Politics 2017 part 4

[Gfted1]

I seriously doubt its a 1:1 ratio, dollars spent vs quality. It boggles my mind when its assumed "it works in a country with 30 million, it should work exactly the same in a country of 300 million." Sure, maybe if we raise our taxes through the roof like they did. Our healthcare cost are out of control but I don't think ACA was the answer to controlling those costs. Its probably only accelerated the race to the bottom by adding 10's of millions of people that will consume far more than they contribute.

[Ben No.3]

How to Healthcare: Cuba

 

"Total health expenditure as % of GDP: 7.3

 

In 1976, Cuba's healthcare program was enshrined in Article 50 of the revised Cuban constitution which states "Everyone has the right to health protection and care. The state guarantees this right by providing free medical and hospital care by means of the installations of the rural medical service network, polyclinics, hospitals, preventative and specialized treatment centers; by providing free dental care; by promoting the health publicity campaigns, health education, regular medical examinations, general vaccinations and other measures to prevent the outbreak of disease. All the population cooperates in these activities and plans through the social and mass organizations."

 

Cuba's doctor to patient ratio grew significantly in the latter half of the 20th century, from 9.2 doctors per 10,000 inhabitants in 1958, to 58.2 per 10,000 in 1999. In 2005, Cuba had 627 physicians and 94 dentists per 100,000 population. That year the United States had 225 physicians and 54 dentists per 100,000 population; there was no data for Latin America as a region, but the Central American isthmus had 123 physicians and 30 dentists per 100,000.

 

In the 1960s the government implemented a program of almost universal vaccinations. This helped eradicate many contagious diseases including polio and rubella, though some diseases increased during the period of economic hardship of the 1990s, such as tuberculosis, hepatitis and chicken pox. Other campaigns included a program to reduce the infant mortality rate in 1970 directed at maternal and prenatal care. As of 2012, infant mortality in Cuba had fallen to 4.83 deaths per 1,000 live births compared with 6.0 for the United States and just behind Canada with 4.8.

 

While preventive medical care, diagnostic tests and medication for hospitalized patients are free, some aspects of healthcare are paid for by the patient. Items which are paid by patients who can afford it are: drugs prescribed on an outpatient basis, hearing, dental, and orthopedic processes, wheelchairs and crutches. When a patient can obtain these items at state stores, prices tend to be low as these items are subsidized by the state. For patients on a low-income, these items are free of charge."

 

 

 

AND MOST EMBARRASSINGLY FOR THE WEST: "Cuba provides more medical personnel to the developing world than all the G8 countries combined"

 

 

Now I just took that of Wikipedia. But still... very interesting

[Leferd]

 

Well, costs have doubled since then, so I'd imagine that is a factor.

Have they double because of ACA?

 

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-the-gop-bill-could-change-health-care-in-8-charts/?ex_cid=538twitter

 

 

 

 

[Chilloutman]

Hey Ben,

 

how are you enjoying your Turkey enrichment now in Germany?

[Gfted1]

To make sure I'm understanding what I'm looking at, regarding those graphs:

 

1) ACA has had little to no effect on the rate of deductible increase?

2) Why will ACA revisions increase the number of uninsured. Will ACA no longer be mandatory?

2A) Why does ACA level off at 10 million uninsured?

[Wrath of Dagon]

1) Costs went up, but it's arguable due to what. ACA didn't really do anything to control costs.

2) Under the repeal, subsidies would be greatly diminished, thus fewer people would be able to afford it.

3) Some people won't pay anything no matter how much you subsidize them. In states that refused to expand Medicaid, a lot wouldn't make enough to qualify for ACA while not having the Medicaid option either. Also illegal aliens are theoretically not eligible.

[Ben No.3]

Hey Ben,

 

how are you enjoying your Turkey enrichment now in Germany?

Before I answer, question: I suppose you mean the debate over wether the Turkish government should be able to propagate their reform here?

[Hurlshort]

I seriously doubt its a 1:1 ratio, dollars spent vs quality. It boggles my mind when its assumed "it works in a country with 30 million, it should work exactly the same in a country of 300 million." Sure, maybe if we raise our taxes through the roof like they did. Our healthcare cost are out of control but I don't think ACA was the answer to controlling those costs. Its probably only accelerated the race to the bottom by adding 10's of millions of people that will consume far more than they contribute.

