Request: Non-binary player character

[Quillon]

Now let's take a look at this, this might give an insight how people in the Vailian Republics treat people who are "different". Of course the Vailian Republics is just one part of Eora, and may not speak for the whole of it.

 

 

To my opinion that speaks VOLUMES. Now, the question is, do people who have a male body but insist they are a woman and vice versa count as " being different"?

People who expect other people to magically know that they would prefer to be referred to as "they"?

Does that qualify as "being different"?

 

Then the above might give a hint on how people in the Vailian Republics could react on that.

 

Pallegina is by law regarded as neither woman nor man in the Vailian Republics. So there, you have it, your third non-binary option in the Vailian Republics.

Pallegina tells you how people like her are treated.

 

Also have a look at this post by Josh Sawyer:

 

Apparently Obs created a whole new race for the issue and named it effin GODLIKE... OP should be ashamed of themselves for asking more

[JerekKruger]

Apparently Obs created a whole new race for the issue and named it effin GODLIKE... OP should be ashamed of themselves for asking more

 

Again, to be fair we only know for certain that this applies in the Vailian Republics. As far as I can recall we don't have any information for how godlike's are viewed in other parts of Eora.

[Quillon]

 

Apparently Obs created a whole new race for the issue and named it effin GODLIKE... OP should be ashamed of themselves for asking more

 

Again, to be fair we only know for certain that this applies in the Vailian Republics. As far as I can recall we don't have any information for how godlike's are viewed in other parts of Eora.

 

 

We don't need to know how every part of the world views them atm. We can safely assume its a problematic issue overall(supported by Sawyer quote above). Its not even current year equivalent time in Eora, maybe all godlikes are bastards in their father's eyes 

[Valmy]

You could have your sex be 'other' in Ultima III. We will never return to the inclusive and enlightened days of 1983.

[KDubya]

I'd have to say that this has been a pretty good troll.  When the OP has all of one post and does not participate in their own thread my 'troll-dar' goes off.

 

Considering how poorly Obsidian implemented Godlike in PoE I'd not want them to compound this by adding in 'non-binary genders', whatever that means.

 

Godlike were described as being hated, feared, worshipped and other fairly extreme reactions but in game there's not a thing different if you are godlike or a dwarf, everybody treats you the same. Throw in half or more of the backer NPC were godlikes and it was a pretty jarring immersion breaker. Obsidian is not willing to devote the time and effort required to completley tailor all reactions and conversations to your character's race, the chance that they could adequately do so for some fringe group of self deluded people is ludicrous.

 

I, and I hope most of us, want Obsidian to design us a game and game world that:

1. Follows its own game world logic such that everything fits and makes sense based upon the established rules of the game world.
2. Gives us a deep intelligent story that reads like a good novel.
3. Gives us diverse classes that allow for a multitude of character build that can all be effective if constructed properly.
4. Gives us a game world where our choices have an effect on how the game plays out and are meaningful
5. Gives us a tactically challenging combat system based on real time with pause that rewards knowledge of the various mechanics and their  implementation.

Nowhere in this list am I looking for social commentary that will appease SJW. Their tyranny of the minority needs to stop.

[algroth]

I'm almost willing to request this just so I can see more people crying about how the SJWs are oppressing them.

Edited August 26, 2017 by algroth

[JerekKruger]

Can I suggest we don't start an argument about SJWs. That way lies naught but madness.

[algroth]

Can I suggest we don't start an argument about SJWs. That way lies naught but madness.

 

Sure. Still, while I don't agree with the OP's request I still think it's a topic worth discussing, not least because there *are* ways these aspects could be treated that wouldn't just act as enforced tokenism. The rest of the thread has already offered a few ways. Maybe the OP is trolling but by and large this has been a decent thread so far with many points that don't just limit themselves to "SJW getting their jammy hands on muh gaem". I don't see why bring them up in the first place is all.

Edited August 26, 2017 by algroth

[Karkarov]

I am confused why this topic is still ongoing when everyone basically keeps saying the same thing, the OP has left it, and no one is really in favor of the suggestion.

Also my Aloth will not be able to explore these topics, he got over himself and started making his own choices so Isylmr is bye bye.  Truthfully I never saw that as a "awakened" two souls thing, it felt more like Aloth just suffered from serious trauma so created a fake personality to deal with those issues for him.  By addressing that and coming to terms with why this second person existed in the first place he becomes a stronger character.  So it was a no brainer for me.

