Politics - Jason X

[Elerond]

They say that you know that you live in free country if you can insult its institutions and symbols without fear of punishment or other forms of retaliation.

[injurai]

They say that you know that you live in free country if you can insult its institutions and symbols without fear of punishment or other forms of retaliation.

 

Unless they do that to convince people they live in a free society

 

[Guard Dog]

"Why does no one take me seriously?"

 

*posts info wars videos*

 

 

Anyway, I do understand why someone would want to ban the pledge. It does seem very scary, at least from my perspective. To a much lesser degree, the same principle applies for the flag. It just has a taste of indoctrination to it.

But maybe that's just me.

 

Where I am not willing to make any compromises is in the banning of religious items from schools. There is no place for religion inside formal education (outside of human sciences); these are two things that are strictly separated and must be conveyed to the children as strictly separated. So no crosses or religious symbols of any kind anywhere; and no teachers who wear religious clothing or somehow carry religious items. Teachers must not show their religious beliefs (similarly to how they must not shown their political beliefs). And, consequentially, no "God" in the pledge (if any pledge at all). I think that should be easliky agreeable on. There is no religious freedom if a child is pushed into a certain religion.

You lost me here. It is one thing to no have religious indoctrination in a public school. It's another to restrict religious expression by the people in the school. If a teacher or student is wearing a cross, or star of david, or whatever it is hardly the same thing as pushing religion on a student of fellow faculty member. Certainly it is not the State's job to teach religious doctrine, but when you suggest suppressing the free practice and expression you've gone too far. Now you ARE telling them what to think.

 

Besides, you know the old saying; As long as there are tests there will always be prayer in school

[injurai]

Besides, you know the old saying; As long as there are tests there will always be prayer in school

 

I don't, but that's a good one.

[IndiraLightfoot]

In part, I've grown up in countries where religion, prayers and hymns were officially banned in the educational system. I vaguely recall hymns and prayers in what you may call my pre-school years. However, my parental and grandparental generations, they have plenty of memories of this, plus Sunday Church and sunday bests, sunday school, as well as strict physical reprimands and punishment in the educational system in the name of God. There's no doubt in my mind that the removal of the official role of religion in schools has drastically affected people's practice of religion overall.

There was never any ban of religious symbols, though. Still, in the scope of a few decades, most people stopped going to Church, sunday school disappeared, almost nobody read the Bible. Parishes lost their sociocultural roles and meanings. People began to drop specific church taxes. Basically, any affected religious institutions lost their authority, and the majority of people never looked back. They became more atheist, and most religious practices became private matters.

 

So, it is to be expected that any parties with a vested interest will resist any kind of development like the one I outlined above.

 

Interestingly, the same goes for nationalism in schools. Quite a few of the nationalistic practices were removed in these countries in the same era, and this led to a significant reduction of nationalism and, indeed, over time, the flag itself became nearly devoid of meaning. Patriotism suffered as a result. Thus, nationalist politicians want to uphold as much nationalism as is humanly possible in schools, because they are well aware of what is at stake. Their precious symbols run the risk of getting deflated or even dissolved under conditions where you slacken nationalistic rituals.

 

It is in this perspective, I think Trump is best regarded. He sees himself and his institution as a bastion of nationalism and "proper" religious values. If cracks appear, he immediately fears some kind of aethist anarchist/nihilist/socialist dystopia. Ironically, after having discussed this with lots of friends and family of all ages and political affiliations, they all regard this kind of secular society as a place where individuals enjoy perhaps the greatest freedom so far. So, liberal proponents of freedom has much to gain from institutions unburdened by religion and nationalism (the latter can still go on, but more individualistically and privately).

 

Just some reflections of mine.  

Edited September 27, 2017 by IndiraLightfoot

[SonicMage117]

Nevermind.

Edited September 27, 2017 by SonicMage117

[SonicMage117]

In part, I've grown up in countries where religion, prayers and hymns were officially banned in the educational system. I vaguely recall hymns and prayers in what you may call my pre-school years. However, my parental and grandparental generations, they have plenty of memories of this, plus Sunday Church and sunday bests, sunday school, as well as strict physical reprimands and punishment in the educational system in the name of God. There's no doubt in my mind that the removal of the official role of religion in schools has drastically affected people's practice of religion overall.

There was never any ban of religious symbols, though. Still, in the scope of a few decades, most people stopped going to Church, sunday school disappeared, almost nobody read the Bible. Parishes lost their sociocultural roles and meanings. People began to drop specific church taxes. Basically, any affected religious institutions lost their authority, and the majority of people never looked back. They became more atheist, and most religious practices became private matters.