 

That's what I used to think, but then I found out we are actually paying more than all of those countries in taxes towards healthcare costs.

[Wrath of Dagon]

The government is out to kill you: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/03/21/usda-must-rethink-cyanide-bombs-that-injured-boy-killed-pets-lawmaker-says.html

[Malcador]

 

From one of my American friends..

 

 

 

And without [Affordable Care Act] I was uninsurable thanks to my breathing issues. When they repeal it, I will again be uninsurable or dumped into the "high risk pool" which provide coverage for everything expect the breathing issues at a higher cost. So the $400 for 30 days med that I take so I can breathe will out of pocket as will all visits to my specialist ($175 to walk in the door), the tests they do check my lung capacity ($350) that they require when I visit said specialist, and anything else they deem as "related" to my pre-existing condition.

This meme is not an exaggeration for me. Taking away my access to healthcare will result in my death.

Fact, you are more likely to die waiting in UK for your affordable healthcare than find christian in Luton xD

Well there are a lot of Anglicans...

[Chilloutman]

 

Hey Ben,

 

how are you enjoying your Turkey enrichment now in Germany?

Before I answer, question: I suppose you mean the debate over wether the Turkish government should be able to propagate their reform here?

 

Well that and those marches of pro Erdogan and Kurds. Also I read that Volker Bouffier actually grown some balls and told Turkey that its enough - it took ages tho

[Elerond]

Speaking about Turkish enrichment

 

http://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2017/03/21/520183360/at-trumps-d-c-hotel-a-u-s-turkey-relations-conference-stirs-up-ethics-questions?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=politics&utm_medium=social&utm_term=nprnews

 

 

At Trump's D.C. Hotel, A U.S.-Turkey Relations Conference Stirs Up Ethics Questions

 

 

This spring, the Trump International Hotel in Washington, D.C., will host a three-day event co-hosted by a business group.

 

That's not unusual. But here's what is: The group's chair founded the company that paid President Trump's former national security adviser, Michael Flynn, for lobbying work that may have benefited the Turkish government.

 

This mashup of money involving Turks, Flynn and Trump has concerned ethics experts who worry about a "pay-to-play" atmosphere in Washington. Here are the basics:

 

Alptekin also is the founder of Inovo BV, a company that paid Flynn's consulting firm, Flynn Intel Group, $530,000 for lobbying work that may have benefited the Turkish government.

 

Ruya Eichelberger, a spokesperson for the American Turkish Council, says the dates when the organization wanted to hold the conference this year weren't open at the Ritz-Carlton. They did their first walk-through at the Trump hotel in 2015, she says, while it was under construction, and booked it in October 2016. The previous annual conference took place at the Ritz-Carlton from Oct. 30 to Nov. 1, 2016.

 

But ethics experts have concerns about special interest groups, lobbyists and foreign governments bringing their business to Trump, who has a dual role as president and innkeeper. These critics point to the U.S. Constitution's Emoluments Clause, which prohibits presidents from accepting benefits from foreign powers.

Edited March 21, 2017 by Elerond

[Chilloutman]

Speaking about Turkish enrichment

 

http://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2017/03/21/520183360/at-trumps-d-c-hotel-a-u-s-turkey-relations-conference-stirs-up-ethics-questions?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=politics&utm_medium=social&utm_term=nprnews

 

 

At Trump's D.C. Hotel, A U.S.-Turkey Relations Conference Stirs Up Ethics Questions

 

 

This spring, the Trump International Hotel in Washington, D.C., will host a three-day event co-hosted by a business group.

 

That's not unusual. But here's what is: The group's chair founded the company that paid President Trump's former national security adviser, Michael Flynn, for lobbying work that may have benefited the Turkish government.

 

This mashup of money involving Turks, Flynn and Trump has concerned ethics experts who worry about a "pay-to-play" atmosphere in Washington. Here are the basics:

 

Alptekin also is the founder of Inovo BV, a company that paid Flynn's consulting firm, Flynn Intel Group, $530,000 for lobbying work that may have benefited the Turkish government.

 

Ruya Eichelberger, a spokesperson for the American Turkish Council, says the dates when the organization wanted to hold the conference this year weren't open at the Ritz-Carlton. They did their first walk-through at the Trump hotel in 2015, she says, while it was under construction, and booked it in October 2016. The previous annual conference took place at the Ritz-Carlton from Oct. 30 to Nov. 1, 2016.