[Soaren]

I'd have to say that this has been a pretty good troll.  When the OP has all of one post and does not participate in their own thread my 'troll-dar' goes off.

 

Considering how poorly Obsidian implemented Godlike in PoE I'd not want them to compound this by adding in 'non-binary genders', whatever that means.

 

Godlike were described as being hated, feared, worshipped and other fairly extreme reactions but in game there's not a thing different if you are godlike or a dwarf, everybody treats you the same. Throw in half or more of the backer NPC were godlikes and it was a pretty jarring immersion breaker. Obsidian is not willing to devote the time and effort required to completley tailor all reactions and conversations to your character's race, the chance that they could adequately do so for some fringe group of self deluded people is ludicrous.

 

I, and I hope most of us, want Obsidian to design us a game and game world that:

1. Follows its own game world logic such that everything fits and makes sense based upon the established rules of the game world.
2. Gives us a deep intelligent story that reads like a good novel.
3. Gives us diverse classes that allow for a multitude of character build that can all be effective if constructed properly.
4. Gives us a game world where our choices have an effect on how the game plays out and are meaningful
5. Gives us a tactically challenging combat system based on real time with pause that rewards knowledge of the various mechanics and their  implementation.

Nowhere in this list am I looking for social commentary that will appease SJW. Their tyranny of the minority needs to stop.

 

I wanted to give this a 'thumbs up' (so I guess I'm doing it in a roundabout way), minus that one or two politically/socially charged all-too-general statement. Because eh, simple black and white judgments never work too well mixed in like that; regardless of one's actual gripes or experiences. 

[nstgc]

First, more on topic, I don't have a problem with the request except for practicality. Plenty of devs seem to think adding more than one gender is too much effort. Putting in every gender under the Sun is ridiculous. For that matter, making a diverse cast of NPCs that is actually representative of a population, especially if we are trying to project a modern population on a Renaissance era's, is simply absurd. And I'm removed from.

 

Related. I don't believe in God. Any god, or mystical magical talky thing in the clouds/ocean/breakfast cereal. Haven't since I was in highschool. You want to talk about a maligned group of people? Consider this. 3.8% of the US population is LBGT, and there are 7 openly LBGTs in the US Congress. Compare this to 11% who don't believe in God. We have 0 representatives in congress.

 

These are raw numbers. Not some subjective account of one kid getting bullied more than another, but rather real life ``it actually makes a difference in the world" facts. Another fun fact, related to the the bullying angle, is that suicide among non-believes is higher than any other group. This has actually held pretty constant through the ages, where Protestants and Jews in Roman Catholic dominated regions were at highest risk of suicide. Not because because they lack a moral objection, a popular explanation among the conservatives of today, to ending their own miserable lives, but because they lacked the social connections and where at the highest risk of being ostracized.

 

 

 

Now, I'm not suggesting, have never and will never, that the devs include a character who doesn't hear voices talking him him/her/sher/whatever. Frankly, that's ridiculous. I don't know why some groups seem to be able to cope with knowing their request is ridiculous and keep it to themselves, while others feel the need to get in other people's faces. It isn't that having a diverse cast of characters is wrong, or anything, just highly impractical. This is especially true in a setting like PoE, due to the time period it takes place in. It would take quite a bit more effort to craft a reasonable character that fits in. And even then it would end up as a token character, simply because of how small of a population such individuals would make up. You see? 

 

edit: Before anyone else mentions it, I am aware that the murder rate among trans individuals is the highest among any population. I also am aware that Atheists and the like blend in a hell of a lot easier than someone with a man's body in a woman's dress. I'm sure that if you couldn't hide your religion, non-believers would be right up there vying for the #1 spot.

Edited August 28, 2017 by nstgc

[HooAmEye]

Well, if you are asking for representation, then you're in luck. PoE is pretty much the most aetheistic video game setting out there given that it is more or less an adaptation of "Thus Spoke Zarathustra". Also, I have never ever seen someone mocked or beaten for a lack of faith in the western world. 

[JerekKruger]

Well, if you are asking for representation, then you're in luck. PoE is pretty much the most aetheistic video game setting out there given that it is more or less an adaptation of "Thus Spoke Zarathustra".

