A Reqeust for a walk toggle this Time

[Joral]

 

So dissent with your opinion and pet issue is trolling?

 

You're assuming it's just as easy as adding a hotkey. K. Being honest, I don't know the resources required it would take to properly implement a walk feature, but knowing what I know of the software industry and having followed RPG development for more years than I want to admit...It ain't as easy as you think it is.

 

It would be cool to be able to walk, but it's not a game breaker, not is it a high demand or high concept feature central to gameplay. If they can get to it, great. But it's still C-level at best.

 

 

No I assumed trolling due to the fact you did not come in and comment that you are not interested in the feature, or think it useless. You immediately stated that  the developers should not listen to any of us who want the feature, and then immediately stated how much you love big head mode.

[Leferd]

No I assumed trolling due to the fact you did not come in and comment that you are not interested in the feature, or think it useless. You immediately stated that  the developers should not listen to any of us who want the feature, and then immediately stated how much you love big head mode.

 

My dissent was implied for the specific reasons that I wrote in my statement: 

 

I sincerely hope that Josh, Adam, and the producers continue to believe that a healthy majority of Eternity players are ambivalent about this issue and that it shouldn't take priority over more important programming, animation, UI Art, and QA tasks and should remain a C-level priority.

 

PS

 

Anyone who doesn't appreciate the awesomeness that is Big Head mode probably doesn't like the 90's and NBA games, and so therefore can't be my friend. Cuz that's my jam.

 

And everyone relax with the Big Head slander. Leaving it in the game was a slam dunk.

 

 

Thanks, Josh.

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/66570-big-head-mode-is-in/?p=1473046

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/66570-big-head-mode-is-in/?p=1474602

Edited March 2, 2017 by Leferd

[Cerebro83]

I love the "priority and time" argument...

 

Yes, there are more crucial things that are more important, but it IS as easy as to slap a hotkey to walking and make it accessible to the player, because a walking toggle is already in the game - used by several cut scenes as compleCCity stated. It has been modded into POE1 and the code used for this would fit on a single Post-It note. Problem is (or was) that POE1 is difficult to mod on a "code level" and every patch overrides the changes.

Edited March 2, 2017 by Cerebro83

[Leferd]

I love the "priority and time" argument...

 

Yes, there are more crucial things that are more important, but it IS as easy as to slap a hotkey to walking and make it accessible to the player, because a walking toggle is already in the game - used by several cut scenes as compleCCity stated. It has been modded into POE1 and the code used for this would fit on a single Post-It note. Problem is (or was) that POE1 is difficult to mod on a "code level" and every patch overrides the changes.

 

Cool.

[meschert]

We're all on the same team here.     

 

Team honest-to-eora, building-a-beautiful-story-driven-RPG-by-people-who-live-it-care-for-it-and-give-a-sh*t, aka team-obsidian.

 

/love

[Osvir]

 

I sincerely hope that Josh, Adam, and the producers continue to believe that a healthy majority of Eternity players are ambivalent about this issue and that it shouldn't take priority over more important programming, animation, UI Art, and QA tasks and should remain a C-level priority.

 

Like the dodge animations that are already in the game, for example

 

 

Dodging is visual feedback and clarity for the Player during combat. Of course, it isn't necessary because floating text "Miss!" works, or in the combat log (that feels like a Twitch stream chat window, i.e. you need to pause n' scroll a lot in the log to keep up with it).

 

​Walking is only for roleplaying in pretty much any game out there. Only game I can think of where they found good usage of it is in Assassin's Creed (Hiding/Blending). It's also mostly useful in slow escort missions or missions where you need to tail someone (Which are also some of the most frustrating missions because the PC walks faster than everybody else *shakes fist*).

 

​I remember in one game (a JRPG, don't remember which one), some random NPC I talked to commented something like "You're the kid that runs around everywhere?" and ever since then (I was a kid) it made me think, "Wouldn't it have been cool if there'd been a reaction if I hadn't been running?". Because, you're sticking out like a sore thumb in a crowd. If I was running/jogging in my hood everywhere (everywhere​), people would start to recognize me as "That's the dumb weird kid running around everywhere" wouldn't they?

 

​Anyways, what are some good uses for "Walking", except Roleplaying?

