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A Reqeust for a walk toggle this Time

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His point is that their time would be better spent on more important things. If they have time to do it, sure, but I'd imagine that doing this is pretty low on their priority list.

 

If one of the devs wants to work on it in their spare time, sure, that's up to them.

 

As for usage of a walk toggle, I haven't found myself wanting to use one in PoE and I'd probably rarely use it if it did exist.

 

Also, if you look at the dev comment, it IS on their list, so.

Edited by smjjames

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1. 10% is still a considerable amount, so thanks for making my point, although I doubt that was your intention. I mean, let's say that around a million people buy the game, 10% is still over 100.000 people.

If you understood business you would know 10% is insignificant.  I was also exaggerating, truthfully if real data was measured it would probably be less than 5%.

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It doesn\t take away from other development. You are factually wrong.

 

Does it take literally no time to add a walk toggle to the game? No? Then it takes away time that could be spent on other features. It might not be a lot of time, but it's not no time.

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Okay I sort of played nice / made jokes in this thread before, since it has been revived and isn't dying a natural death I am going to be more clear now.

 

Walk Toggle is a waste of dev time, and money.

 

1: Less than 10% of players will actually use it.  Consider the evidence that one of the most popular features of Eternity's POE Mod, made by and for the old school hardcore PC RPG fans, was that it made your sneaking movement speed dramatically faster.

 

2: If you want to move slower you can already sneak, and that gives gameplay benefits, not just "immersion".

 

3: This is a top down RPG that has no mechanical benefit to walking versus normal movement speed, so there is no gameplay reason to include it.

 

4: It would require the development of multiple sets of new animations, which are time consuming, and very expensive.

 

5: The only benefit is "immersion enhancement" to a minority of players, while the vast majority of players have already said it will not enhance their immersion and they will not use it.

 

6: As developers I bet Obsidian has done studies about what people liked, and did not like, in all their old rose tinted glass viewed games.  The fact that they are willing to drop walk toggle says volumes about what that data gave them.

 

My few cents...

 

1. I'd like to know how many people use the color-blind option. Or the big heads... I certainly don't, but they are there anyway. I also don't use the "Speed Up" option Pillars provides, but it's there anyway. I don't care, if I'm with the 10% or the 90%. I care about the options I have to express myself in this RPG. If others don't care about that, that's fine and I don't blat about their "hack n' slash, skipping all dialogues, killing backer NPCs for early loot and run everywhere like a madman to speedrun the game in 10 hours" playstyle. A good RPG should provide as many people as possible the options to play the game as they want to - be it slow or fast, aggressive or peaceful etc...

 

2. Moving slower is not the crucial part here. It's "blending into the world and not looking like a goofball." In this regard, sneaking is hardly better than running.

 

3. Do different styles of (non magical) hats, clothes and so on have any mechanical benefits? No. Will the new idle animations in Deadfire have any mechanical benefits? I strongly doubt it. Why is this stuff in the game then? Well, it's an RPG. Immersion and stuff...

 

4. I'm no coder, but I cannot believe that. NPCs walk around and PCs do it in cut scenes (because those cut scenes would look stupid otherwise). So the animations are already there. The modder who created the walking toggle for IE Mod (blessed may he be) created a key-shortcut for an already existing set of animations and wrote a few lines of code to make it work. That's it. The effort and costs behind this should be minuscule. (By the way: Those new idle animations in Deadfire - do they benefit the players any more than a walking option? I mean, if you want to run everywhere as fast as possible, why would you stand around long enough to trigger them? Still, Obsidian takes the time and money to create them, because they enhance the world ever so slightly.)

 

5. See the points above. Nothing new here so say, really

 

6. Yeah, well, opinion surveys and catering the masses gets us movies like Transformers Part 57 and Assassins Creed Part 21. Most people are not really willing to try stuff they are not used to. "Bah, walking is so slow and in this mega-fast day and age I get bored very easily and have the attention span of a lightning bolt." Studies work, admittedly. They reduce the chance of failure and promise calculable profit. However, there are people who'd like catering to their niche tastes instead of the everyday copy-paste stuff for the masses. And as this is a niche type of game, I don't get why a niche group, who could be made happy so easily, is ignored or - worse - trolled.