 

So, it is to be expected that any parties with a vested interest will resist any kind of development like the one I outlined above.

 

Interestingly, the same goes for nationalism in schools. Quite a few of the nationalistic practices were removed in these countries in the same era, and this led to a siginifcant reduction of nationalism and, indeed, over time, the flag itself became nearly devoid of meaning. Patriotism suffered as a result. Thus, nationalist politicians want to uphold as much nationalism as is humanly possible in schools, because they are well aware of what is at stake. Their precious symbols run the risk of getting deflated or even dissolved under conditions where you slacken nationalistic rituals.

 

It is in this perspective, I think Trump is best regarded. He sees himself and his institution as a bastion of nationalism and "proper" religious values. If cracks appear, he immediately fears some kind of aethist anarchist/nihilist/socialist dystopia. Ironically, after having discussed this with lots of friends and family of all ages and political affiliations, they all regard this kind of society as a place where individuals enjoy perhaps the greatest freedom so far. So, liberal proponents of freedom has much to gain from institutions unburdened by religion and nationalism (the latter can still go on, but more individualistically and privately).

 

Just some reflections of mine.

I grew up in a school where you would get detention if you missed the pledge of allegiance, you were ostracized for not standing and placing your hand over your heart for the anthem, etc etc. But after learning that my sister's kids attend a school where there are literally more transgender and fluid-gender students than normal boys and girls I had to come to accept that fact that America has gone that way. So they may as well not even have male/female labels on their bathrooms.

 

The problem is that Americans are unknowingly sacrificing freedoms at the expense of others or maybe they know and are just ignorant. There can never be total freedom if some freedom from others has to be taken to gain that freedom.

Edited September 27, 2017 by SonicMage117

[injurai]

That reminds me. Missing the pledge was considered being late to class, and the big deal was that you were late, not that you missed the pledge. At least that's how I remember it. This was in elementary school so this was when half of being on-time was just your parents getting you to school. But here is the real kicker, if class was mid pledge. You waited outside the classroom until they finished, if you weren't near your classroom you were encouraged to find the nearest flag to pledge at instead of missing it all together.

[ShadySands]

You guys are overlooking the main problem

 

The pledge just flows better with "under god" in it

 

 

edit- removed my critique of modern music

Edited September 27, 2017 by ShadySands

[SonicMage117]

That reminds me. Missing the pledge was considered being late to class, and the big deal was that you were late, not that you missed the pledge. At least that's how I remember it. This was in elementary school so this was when half of being on-time was just your parents getting you to school. But here is the real kicker, if class was mid pledge. You waited outside the classroom until they finished, if you weren't near your classroom you were encouraged to find the nearest flag to pledge at instead of missing it all together.

For us it was the opposite, it was 10 minutes after the bell rang in the morning and if you were outside then the teachers wanted you to at least barge in and try to finish with the class. For us it was elementary and middle school but I can't remember if it was in High School.

 

Also we had a day called "See ya at the pole" where Christians in the school could come and pray for an hour or something, it was treated honorably. Now that God and Christianity is getting fought to get taken out of schools, everything is changing, or everything has changed since I've graduated.

[ShadySands]

Where are you from? Is that just a Texas thing? Or a bible belt thing?

 

Makes my rural country upbringing seem ultra progressive

[SonicMage117]

Where are you from? Is that just a Texas thing? Or a bible belt thing?

 

Makes my rural country upbringing seem ultra progressive

I grew up in Michigan, no it's not a Bible belt thing. Things were just different in the 90's, back then God was a huge respect in schools in general but I'm talking general public schools in the 90's, I'm sure 80's and 70's were just as respectful and fearing of the name of "God" if not more. It probably didn't really start changing until right after my time, since then the country has been devolving. I mean, as I said before, we're having one sided decisions made for the sake of comfort but stripping freedom as it were. I'm confused to why students can't be free to take a Bible into school or wear a cross necklace if someone else can wear a pentagram, etc.

[Gfted1]

The Pledge of Allegiance was definately a thing in my early school years but I cant remember doing it in high school....but maybe we did? I skipped first period, a lot. This was in the 80's so even then I dont recall it being a thing anymore. Huh, I should ask my kid if they do it.

[ShadySands]

 

Where are you from? Is that just a Texas thing? Or a bible belt thing?

 

Makes my rural country upbringing seem ultra progressive

I grew up in Michigan, no it's not a Bible belt thing. Things were just different in the 90's, back then God was a huge respect in schools in general but I'm talking general public schools in the 90's, I'm sure 80's and 70's were just as respectful and fearing of the name of "God" if not more. It probably didn't really start changing until right after my time, since then the country has been devolving. I mean, as I said before, we're having one sided decisions made for the sake of comfort but stripping freedom as it were. I'm confused to why students can't be free to take a Bible into school or wear a cross necklace if someone else can wear a pentagram, etc.