 

But ethics experts have concerns about special interest groups, lobbyists and foreign governments bringing their business to Trump, who has a dual role as president and innkeeper. These critics point to the U.S. Constitution's Emoluments Clause, which prohibits presidents from accepting benefits from foreign powers.

ehh well, so someone is concerned about 'ethics' of previously business mans advisor paying for lobbing while Hillary already being part of government is getting paid by Saudi is not seen as unethical? oh cmon...

[Gorgon]

I'm completely over medical insurance as a thing. It is a failed experiment. 

In fact, the insurance industry is the overriding factor why the US cannot shift to efficient universal health care. They are the middle man no one wants. If you want to maximize efficiency and really run health care like the army, as in the government hires and maybe even pays for the training of doctors in return for x amount of years on comparatively crappy pay, you can't have any parasites in the process. The logistics of supplying the entire US population simply do not allow for it.

[Ben No.3]

 

 

Hey Ben,

 

how are you enjoying your Turkey enrichment now in Germany?

Before I answer, question: I suppose you mean the debate over wether the Turkish government should be able to propagate their reform here?

Well that and those marches of pro Erdogan and Kurds. Also I read that Volker Bouffier actually grown some balls and told Turkey that its enough - it took ages tho

My stance is first of all to let them speak. I do not support Erdogan, however, I do see this as an issue of free speech. Governments of other countries need to be able to express their opinions and yes, also members of forgein governments. However, I also expect our politicians to take a clear stance against it.

 

But I don't want to see a limit am free speech or political campaigns merely because it doesn't fit EXACTLY our own opinion

[Chilloutman]

 

 

 

Hey Ben,

 

how are you enjoying your Turkey enrichment now in Germany?

Before I answer, question: I suppose you mean the debate over wether the Turkish government should be able to propagate their reform here?

 

Well that and those marches of pro Erdogan and Kurds. Also I read that Volker Bouffier actually grown some balls and told Turkey that its enough - it took ages tho

 

My stance is first of all to let them speak. I do not support Erdogan, however, I do see this as an issue of free speech. Governments of other countries need to be able to express their opinions and yes, also members of forgein governments. However, I also expect our politicians to take a clear stance against it.

 

But I don't want to see a limit am free speech or political campaigns merely because it doesn't fit EXACTLY our own opinion

 

Well, laws of country needs to apply only for its own citizens which Turkey government is obviously are not. And frankly I don't see that big of a deal when they have speech there, but rather marching of thousands of 'Germans' waving Turkey flag and carrying photos of almost (so far) dictator

 

Can you imagine how 3 millions of Russians marching through Washington waving Russian flags and pictures of Putin? xD

[Hurlshort]

Every time the FBI director has to refer to a 'tweet', I fear we grow weaker as a nation. 

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 

 

 

 

Hey Ben,how are you enjoying your Turkey enrichment now in Germany?

Before I answer, question: I suppose you mean the debate over wether the Turkish government should be able to propagate their reform here?

Well that and those marches of pro Erdogan and Kurds. Also I read that Volker Bouffier actually grown some balls and told Turkey that its enough - it took ages tho

My stance is first of all to let them speak. I do not support Erdogan, however, I do see this as an issue of free speech. Governments of other countries need to be able to express their opinions and yes, also members of forgein governments. However, I also expect our politicians to take a clear stance against it.But I don't want to see a limit am free speech or political campaigns merely because it doesn't fit EXACTLY our own opinion

Well, laws of country needs to apply only for its own citizens which Turkey government is obviously are not. And frankly I don't see that big of a deal when they have speech there, but rather marching of thousands of 'Germans' waving Turkey flag and carrying photos of almost (so far) dictatorCan you imagine how 3 millions of Russians marching through Washington waving Russian flags and pictures of Putin? xD

I'd be amazed if 3 million people got off their ass for anything in burgerland.

[Gfted1]

HA, that's where you would be wrong! We had 5m at the parade when the Cubs won the World Series.

[HoonDing]

Erdogan is right you know. EU are SJW NAzis.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

HA, that's where you would be wrong! We had 5m at the parade when the Cubs won the World Series.

That just proves it takes the stars to align for millions of Americans to get up.