Edited by Cerebro83
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It doesn\t take away from other development. You are factually wrong.

 

Does it take literally no time to add a walk toggle to the game? No? Then it takes away time that could be spent on other features. It might not be a lot of time, but it's not no time.

 

Well, if you consider 10-20 minutes of development time to be a problem, I don't know what to tell you. Since animations already exist, this is literally just a line of code that connects the walking command to a specific button. But don't take it from me - Josh Sawyer himself said it wouldn't be a problem to implement at all.

 

I'll tell you what... considering how your logic works, might I suggest that next time Obsidian doesn't create running animations. Let the characters just statically move from point A to to point B without animations. After all, by your logic if it doesn't affect the gameplay and takes more than 1 minute of development time, it shouldn't be in the game. While they are at it, they can also decide to not do idle animations, because that too takes away from REAL development time and it doesn't add anything to the game. Oh, fog and running rivers... yeah.. that doesn't affect the core gameplay, so better not waste time on that either.

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1. 10% is still a considerable amount, so thanks for making my point, although I doubt that was your intention. I mean, let's say that around a million people buy the game, 10% is still over 100.000 people.

If you understood business you would know 10% is insignificant.  I was also exaggerating, truthfully if real data was measured it would probably be less than 5%.

 

Look, I can pull stuff out of my ass too: "If they actually did a poll, they would realize that 78,33% of gamers want walking option."

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Aarik confirmed back in March that Josh did say that walking animations are on the list and it's confirmed to be on their list, so, just going to have to wait and see if they'll get around to it.

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Well, if you consider 10-20 minutes of development time to be a problem, I don't know what to tell you. Since animations already exist, this is literally just a line of code that connects the walking command to a specific button. But don't take it from me - Josh Sawyer himself said it wouldn't be a problem to implement at all.

 

Ten to twenty minutes to add the button. Then it goes to QA who discover that if you hit the button during combat it disables all attack and casting animations, or crashes the game, or whatever other bugs it might have associated with it. This takes significantly more than twenty minutes because QA have to be thorough to catch as many potential bugs as possible. Then it goes back to the coders who might take significantly longer than twenty minutes to fix those bugs, since they come as a result of the way the feature interacts with other parts of the code.

 

I'll tell you what... considering how your logic works, might I suggest that next time Obsidian doesn't create running animations. Let the characters just statically move from point A to to point B without animations.

 

This is what is known as a straw man. You argue against an argument that is, superficially, similar to my argument, but is not actually my argument.

 

Specifically my objection to spending time adding a walk toggle rests on how few people will actually use it or care that it's there. I can assure you if Obsidian released a game with such animations a lot more than 10% of people would complain; in fact I imagine almost 100% of players would be very unhappy.

 

While they are at it, they can also decide to not do idle animations, because that too takes away from REAL development time and it doesn't add anything to the game. Oh, fog and running rivers... yeah.. that doesn't affect the core gameplay, so better not waste time on that either.

 

Those are features I'd like to see in the game, so I am glad that Obsidian are including them. But if Obsidian had decided against including, say, idle animations to focus on something else then I wouldn't be that unhappy no.

Edited by JerekKruger

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Ten to twenty minutes to add the button. Then it goes to QA who discover that if you hit the button during combat it disables all attack and casting animations, or crashes the game, or whatever other bugs it might have associated with it. This takes significantly more than twenty minutes because QA have to be thorough to catch as many potential bugs as possible. Then it goes back to the coders who might take significantly longer than twenty minutes to fix those bugs, since they come as a result of the way the feature interacts with other parts of the code.

Again, take it with Josh Sawyer. He is the one who said it wouldn't be a problem to implement at all. And we have PoE1 mod that already added toggle walk with no official tools, so it can't be that hard. Furthermore, as I already said, I also know a bit about coding and adding a walk option cannot cause any huge bugs. At worst it can cause problems in cutscenes where the game is switching from running to walking and vice versa, but a good coder will immediately take that into consideration and can easily create a line of code to deal with that.

 

This is what is known as a straw man... Specifically my objection to spending time adding a walk toggle rests on how few people will actually use it or care that it's there. I can assure you if Obsidian released a game with such animations a lot more than 10% of people would complain; in fact I imagine almost 100% of players would be very unhappy.