​- Stealth: Combined with ordinary cloth (<- Condition), you'd blend in in a crowd and that assassin looking for you won't approach you and try to kill you. Instead, you might just walk past him. Surveillance, recon, and infiltration. You're in the Guardroom, dressed as a Guard trying to listen in on a conversation. In the region you choose to walk around, if you run around Guards will start to get suspicious or wonder why you're in such a hurry everywhere.

​- Wilderness: Wild beasts won't just instantly attack you, but instead just observe you (I'm thinking Giants and Mammoths from Skyrim, who just observe you and attack if you get closer). Fast movements may upset or make them feel threatened, Running = They attack.

​- Cities: ???

 

[Joral]

 

 

 

 

Dodging is visual feedback and clarity for the Player during combat. Of course, it isn't necessary because floating text "Miss!" works, or in the combat log (that feels like a Twitch stream chat window, i.e. you need to pause n' scroll a lot in the log to keep up with it).

 

​Walking is only for roleplaying in pretty much any game out there. Only game I can think of where they found good usage of it is in Assassin's Creed (Hiding/Blending). It's also mostly useful in slow escort missions or missions where you need to tail someone (Which are also some of the most frustrating missions because the PC walks faster than everybody else *shakes fist*).

 

​I remember in one game (a JRPG, don't remember which one), some random NPC I talked to commented something like "You're the kid that runs around everywhere?" and ever since then (I was a kid) it made me think, "Wouldn't it have been cool if there'd been a reaction if I hadn't been running?". Because, you're sticking out like a sore thumb in a crowd. If I was running/jogging in my hood everywhere (everywhere​), people would start to recognize me as "That's the dumb weird kid running around everywhere" wouldn't they?

 

​Anyways, what are some good uses for "Walking", except Roleplaying?

​- Stealth: Combined with ordinary cloth (<- Condition), you'd blend in in a crowd and that assassin looking for you won't approach you and try to kill you. Instead, you might just walk past him. Surveillance, recon, and infiltration. You're in the Guardroom, dressed as a Guard trying to listen in on a conversation. In the region you choose to walk around, if you run around Guards will start to get suspicious or wonder why you're in such a hurry everywhere.

​- Wilderness: Wild beasts won't just instantly attack you, but instead just observe you (I'm thinking Giants and Mammoths from Skyrim, who just observe you and attack if you get closer). Fast movements may upset or make them feel threatened, Running = They attack.

​- Cities: ???

 

 

some more examples

 

Cities: Running would put guards on "Alert" status making it harder to do anything illegal or even in certain areas call in reinforcements and begin following the player.

 

Or as you said with wilderness maybe it would force comabt from certain missions instead of talking to you they assume you are going to attack and react thusly.

It is hard to come up with alot of reasons and put them in a list. But as you also said it IS a Roleplaying Game and as such being given the option to roleplay with or without other effects is in and of itself part of the immersion. Add to the fact the animations are already in just means giving the player a hotkey-bind to walk outside of cutscenes. there does not have to be a design made for the UI just a bind option in the options-keybind section.

[Osvir]

some more examples

 

Cities: Running would put guards on "Alert" status making it harder to do anything illegal or even in certain areas call in reinforcements and begin following the player.

Good idea! I was thinking something similar as well:

1) Stealth meter rising to red almost instantly when running

2) Staying in red for a duration of time after running

 

E.g. when you enter Scout Mode after running it'd show red.

[eselle28]

Cities: Running would put guards on "Alert" status making it harder to do anything illegal or even in certain areas call in reinforcements and begin following the player.

 

Yikes. I am otherwise all for a walk toggle, even though I wouldn't use it myself, because it seems like something that would make a portion of players happier in the game without making it any less fun for people who don't care to use the feature. This suggestion is basically the opposite of that. People who enjoy RPing walking aren't all that likely to even experience being followed by guards because they're inclined to walk anyway. The people who have to deal with it are going to be the power gamers and the big group of people who RP a bit but aren't total sticklers for realism, and it's just going to make them angry that the game is forcing them to stare twice as long at the screen to get anything done in a city area. If the walk toggle is to be mechanically useful rather than just an appearance difference, it seems like it should be something that gives players who want to use it an experience they'll find fun rather than making players who don't use it do something they find boring.