[Zoraptor]

 

I seriously doubt its a 1:1 ratio, dollars spent vs quality. It boggles my mind when its assumed "it works in a country with 30 million, it should work exactly the same in a country of 300 million." Sure, maybe if we raise our taxes through the roof like they did. Our healthcare cost are out of control but I don't think ACA was the answer to controlling those costs. Its probably only accelerated the race to the bottom by adding 10's of millions of people that will consume far more than they contribute.

 

That's what I used to think, but then I found out we are actually paying more than all of those countries in taxes towards healthcare costs.

 

 

About 70% more in total costs as proportion of GDP/c than the EU as a whole, and even more than that as an absolute value (well, absolute value normalised via PPP). The economic/ tax raising argument doesn't really hold water as the costs aren't even close, and the quality of healthcare provided- as a whole, since if money's no concern healthcare can be superb quality in the US- is also inferior for that extra cost. Size arguments also don't hold much water, generally the larger the system the more efficient it is rather than the reverse.

 

The fundamental problem is that profit motive doesn't work for healthcare, because the minimum cost model for a health company is to simply not treat as many sick people as possible.

[Gfted1]

Size arguments also don't hold much water, generally the larger the system the more efficient it is rather than the reverse.

Can you provide a link to a US sized UHC? Id be interested to read up on this.

[Elerond]

 

 

 

Speaking about Turkish enrichment

 

http://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2017/03/21/520183360/at-trumps-d-c-hotel-a-u-s-turkey-relations-conference-stirs-up-ethics-questions?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=politics&utm_medium=social&utm_term=nprnews

 

 

At Trump's D.C. Hotel, A U.S.-Turkey Relations Conference Stirs Up Ethics Questions

 

 

This spring, the Trump International Hotel in Washington, D.C., will host a three-day event co-hosted by a business group.

 

That's not unusual. But here's what is: The group's chair founded the company that paid President Trump's former national security adviser, Michael Flynn, for lobbying work that may have benefited the Turkish government.

 

This mashup of money involving Turks, Flynn and Trump has concerned ethics experts who worry about a "pay-to-play" atmosphere in Washington. Here are the basics:

 

Alptekin also is the founder of Inovo BV, a company that paid Flynn's consulting firm, Flynn Intel Group, $530,000 for lobbying work that may have benefited the Turkish government.

 

Ruya Eichelberger, a spokesperson for the American Turkish Council, says the dates when the organization wanted to hold the conference this year weren't open at the Ritz-Carlton. They did their first walk-through at the Trump hotel in 2015, she says, while it was under construction, and booked it in October 2016. The previous annual conference took place at the Ritz-Carlton from Oct. 30 to Nov. 1, 2016.

 

But ethics experts have concerns about special interest groups, lobbyists and foreign governments bringing their business to Trump, who has a dual role as president and innkeeper. These critics point to the U.S. Constitution's Emoluments Clause, which prohibits presidents from accepting benefits from foreign powers.

ehh well, so someone is concerned about 'ethics' of previously business mans advisor paying for lobbing while Hillary already being part of government is getting paid by Saudi is not seen as unethical? oh cmon...

 

 

You mean that they are concerned of private businesses that current president has with foreign power.

Edited March 21, 2017 by Elerond

[Zoraptor]

 

Size arguments also don't hold much water, generally the larger the system the more efficient it is rather than the reverse.

Can you provide a link to a US sized UHC? Id be interested to read up on this.

 

 

No, but then there aren't any 300 million population countries except the US since the closest in population is Indonesia, an entire UK population away.

 

There are plenty of countries with similar or lower GDP/c to the US with UHC though, and the limiting factor ought to be available cash, not size. UHC seems to work fine for countries from the size of, say, Japan to Luxembourg- about a 250 fold population range- and gives a qualitatively better (to population as a whole) and cheaper result so I'd suggest that any argument that the US is a special case due to its size would require evidence of why its size specifically makes it a special case.

 

Obviously the US is a special case relative to UHC countries, due to it having a significantly different and established system, the question is more whether it has to have that system as UHC wouldn't work there or whether the US system evolved to be inefficient/ 'broken'.

 

The size argument is certainly general case, but there's no evidence of larger socialised health care systems being less efficient than small ones right up to Japan's size, rather the reverse since despite having an aged population Japan's system is cheaper per capita than most others.