 

It's not really atheistic at all though, it only appears that way to those who associate being a theist with believing in a monotheistic creator deity. Take the Greek gods for example: they didn't create the world, they didn't create humanity and they themselves were created by others. The Eoran gods are similar, the only difference is that they were created by the kith rather than being descended (ultimately) from the sky and the earth.

 

Moreover the fact that the Eoran gods were created by the Engwithans doesn't mean there isn't a creator deity in the Eoran universe. The existence of a creator god is no more or less likely than it is in our own world, so even if you do insist on a creator god there could be one. In fact I think the emergence of a monotheistic religion in opposition to the worship of the "false" Engwithan gods could be an interesting development for the franchise, particularly in light of the revelation that the gods were created by kith.

 

Also, I have never ever seen someone mocked or beaten for a lack of faith in the western world.

 

Outside of the US it's very rare, although it certainly happens within certain ethnic groups. In large parts of the US admitting to being an atheist will get you shunned and excluded from local society. Also, as nstgc says, forget a career in politics if you want to be openly atheist: it consistently surveys below being Jewish or homosexual as a negative factor affecting who people vote for.

Edited August 28, 2017 by JerekKruger

[ThatUndeadLegacy]

I see the Op has run away. 

[nstgc]

... Also, I have never ever seen someone mocked or beaten for a lack of faith in the western world. 

See, this is anecdotal evidence. I even brought up the FACT that murder rates among trans individuals was highest among any population. And, as I said, they stand out quite a bit more.

 

So here is an anecdote for you. I remember quite clearly once walking through the student union at my university having a discussion about Theism with someone who was like minded. I shut up as soon as I got in the building, but the other guy kept talking. There murder in the eyes of those around us. People got quiet and were furious, focusing on the two of us. If it had been night, and we had been on the street, the two of us would have been beaten senseless (as in knocked out, waking up in the hospital). And that's on a collage campus, a place known for being liberal.

 

edit: Ah. Here is another one for the ``my parents don't love me anymore" crowd. Once, I was in the car with my father, and it came up that I hadn't been to church in three years. That's all. He still thinks I'm Christian, and I'm fine letting him think that. However, simply not having been to church in three years was sufficiently shocking for him to jerk his wholly body to the side, nearly crashing the car. He is the best driver I know. Even with one eye (lost to cancer a few months ago) he is best driver I know, and this was years ago. So, yeah. Religion. It's a thing that people get upset over, but unlike LGBT, we don't show it. Well, a lot of lesbians don't show it. My university, as I was told, was Gay Mecca for the region, so we had quite a few, but the lesbians kept it to themselves.

 

edit2: In any case, this isn't meant to be a ``woe to the Atheist" post, nor was the other one. My point is just that there are plenty of people in this world who are marginalized and maligned. Why we would give special treatment to one group and not all others, especially to a very small group, is beyond me. I just wanted to point out that I'm not removed from the plight of being different. It's not my fault I don't hear voices, just as it isn't the fault of some people were born a sex that don't feel is their's.

Edited August 28, 2017 by nstgc

[EbonyBetty]

I think trans or non-binary options  should be implemented. Representation is important, it's a reflection of how society sees you; which can be a good or a bad thing. If there's little to no representation of your identity then what does that tell a person? For me, I often look at how a video game represents black people or WoC and I also wonder if I can play as a black female. Scientific studies have proved that a player is much likely to empathize with an avatar that allies with their identity (lemme know if you want a link to the study.)  I don't think OP is asking for much tbh, I mean Sims 4 was able to do it and so did Saints Row 3.

[JerekKruger]

lemme know if you want a link to the study. 

 

I'd be interested in it.

[Sakai]

If there's little to no representation of your identity then what does that tell a person?

That it was impractical to add representation of a tiny minority of people based on the amount of work it would take. And that comparing an RPG based on a late medieval period with Sims is somewhat silly. Verisimilitude is important, and if you start adding modern issues to a setting they do not belong, it can quickly destroy the players immersion in that setting. And btw, i still don't have an answer on what is non-binary in the first place, and why you need it when he/her doesn't imply anything other than your genitals. 

