be your 4th level spells done. For druid 5 you have insect plague and relentless storm and done.

[Enoch]

For PoE 1 with this system there'd be so many must-have spells that after taking those there would be very little actual choice for these picks. You wouldn't make a priest without devotions or shining beacond so that would be your 4th level spells done. For druid 5 you have insect plague and relentless storm and done.

Now consider Gromnir's point about the school exclusions in this context-- what if you're a Skaenite who can't do Inspiration spells (which, I'm guessing, includes Devotions) or a Waelite who can't do Punishment (probably Shining Beacon's school)?  It works at other levels, too:  Eothasians who can't learn Armor of Faith or Circle of Protection; Magranites who can't learn Consecrated Ground or Revive the Fallen...

 

There probably isn't going to be one Priest who can get all of the "clear best option" spells.  (Unless, as I suspect might be the case, Xoti's unique subclass is a generalist.)

Edited September 22, 2017 by Enoch

[limaxophobiacq]

OTOH you get acces to non-priest spells, so while Waelite might remove Shining Beacon, she would get Confusion at level 5 which is definately a must pick if its anything like in PoE 1 (and might mean wealites wanna go int/dex/perception over int/might/dex, in which case I have to redo my PoE priest playthrough because respec is heresy).

 

The specific spells that are must-picks might change but if the balance of the spells is anything like in PoE 1 there's gonna be a lot of spells you'd never take and some you feel you basically have to unless you're doing a really unorthodox build. While not everyone would be able to take Shining Beacon + DoTF on priest 4, no one would ever take Barring Deaths Door or Restore Major Stamina or any highly situational spells really but always focus on the generally applicable universally powerfull spells.

Edited September 22, 2017 by limaxophobiacq

[MortyTheGobbo]

In PoE, priests had a motley assortment of spells, but there was a few must-haves that they cast regularly. That was honestly pretty boring. We know buffs and debuffs are going to work differently in Deadfire, so hopefully priest spells are rebalanced to make more wriggle room in how you build a priest.

[rjshae]

It'd be good if one could "pray" for a different set of priest spells when spending a camp supply.

[Gromnir]

OTOH you get acces to non-priest spells, so while Waelite might remove Shining Beacon, she would get Confusion at level 5 which is definately a must pick if its anything like in PoE 1 (and might mean wealites wanna go int/dex/perception over int/might/dex, in which case I have to redo my PoE priest playthrough because respec is heresy).

 

none of which helps the skaenite, who will miss out on the other inspiration essentials as well.  doesn't much help the priest o' eothas who can't cast essential protection spells either.  nice for priests of wael.

 

and 'course this kinda situation sorta breeds the bg2 sorcerer issue, but worse.  with few exceptions, most bg2 sorcerers ended up with near identical spell lists, 'cause as you note, there is gonna be relative no-brainer spell choices at each level.  unfortunately, as we are talking priests and not bg2 arcane spell casters, the spell catalog will likely be smaller and our deadfire priests will also need deal with the additional burden o' prohibitions on spell schools.  pool o' spells is even smaller. we very much run the risk o' seeing the exact opposite o' what obsidian intended with deadfire as is fair to predict a homogenization o' priestly spell choices.  priests o' eothas and wael and skaen is, 'cause of very predictable spell choices, likely to become more similar rather than less.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps perhaps easiest way to look at this is the following:

 

in poe, Gromnir could play a stabby-stabby, kill-kill priest o' skaen who wielded stilettos and/or clubs and wreaked horrible destruction 'pon enemies with our weapons and spells.  in deadfire, if we wanna play anything other than a rouge-like priest, am gonna be sacrificing many o' the priest's most effective spells for nothing in return.

 

if not wanna add godless as we suggested elsewhere, then perhaps allow an option for all priests to choose to forgo the enumerated advantages and disadvantages o' a deity choice.  a skaen rejecting advantages/disadvantages would still benefit or suffer from disposition standing when using holy radiance, but no spell school prohibitions or access to rogue abilities.  just a thought.

Edited September 22, 2017 by Gromnir

[morhilane]

If that "pick spells as you advance" means selecting 1 class spells instead of a class ability or general talent*(?), then these casters (priest/druid), instead of having all their tools in every fight like they did in POE, will be very focused in POE2.

 

That means ~2 spells per (spell)level (max of 20). I doubt the rest of the class abilities/talents are useless, so few will actually go for 20 spells. That will lead to either spamming the same few spells or leaving the character on weapon auto-attacks because they don't have spells useful for that fight (last bit affect support more than damage builds).

 

That also means that in POE2, the most versatile spellcaster in-combat is going to be the one that is shuffling through none-customizable grimoires.

 

By the way, this change means the Chanter should get less phrases and invocations and the Cipher less powers. I guess we now know why the party size is 5, that's for the second support character needed to cover all the support and healing required.

 

 

Saying that, it's a great way of knowing which of the spells/abilities are crap, nobody will use them...

 

 

 

*I'm looking at the video and it seems it's only class abilities/spells. So kinda less competition, but still the Druid has 62 spells + 15 class abilities and you are limited to 20 of them...