[blotter]

Generally speaking, it'd make sense for traps and hidden items to be harder to detect while running.

 

That said, I agree that introducing a whole bunch of punitive mechanics for running under inappropriate circumstances is just going to piss a lot of people off for no appreciable gain.

[Joral]

 

Cities: Running would put guards on "Alert" status making it harder to do anything illegal or even in certain areas call in reinforcements and begin following the player.

 

Yikes. I am otherwise all for a walk toggle, even though I wouldn't use it myself, because it seems like something that would make a portion of players happier in the game without making it any less fun for people who don't care to use the feature. This suggestion is basically the opposite of that. People who enjoy RPing walking aren't all that likely to even experience being followed by guards because they're inclined to walk anyway. The people who have to deal with it are going to be the power gamers and the big group of people who RP a bit but aren't total sticklers for realism, and it's just going to make them angry that the game is forcing them to stare twice as long at the screen to get anything done in a city area. If the walk toggle is to be mechanically useful rather than just an appearance difference, it seems like it should be something that gives players who want to use it an experience they'll find fun rather than making players who don't use it do something they find boring.

 

 

As I said he wanted some suggestions , I just want the Walk toggle for immersion and roleplay.

[Osvir]

Me too! (Walk Toggle, for immersion) I'm simply brainstorming~

[Hertzila]

I'm all for a mechanics-neutral walk/run toggle. As noted, it would make both sides happy, likely without any significant dev time and without necessating a UI redo since it could just be a button toggle.

 

However, start introducing mechanical changes, and I'm voting no. I understand if the stealth mode would force me to walk anyway, but needing to walk to spot traps or to stop guards from harassing me? No thanks. There's no real gain there, other than annoying people by forcing them to go slower. I'm one of the guys who just want to get where I'm going already. Even fast mode has felt too slow on a few occasions. Please don't make it necessary to go even slower.

If Pillars 2 were a proper explicit stealth game, I would be all for a mechanically significant walk toggle. For a generalist CRPG? Nope.

Edited March 3, 2017 by Hertzila

[Osvir]

Haha, unless... Walk Mode as a Difficulty Option xD

 

- "Expert"

- "Trial of Iron"

- "Wending Way" or "Step Out" (Stealth mechanics get more difficult/realistic, Walking/Running dependent, Traps only seen in either Scout- or Walk Mode)

 

Edit: Calling it now, Pillars 3 will be in White that Wends and we'll get Walk Toggle (Wend = Move slowly towards a specified location)

Edited March 3, 2017 by Osvir

[oddrheia]

As many above mentioned, the main problem with tying walking to game mechanics is that a good portion of people will hate it. For example, if devs divorce spotting secrets from mechanics and sneaking, and make it a perception check with bonus from walking  - we would have a close approximation of detection mode from IE games, and a lot of unhappy players who do not want to be forced to use it.

 

It really is the best of both worlds to implement it mechanics free. That way it won't impose on anyone's playstyle.

Edited March 3, 2017 by oddrheia

[Karkarov]

Here is the thing, I am going to break some real world business analysis on you for a hot second.

You are a company so your goal is always one thing, profit, AKA: money.  How do you get money?  By making a product your customer wants to buy, and you do that by making features/functions of your product that are desirable to your customer.  So where does walk toggle come in?  Here we go...

Everything you do with your product requires a number of resources that all come down to what we like to call cost.  Let's say the cost of the walk toggle is 10 work hours.  Trust me it is more than that, A LOT more.  That 10 hours costs say... 1000 dollars, again it would cost a ton more than this in reality.  So it costs 1000 dollars to put this thing in game.  Who needs this thing in game?  What percentage of my customers will care that I made this thing happen?

With the walk toggle I feel safe in saying it is say... 5% of customers.  Actually probably less than that.

So the question isn't just cost, now it has become "What else can I do for 1000 dollars that will benefit more than 5% of my customers?"  As long as there is any answer to that question putting in the walk toggle is a poor use of resources, and it is that simple.

Do you understand why the walk toggle isn't going to happen/is not a real issue to Obsidian now?

Edited March 4, 2017 by Karkarov

[Joral]

Here is the thing, I am going to break some real world business analysis on you for a hot second.