I'm pretty sure I'm older than you and this is just weird to me but on the flip side it let's me get a better understanding of where you are coming from. I dunno, I mean my very small town had like 5 7 churches but outside of the pledge and various optional (and I think outside of regular school hours) bible/prayer groups religion was absent from school... I guess unless you happened to go to one of the religious private schools but those were in "town."

 

Edit- I think we may have stopped doing the pledge in middle school or junior high as it was called when I attended but I'm almost certain we didn't do it high school either.

Edited September 27, 2017 by ShadySands

[Gfted1]

K, got a return text. Yes, they still do it. An announcement is made over the speakers to "rise and recite" the pledge. You are allowed to sit down and not participate, but they still do it. I was glad to hear that.

[Malcador]

All we had to deal with was the daily Hail Mary and occasional masses. Joys of Catholic school.

[Hurlshort]

 

 

I'm confused to why students can't be free to take a Bible into school or wear a cross necklace if someone else can wear a pentagram, etc.

 

I think you are just falling for clickbait journalism. I teach in liberal California and you can wear a cross, we have a Christian club on campus, and we do the pledge every day.

 

But really all this stuff varies from school to school, district to district, and state to state. The great war on Christianity and Country is vastly overstated.

[Volourn]

"The great war on Christianity and Country is vastly overstated."

 

Nah. No, it isn't. You said it yourself. It varies. So because your district allows those things doesn't mean others do. And, this is school we are talking about.  Schools are some of the biggest Nazis in  he world who love to ban things for all sorts of stypid reasons. This includes things like CARTWHEELS. CARTWHEELS. CARTWHEELS.

[Gfted1]

We're through the looking glass:

 

NSFW

 

Legends Football League Shades NFL.

 

[injurai]

The war on Christianity is overstated. The war on Christmas decorations is not.

 

Round the clock Christmas advertising yet non-Christians won't let Christians even have their pagan traditions? Hmph!

[redneckdevil]

**** me, don't talk about Christmas. Soon round the clock Christmas songs are gonna be playing at work.

[SonicMage117]

There are literally a million reasons why a Christian can rightfully engage in any traditional American holiday without it contesting their sacred beliefs or hindering their faith and walk with God but I've never heard of decorations being the big argument if Christmas. I always hear it's actually that the non-Christian community wants to replace the phrase "Merry Christmas" with "Happy Holidays" simply because "Christmas" contains "Christ" and that might offend some.

 

There's a great video which explains well of those who want to replace "Christmas" with "Holiday"

 

 

I mean, I am a Christian but I enjoy Halloween simply because I'm a fan of horror, I enjoy Christmas because I'm a fan of winter season - we get snow here luckily and I also love the lights. I am not a perfect Christian but will not feel guilty about something which does not strike any fear into me, it's hard to escape going into a store for things I need to live and see/enjoy these things anyway.

 

If we judge Christians as cultists for engaging into traditional American holidays, I wonder how much more the average uneducated non-Christian unknowingly participates in an everyday Christian activity, making them casual hypocrites. For example, too many times have I seen aethiests bow their heads or read from the Bible at a funeral. Men who swear there isnt God does not exist will pray at the bedside of their dying loved ones. Non-Christians marry in churches... and such the list goes on, even the words "Jesus", "Christ" or "God" is used in vain daily by people when other religions' heroes are not. It's indeed a bit strange.

 

I'm not defending the embrace of American Christinity, because you are absolutely right. The American Church has been morphed into a place where the five senses can overtake what once was. I'm simply saying the sword goes both way, both for Christianity and non-Christians alike... even though I'm guessing someone will fight me on this one way or the other -it's meant as no offesnse honestly.

[injurai]

I was being a bit facetious with regards to Christmas. Personally I'm fine with people trying to secularize the holidays, at least as far as it's handled in public space. I also think people that get offended over people saying "Marry Christmas" can get bent.

[Malcador]

I've never actually heard any non-Christian have an issue with people saying Merry Christmas. Usually it's people moaning about Happy Holidays - which works as a good catchall, versus :

 

[SonicMage117]

It was a pretty big thing a few years ago, but I don't think Christians ever whined about the phrase Happy Holidays... after all, they're not trying to interject or squeeze their way into schools, work, etc (It was always Christmas vacation and Merry Christmas until non-Christians attempted to fight it). So no point really in Christians complaining about it, also the fact that church thrives in both phrases Merry Christmas/Happy Holidays as Easter weekend and Christmas is the most visited church services in America.