1. 10% figure was taken out of Karkarov's ass.

2. Even if I grant you this number, 10% is still a huge number of people. Obsidian is probably aiming at an audience of around 1 million. 10% out of 1 mil. is still around 100.000 people.

3. I wasn't trying straw-man you. I was simply trying to make you look at this issue from a less selfish perspective, since most arguments against this feature boil down to: "I personally don't use it, so who cares about 10% of people who do." The point I was trying to make is that to us not having an option to walk is just as immersive breaking as it would be to you if there were no running animations.

 

Those are features I'd like to see in the game, so I am glad that Obsidian are including them.

 That's exactly my point. YOU, YOU, YOU'D like to see. Who gives a crap about others. Right? Well, lets just hope that one day you don't find yourself on the other side of the spectrum where you are the minority. And considering we had to resolve to Kicstarter to make these types of games happen, I am sure you know how that feels. I mean, wasn't the answer to our pleads from big publishers exactly that there was no interest in these types of games? Well, I guess the publishers were wrong, weren't they? Less interest doesn't equal to no interest.

Edited by RedKnight

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Look, I can pull stuff out of my ass too: "If they actually did a poll, they would realize that 78,33% of gamers want walking option."

You know that if this was a debate of any merit you just lost in the worst way?  Slinging insults only proves your argument is based on emotion, not logic, and you have no valid reasons for what you are pushing.

 

Walk Toggle does not increase immersion on any reasonable level.  It is not a feature that a real percentage of players want.  Catering to 90%+ of your players is not called bowing to the majority, it is called making decisions based on what most of your customers want. 

 

I don't like that they added in respecs at inns.  Far more immersion breaking than no walk toggle too.  But guess what, they did, likely because a majority of their customers wanted it.  Did you see me making a huge post on this forum railing against it?  Nope.

 

Immersion is already a poor argument for a feature to begin with, because immersion is based only on the player and their feelings.  Not everyone feels the same.  A reasonable amount of players don't even play for immersion, they play for the "combat puzzle" and "min maxing".  The largest group of players actually never even beat the game.  What a good dev should be doing, is asking themselves, why did that massive group not beat my game after playing it, and doing things to address legitimate concerns so more people play the game to completion.

 

I can promise you one undeniable fact.  Lack of walk toggle was not a factor in many players not completing eternity 1.

 

Also I have to ask, did someone actually compare color blind mode to walk toggle?  And big head mode?  Okay..... colorblind mode lets colorblind people play the game.  That's sort of a really nice feature to make your game more accessible to actual people.  Big head mode is funny, and in heavy combat situations can actually be useful for determining character position etc when turned on just to check.

 

Does walk toggle make the game more accessible to people with disabilities?  Does it serve any purpose in combat, even if it is only a slight one?  No.

 

Edited by Karkarov
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...

Wow... look dude, you are not even worth responding to. Your attempts at arguments just makes me cringe. Edited by RedKnight

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Wow... look dude, you are not even worth responding to. Your attempts at arguments just makes me cringe.

I appreciate you proving that you have no real points for the third time.

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Wow... look dude, you are not even worth responding to. Your attempts at arguments just makes me cringe.

I appreciate you proving that you have no real points for the third time.

 

You know what, I'll bite.

 

You know that if this was a debate of any merit you just lost in the worst way? Slinging insults only proves your argument is based on emotion.

I wasn't insulting you. I was calling you out on you pulling stuff out of your arse, which is a fact. I mean, if I am wrong, please show me a link to the poll where you can demonstrate that 90% of people DO NOT WANT this in the game.

 

Walk Toggle does not increase immersion on any reasonable level.

According to you. The very fact that there are whole threads all over the internet on this topic proves without a shadow of a doubt that to some people sprinting everywhere is immersion-breaking. How do we know that it's imerssion breaking to them? Well, they bloody said so. I mean, if I tell you that I like vanilla ice-cream, are you going to argue with me how vanilla ice-cream is not good on any reasonable level?

 

Catering to 90%+ of your players is not called bowing to the majority, it is called making decisions based on what most of your customers want.

Funny, that is exactly the response Obsidian got when they were asking to make these types of games :)

 

Immersion is already a poor argument for a feature to begin with, because immersion is based only on the player and their feelings. Not everyone feels the same.