 

You are a company so your goal is always one thing, profit, AKA: money.  How do you get money?  By making a product your customer wants to buy, and you do that by making features/functions of your product that are desirable to your customer.  So where does walk toggle come in?  Here we go...

 

Everything you do with your product requires a number of resources that all come down to what we like to call cost.  Let's say the cost of the walk toggle is 10 work hours.  Trust me it is more than that, A LOT more.  That 10 hours costs say... 1000 dollars, again it would cost a ton more than this in reality.  So it costs 1000 dollars to put this thing in game.  Who needs this thing in game?  What percentage of my customers will care that I made this thing happen?

 

With the walk toggle I feel safe in saying it is say... 5% of customers.  Actually probably less than that.

 

So the question isn't just cost, now it has become "What else can I do for 1000 dollars that will benefit more than 5% of my customers?"  As long as there is any answer to that question putting in the walk toggle is a poor use of resources, and it is that simple.

 

Do you understand why the walk toggle isn't going to happen/is not a real issue to Obsidian now?

 

And that is your opinion. Though you seem to be forgetting also from a business perspective that this is a kickstarter/backer project and that those who backed said project and funded its over 4mil budget, also have a right to request features. The fact it is a feature that you personally don't seem to want/like (going by the tone of your post) does not mean it is a feature others would dislike to see in the game. IE Mod one of the most requested features was the walk toggle. Some of us would like it for immersion as this is a roleplaying game, and as such the reason I backed the game. I loved the first game. The only thing that felt off after having played BG1/2, PT, ID and Even fallout 1/2 and Tactics was the loss of a walk option. Once I found IE Mod my enjoyment of the game grew even more. Hence the reason I have backed at the DCE level, and plan to increase my pledge during development. I even have TToN of my computer (I backed it too), and am playing it now.

 

Please remember that the feature is already in the game. All that is left to do is give the players the ability to turn it on and off at will. Obsidian even said the effort to put it in would be so minor it could be done without a problem. And as to the point that you don't believe that that Obsidian would care as its a numbers game is the reason for these posts to begin with. I and from what I can tell more than a few others would love to see it implemented. And it is at these point during development that you need to ask these things. and as to your 5% statement, 5% of over 4mil is nothing to scoff at.

[JerekKruger]

Let's say the cost of the walk toggle is 10 work hours.  Trust me it is more than that, A LOT more. 

 

Yeah no, I don't trust you on that.

[illathid]

 

Let's say the cost of the walk toggle is 10 work hours.  Trust me it is more than that, A LOT more. 

 

Yeah no, I don't trust you on that.

 

 

You should. It's not just about the programmer putting the walk toggle in, it's about the designer figuring out how it should work in edge cases (does it work in combat? if not, is walk status preserved after combat ends? etc.), it's about the UI designer adding it to the interface (even if it's only a key bind they'll need to account for it in options menus), it's the QA testing it to make sure it works with every possible character, etc.

[JerekKruger]

You should. It's not just about the programmer putting the walk toggle in, it's about the designer figuring out how it should work in edge cases (does it work in combat? if not, is walk status preserved after combat ends? etc.), it's about the UI designer adding it to the interface (even if it's only a key bind they'll need to account for it in options menus), it's the QA testing it to make sure it works with every possible character, etc.

 

EDIT: on second thoughts, this isn't going to lead anywhere constructive.

Edited March 4, 2017 by JerekKruger

[Icesong]

I understand that seemingly simple requests for software aren't necessarily such. If anyone's ever played WoW and asked or saw the common request to increase the backpack size up from 16, they finally explained what the issues involved are about a year ago. The answer is quite interesting(for those who would be interested in this sort of thing), and indeed not at all as simple as merely changing a value. 

 

But there's every indication to think walk toggle isn't one of those things. As stated, modders have already done it, it's seemingly already largely in the game, and they've said it wouldn't be difficult.

[Cerebro83]

You should. It's not just about the programmer putting the walk toggle in, it's about the designer figuring out how it should work in edge cases (does it work in combat? if not, is walk status preserved after combat ends? etc.), it's about the UI designer adding it to the interface (even if it's only a key bind they'll need to account for it in options menus), it's the QA testing it to make sure it works with every possible character, etc.