Edited September 22, 2017 by morhilane

[PneumaticFire]

Slightly deviating in topic, I'm kind of glad that Pillars didn't include the Sorcerer pool of spells system for wizards/mages, as I personally felt in the infinity engine games and how it was implemented, it was a bit spammy and undermined the more cerebral/strategic nature of arcane magic and the wizard class (at least in its pure offensive capabilities if played as such, relegating it to a generalist backup or played in other roles instead). 

 

However, with divine magic I think perhaps this flexible pool system of spells may work well, less variety but more output, and maybe thematically would work better with a caster who 'calls to their God' so to speak, to channel their powers (even if fuelled by personal belief).  

 

Despite the game being lacklustre overall, Baldur's Gate Siege of Dragonspear experimented with this system with their implementation of the Shaman class, and the NPC M'Khiln Grubdoubler.   This would also further distinguish the arcane from the divine systems of casting, however I can also see how this may also overpower the Druid class with its more offensive focused spells to the priest class.

 

Just a thought.

Edited September 23, 2017 by PneumaticFire

[hilfazer]

 For druid 5 you have insect plague and relentless storm and done.

And Embrace the Earth-Talon.

 

But it can be taken at higher level if high level druid spells will keep sucking.

[Sannom]

if not for the harsh school prohibition, the change would make sense... sorta.  wizards weren't functional much different from priests in poe except at low levels.  fill up your spell book(s) with spells purchased or copied from fallen wizards has poe 1 wizards having access to virtual every spell in the game... just like priests.   yeah, priests instant knowing spells at level up were a big advantage early in the game, but were a non-factor mid-to-late.

Wizards were still limited to four spells of each level by combat though, unless they switched grimoires. Priests and druids could use their whole spell arsenal in every fight (what I call a Favored Soul without the drawbacks).

 

Slightly deviating in topic, I'm kind of glad that Pillars didn't include the Sorcerer pool of spells system for wizards/mages, as I personally felt in the infinity engine games and how it was implemented, it was a bit spammy and undermined the more cerebral/strategic nature of arcane magic and the wizard class (at least in its pure offensive capabilities if played as such, relegating it to a generalist backup or played in other roles instead).

Pillars' wizard was already a D&D Sorcerer, but stronger. With those changes in PoE 2, they've basically become Sorcerers though.

Edited September 23, 2017 by Sannom

[Gromnir]

 

if not for the harsh school prohibition, the change would make sense... sorta.  wizards weren't functional much different from priests in poe except at low levels.  fill up your spell book(s) with spells purchased or copied from fallen wizards has poe 1 wizards having access to virtual every spell in the game... just like priests.   yeah, priests instant knowing spells at level up were a big advantage early in the game, but were a non-factor mid-to-late.

Wizards were still limited to four spells of each level by combat though, unless they switched grimoires. Priests and druids could use their whole spell arsenal in every fight (what I call a Favored Soul without the drawbacks).

 

 

 

and if a similar approach were used for deadfire priests, as long as a generalist were also included, we would be more than satisfied, 'cause such limitations were not particular onerous.  add some equivalent o' switch spell books after or even during combat but have access to four spells per level?  sure, when facing new and unexplored areas the practical priestly spell lead-out would be a bit general, but after first encounter with spirits or vessels or ogre druids or bugs, being able to switch to a more specialized 4 spell menu is a virtual non handicap... as it were for wizards in poe.  more than wizards and even druids, the vast majority o' priest spells is situational useful, particular the prayer against _______ group.  many priest spells in deadfire will simply become bloat (and as already noted, the priest catalog is already small compared to wizards Plus there is the mandatory school prohibition to limit further) as no reasonable build is gonna make use o' such limited applicable spells when forced to make hard choices.  is gonna natural lead to homogenization.  unfortunate. counter to design goals. bad.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[MaxQuest]

with a 5-man party limit, and no generalist/godless priest announced, our single-class priest choice appears to have become more difficult.

and if a similar approach were used for deadfire priests, as long as a generalist were also included, we would be more than satisfied

This made me think, what if there was a faithless priest subclass (or heretic/atheist/whatever) that loses the ability to cast Prayers and Symbols, but in return:

- v1. can learn fighter's active abilities.

- v2. can learn monk abilities and passives that do not use "wound" keyword.

- v3. automatically learns Transcending Suffering.

- v4. ?

 

And if disposition for Radiance is a problem, the bonus could:

- use 2xrational

- be computed automatically as for NPC priests

- use user selected as the new favored dispositions

- just stay zero

Edited September 23, 2017 by MaxQuest

[PugPug]

They had so many niche spells in POE1 I have to wonder if we will all be picking the same handful of more broadly useful ones. Seriously like 4 out of every 5 were highly situational and not even all that necessary in their situations.

[Kadayko]

Did I understand right that now all classes choose spells OR talents and the two became the same category? 

[draego]

Did I understand right that now all classes choose spells OR talents and the two became the same category? 

 

It looks like right now all abilities/talents/spells are selected as one per level and they are all equivalent in the since that you select them one per level with no alternating like in POE1