Again, thank you for proving my point. You feel one way, me and many others feel different.

 

A reasonable amount of players don't even play for immersion, they play for the "combat puzzle" and "min maxing".

And many people play for other reasons, imerssion being one of it. So, again.. what's your point? Oh, that's right, you don't have any. You just want to impose your way of playing on everyone else.

 

I can promise you one undeniable fact. Lack of walk toggle was not a factor in many players not completing eternity 1.

I never said it was. But when your game already has numerous issues, why add to the pile of problems something that can be fixed with a few lines of code?

 

Okay..... colorblind mode lets colorblind people play the game. That's sort of a really nice feature to make your game more accessible to actual people.

But wasn't your whole argument that it's about quote: "...making decisions based on what most of your customers want"??  :)

... 

... or are you trying to say that people who care about imerssion are not quote: "actual people"? You see... this is why I didn't want to respond to you. I thought you must be a troll.

 

Does walk toggle make the game more accessible to people with disabilities? Does it serve any purpose in combat, even if it is only a slight one?

You are asking a loaded question. Whatever dude, I am done with you and this is my last response to you. You are not worth responding to. In fact, I refuse to believe anyone can be so thick, so I will just assume you are trolling.

Edited by RedKnight
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Let's tone down the rhetoric, we are after all not discussing international politics here - just a walk toggle function.

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Fortune favors the bald.

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I don't like that they added in respecs at inns.  Far more immersion breaking than no walk toggle too.  But guess what, they did, likely because a majority of their customers wanted it.  Did you see me making a huge post on this forum railing against it?  Nope.

 

Any why should you? Its optional, so you don't have to use it. (I'm not a big fan myself and always plan my builds so that I don't have to respec.) As the walking toggle is not (officially) in the game, people don't get to chose, so the situation is completely different.

 

 

Immersion is already a poor argument for a feature to begin with, because immersion is based only on the player and their feelings.  Not everyone feels the same.  A reasonable amount of players don't even play for immersion, they play for the "combat puzzle" and "min maxing". 

 

If immersion wasn't important, we could play a game purely based on numbers floating an a black screen without any animations, dialogue or story at all. Min-Max your stats and solve combat-scenarios aka arithmetic problems. Sounds fun, doesn't it? The point is: What level of immersion is needed to have fun? For you and the majority of people - walking is totally unimportant. For a few others - it is not. I totally get why this feature is not very high priority, but it's not useless as many requests since the launch of Pillars 1 prove.

 

 

The largest group of players actually never even beat the game.  What a good dev should be doing, is asking themselves, why did that massive group not beat my game after playing it, and doing things to address legitimate concerns so more people play the game to completion.

 

What a good dev should be doing, is enhance the gaming experience to the best of their abilities by squashing bugs, adding requested features and overall presenting the best game they can possibly deliver. The more fun people have playing, the more will complete and replay it. So... for some people, a walking toggle would enhance the experience. Maybe not many, but the work behind this is also neither expensive, time consuming or demanding, so it's not unreasonable to ask and / or consider.

 

 

I can promise you one undeniable fact.  Lack of walk toggle was not a factor in many players not completing eternity 1.

 

I agree, but so what? Most people don't complete most games of any type. This doesn't say or prove anything at all regarding the topic at hand.

 

 

Also I have to ask, did someone actually compare color blind mode to walk toggle?  And big head mode?  Okay..... colorblind mode lets colorblind people play the game.  That's sort of a really nice feature to make your game more accessible to actual people.  Big head mode is funny, and in heavy combat situations can actually be useful for determining character position etc when turned on just to check.

Does walk toggle make the game more accessible to people with disabilities?  Does it serve any purpose in combat, even if it is only a slight one?  No.

 

Yes, I did compare them - to show that it's useful and appreciated to add optional features even if the majority of players won't use them. A walking toggle would enhance the experience for some people as well as colorblind mode enhances the playability for others. Both features have their interested parties and just because one part of the playerbase does not want or require them, doesn't make them unnecessary or a waste of dev time. What I get from your posts (and some others) is this: "I see no need for it so there is none. Because my opinion is all that matters."