 

Solution for the programmer / designer in question: Download IE Mod, take a look at at the code regarding the walking toggle, integrate it into POE2 - done. It's already there, folks. They do not have to invent the wheel a second time. Just give the player access to it... (it's an RPG, so please let me roleplay.)

 

Anyhow, I think Jerek is right and this discussion is going nowhere. Saw the same thing happen in the old thread(s) where people asked for a walking toggle and some folks came in and opinions clashed. I think an optional toggle with no gameplay mechanics attached to would be perfectly fine for both camps here. Don't like it: don't use it. And until a developer comes out and proves me otherwise, I cannot believe that such an option would me a massive undertaking to implement - even more so because it got modded in to POE1 with no proper tools or easy access for modders to do really anything with the game.

Edited March 4, 2017 by Cerebro83

[Joral]

 

You should. It's not just about the programmer putting the walk toggle in, it's about the designer figuring out how it should work in edge cases (does it work in combat? if not, is walk status preserved after combat ends? etc.), it's about the UI designer adding it to the interface (even if it's only a key bind they'll need to account for it in options menus), it's the QA testing it to make sure it works with every possible character, etc.

 

Solution for the programmer / designer in question: Download IE Mod, take a look at at the code regarding the walking toggle, integrate it into POE2 - done. It's already there, folks. They do not have to invent the wheel a second time. Just give the player access to it... (it's an RPG, so please let me roleplay.)

 

Anyhow, I think Jerek is right and this discussion is going nowhere. Saw the same thing happen in the old thread(s) where people asked for a walking toggle and some folks came in and opinions clashed. I think an optional toggle with no gameplay mechanics attached to would be perfectly fine for both camps here. Don't like it: don't use it. And until a developer comes out and proves me otherwise, I cannot believe that such an option would me a massive undertaking to implement - even more so because it got modded in to POE1 with no proper tools or easy access for modders to do really anything with the game.

 

 

Josh even said "it would be so minor an adjustment it would take no time at all" He just doesn't see a point. I never took part in the forums in PoE1 as at that time I just assumed the game would be the way it would be. But now knowing that this is how you ask for features, and at this stage is when they get done. I just want a complete game this time. After Tyranny (Don't get me wrong I really liked the game) and how short and chopped up it was, I just want to make it known especially for an RPG that ANYTHING that adds to Immersion, Walk Toggle, Neutral colors for Neutral NPC's, Game and story length among many others, STRONGLY ENHANCE THE GAME. If someone with more experience with forums like this would be willing to tell me how to put up a poll I will.

Edited March 4, 2017 by Joral

[compleCCity]

Josh even said "it would be so minor an adjustment it would take no time at all" He just doesn't see a point. I never took part in the forums in PoE1 as at that time I just assumed the game would be the way it would be. But now knowing that this is how you ask for features, and at this stage is when they get done. I just want a complete game this time. After Tyranny (Don't get me wrong I really liked the game) and how short and chopped up it was, I just want to make it known especially for an RPG that ANYTHING that adds to Immersion, Walk Toggle, Neutral colors for Neutral NPC's, Game and story length among many others, STRONGLY ENHANCE THE GAME. If someone with more experience with forums like this would be willing to tell me how to put up a poll I will.

 

 

1. Start New Topic
2. Manage Topic Poll (upper right corner)

[Karkarov]

Josh even said "it would be so minor an adjustment it would take no time at all" He just doesn't see a point.

Lol, no, that's not what he said at all.  He said they could do it, he didn't think it would be that hard, he just didn't see the value of it as a feature, and it was only requested by an extreme niche of players. 

 

In other words "It cost X amount of money to benefit Y amount of customers, but this other thing I could do costs X amount of money too but benefits more customers."  it is a cost benefit analysis, it is how all intelligent businesses make decisions, and that is absolutely not "my opinion", it is a fact.  The cost benefit analysis on Walk Toggle = not worth the effort.

 

There is very little benefit to a walk toggle, because almost no one actually uses it.  As for the IE Mod, it was put in there just as a request by a couple users, none of the designers of the IE mod ever used it or cared for the feature.  They didn't even test it.  It was just one more thing to throw in an already bloated and hard to manage mod so why the heck not?