[Gfted1]

Couple of things we can try to remember:

 

1) Why does this thread exist? Because other posters find it interesting to discuss. Just in case you weren't aware, every time a poster "wonders aloud" about the thread, the thread goes back to the top.

2) The OP must be a troll! Maybe they are simply lurking and reading these replies? Maybe calling people trolls stifles conversation?

3) Non-binary is not a "modern topic" in life or gaming. If your "verisimilitude" would be destroyed by choosing such an option, it is highly recommended that you do not choose that option. Personally, my "verisimilitude" is destroyed by only being able to carry 3 camping supplies so I would have to use a mod to enjoy it.

[Amentep]

To be fair, its also silly to argue that a fantasy setting couldn't have modern issues since its a fantasy, development of the world would be vastly different from ours (although, to be fair a setting that knows that people are reincarnated and that people could be either gender through their lives would realistically never hold onto the same kind of thoughts about gender and sexual identity as our world.)

[Fluffle]

So I just stumbled upon this in the game. My char, Seth, is a MALE Death Godlike. But I am NOT in the Vailian Republics as far as I know

Just as a note, my party is not referred to on the previous slide. So "them" cannot mean my party.

 

[Sakai]

3) Non-binary is not a "modern topic" in life or gaming. If your "verisimilitude" would be destroyed by choosing such an option, it is highly recommended that you do not choose that option. Personally, my "verisimilitude" is destroyed by only being able to carry 3 camping supplies so I would have to use a mod to enjoy it.

It's already been discussed what issues that option would bring. From how people are supposed to adress PC, to the way society in general views that sort of thing. It is far more than just something you choose when creating your character. But even if it were just that, neither you nor anyone else even seem to be able to define what non-binary is, yet you want it to be added anyway? 

 

To be fair, its also silly to argue that a fantasy setting couldn't have modern issues since its a fantasy, development of the world would be vastly different from ours (although, to be fair a setting that knows that people are reincarnated and that people could be either gender through their lives would realistically never hold onto the same kind of thoughts about gender and sexual identity as our world.)

Never said it couldn't, but it's not a free for all either where you can add whatever you want without consequence. 

Edited August 28, 2017 by Sakai

[Fluffle]

To be fair, its also silly to argue that a fantasy setting couldn't have modern issues since its a fantasy, development of the world would be vastly different from ours (although, to be fair a setting that knows that people are reincarnated and that people could be either gender through their lives would realistically never hold onto the same kind of thoughts about gender and sexual identity as our world.)

 

YES! So much this. That is what I feel is being overlooked so many times in discussions about representation in games, fantasy or scifi-settings.

 

So many people simply infer the whole representation and equality issues from our world one by one to a fantasy or sci-fi setting with (complete) disregard of the story/lore of that setting.

 

And THAT is what I really dislike.

 

As I have said so many times already this topic should be explored in alignment with the lore of Eora, WITHOUT the assumption that the societies on Eora treat their LGBT citizen and the representation of them THE VERY SAME way as we here on Earth in present or as we did in the past.

 

And in my opinion the developers should give us (much) more information on this, otherwise it will never stop that people simply assume Eora treats this whole subject THE VERY SAME way as we do (or did) on Earth.

Edited August 28, 2017 by Fluffle

[Gfted1]

Ultima 3

 

1983! Probably before a lot of posters were even alive!

[Lord_Mord]

 

It's already been discussed what issues that option would bring.

 

To that point I was a bit sceptical about that topic, but your annoying and pointless answer convinced me that this option should indeed be there.

 

 

From how people are supposed to adress PC, to the way society in general views that sort of thing.

 

They don't. The option would just affect the scripted sequences and other stuff that does not require special knowledge from characters in the game. It is easy to implement, makes sense and though everyone can be adressed the way they want to be adressed.

 

 

 It is far more than just something you choose when creating your character.

 

It is adding a third option to a variable that is already in use.

 

 

But even if it were just that, neither you nor anyone else even seem to be able to define what non-binary is, yet you want it to be added anyway?

 

Is that your concern? Personally I don't give a **** about your opinion and I assume lots of people here think the same way. You can't even defend it, this "opinion". Yet you post here. Isn't that the same thing? No it's worse. It's like going into a vegetarian restaurant, taking a seat at an occupied table and telling someone that you don't like salad. Noone cares! Cry elsewhere. And do it quietly.