 

Look, I totally get why this feature is not very high on the priority list. Obsidian has to pick their fights, because they cannot do everything everyone wants from them. And I'm totally cool with people who come here saying they don't need a walking toggle. But I'm not cool when people come here and declare what is important in an RPG and not as a matter of fact, because that's as subjective as everything else. You may play for Min-Maxing and combat. I play for story and immersion. Is my preference more important than yours? No. Is yours more important than mine? Not in my book.

 

The purpose of this thread - for me anyway - is to show that there is demand for this feature, so it doesn't get swept under rug like in Pillars 1. If you don't agree: Fine, don't chime in, then. Ignore this thread and post in others. This unending back and forth here does not lead anywhere constructive, so I'll release myself from it. I think I made my voice heard and my position on this matter clear.

 

My final words: Giving a player more options is never wrong or a waste of time. Yes, there are things more important than a walking toggle, but I hope that one will make it into the game, nevertheless. Love and respect.

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Walking toggle would be amazing. No need to be snide about it.

But it doesn't need to be "crusaded" either. If it gets in, it gets in. Like any other feature. However, thinking about it, if I got to choose, which feature would I have wanted more... Walking Animations, or Idle Animations? Tough call. They both hold pretty much the same value (in terms of gameplay), although I suppose from a design perspective Idle Animations adds a little bit more. But what would I want if I got the choice and could only choose one? I don't know to be honest.

Idle:
1) It adds "character" to the characters. Allowing you to put one on your MC (the Watcher) also adds CC (character creation) options.
2) Atmosphere
3) Immersion

Walking:
1) Atmosphere
2) Immersion

But put into perspective of how they would function:

Idle: Stand still long enough and the characters will go into Idle Anims
Walking: Press a button and the characters will start walking

One is a passive feature, the other is an active feature. Active features tend to be most interesting if they have some meat to them. Like Assassin's Creed, Walking literally allows you to blend in with a crowd and hide. It's also a very useful feature in games where you're following someone, stalking them to find out a hideout, spying, detective work etc. etc.

Basically, Active features are most satisfying when they have a purpose, whilst passive features are more or less "cute" or "atmospheric".

Another example is Dynamic Weather. It's a passive feature. It doesn't add anything to combat, or to the gameplay, or to the Player Party. It's just atmosphere and immersion (of course, at a bigger scale than either Walking or Idle, because Dynamic Weather affects World, not just individual Character). You won't get status effects from it. But Obsidian might have some "Actions" and "Conditions" that only happen during a Rain (Like Final Fantasy 12, where you could only hunt some monsters or have some encounters when it was a specific type of weather). E.g. most NPC's runs inside when it rains or is a storm outside, but a band of ruffians might take that opportunity to steal or pillage a nearby locale. Guards will probably stand their ground, keep patrolling and stuff like that.

But my point is that, it's a passive feature in that it's not something the Player controls. It adds to the atmospheric level of the game, making it more beautiful and feels more reactive to environments and the world, and makes the experience more sensually satisfying. The same applies to both Idle and Walking.

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.

I'm not against implementing a walking toggle but don't idle animations have a kind of purpose in telling you that you're being idle and may not wish to leave your game that way? Similar to the comments that played in the first game if you were inactive for a while.

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Walking toggle is not a difficult feature to add. At the same time it's very important for immersion. It's details like this that break or make a game for me. Will not buy the game if they don't add such a basic function.

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Pro Tip :

 

Put the Game in Slow Mode, there you go, Walking Animation !

Problem Solved  :aiee::facepalm:

And here is a pro tip for you:

1. Hold your lip really tight between your fingers.

2. Pull the lip over your head.

3. Swallow.

4. When your head comes out of your ass, read what people already said about your suggestion.

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Pro Tip :

 

Put the Game in Slow Mode, there you go, Walking Animation !

Problem Solved  :aiee::facepalm:

And here is a pro tip for you:

1. Hold your lip really tight between your fingers.

2. Pull the lip over your head.

3. Swallow.

4. When your head comes out of your ass, read what people already said about your suggestion.

 

 

Can't you take a joke? :p

Edited by smjjames
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Walking toggle would be amazing. No need to be snide about it.

 

But it doesn't need to be "crusaded" either. If it gets in, it gets in. Like any other feature. However, thinking about it, if I got to choose, which feature would I have wanted more... Walking Animations, or Idle Animations? Tough call. They both hold pretty much the same value (in terms of gameplay), although I suppose from a design perspective Idle Animations adds a little bit more. But what would I want if I got the choice and could only choose one? I don't know to be honest.

 

Idle:

1) It adds "character" to the characters. Allowing you to put one on your MC (the Watcher) also adds CC (character creation) options.

2) Atmosphere

3) Immersion

 

Walking:

1) Atmosphere

2) Immersion

 

But put into perspective of how they would function:

 

Idle: Stand still long enough and the characters will go into Idle Anims

Walking: Press a button and the characters will start walking

 

One is a passive feature, the other is an active feature. Active features tend to be most interesting if they have some meat to them. Like Assassin's Creed, Walking literally allows you to blend in with a crowd and hide. It's also a very useful feature in games where you're following someone, stalking them to find out a hideout, spying, detective work etc. etc.

 

Basically, Active features are most satisfying when they have a purpose, whilst passive features are more or less "cute" or "atmospheric".

 

Another example is Dynamic Weather. It's a passive feature. It doesn't add anything to combat, or to the gameplay, or to the Player Party. It's just atmosphere and immersion (of course, at a bigger scale than either Walking or Idle, because Dynamic Weather affects World, not just individual Character). You won't get status effects from it. But Obsidian might have some "Actions" and "Conditions" that only happen during a Rain (Like Final Fantasy 12, where you could only hunt some monsters or have some encounters when it was a specific type of weather). E.g. most NPC's runs inside when it rains or is a storm outside, but a band of ruffians might take that opportunity to steal or pillage a nearby locale. Guards will probably stand their ground, keep patrolling and stuff like that.

 

But my point is that, it's a passive feature in that it's not something the Player controls. It adds to the atmospheric level of the game, making it more beautiful and feels more reactive to environments and the world, and makes the experience more sensually satisfying. The same applies to both Idle and Walking.

 

I would say this is hardly a choice. Idle all the way. I really do have hard time believing that the walk toggle is REALLY so desired. I doubt it will get much use if it will be implimented. Even if some people really can't deal with them characters jogging from one place to another, most of the players would find it to be an unnecessary waste of time. Idle animations will be seen by everyone - when they look around, during conversations etc. And they enhance the game by helping in fleshing out companions, locations and your character. 

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I would say this is hardly a choice. Idle all the way.

Why can't we have both? Yeah, you are absolutely right that this is not a choice. It should never be a choice. Both of these things need to be in the game, because it will add to imerssion to certain types of players. Not everybody of course, but that can be said about any part of the game.

 

Even if some people really can't deal with them characters jogging from one place to another, most of the players would find it to be an unnecessary waste of time.

And you know this based on what?... Look, just because you personally dont use a feature, doesn't mean that the same applies to everyone else. And again, there is not a high demand for colorblind mode, but the devs still made it, so why should this be treated any differently?

 

There people here who already said that they will not be buying the game if Obsidian doesn't introduce this imerssion breaking feature - myself included. Most people commenting here want this option. On the Obsidian's YouTube video with the latest patch I made a comment about this topic and I recieved over 30 likes in less than 12 hours since posting it. It is at this time one of the most highlighted comments! The internet is filled with comments on various sites where people are searching for a way to fix this through mods in PoE1, Tyranny and even Torment. There are even reviews by users I have seen who complain because of this, etc.

 

Now, we may both speculate on how much demand there is for it, but until you show me some polls, all you are doing is baseless speculation. I may say the opposite thing and be on an equal footing as you.

 

 

Idle animations will be seen by everyone - when they look around, during conversations etc. And they enhance the game by helping in fleshing out companions, locations and your character.

I will now use your argument to illustrate the above point: "Well, I doubt people will use it (idle animations), since most people are in a constant hurry to do things, so most of the players would find it to be an unnecessary waste of time."

 

See? We both can make unsubstianted claims. :)

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Definitely want walking toggle. I like to walk around when I go in Taverns/Shops and stuff in RPG's. In BG I like to put my characters stood around a table whilst one goes to the bar...

 

Might seem kind of lame but isn't this sort of stuff what RPG's are all about? Being able to walk helps that.

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nowt

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