Politics 2017 Part 3

[Elerond]

 

Fight against it like we fought against communism. Invite people in, promise them freedom and self control. It was communists that build wall to prevent people leaving their country not western people building wall to prevent people coming in from communistic regimes. Now days we fight more like authoritarians than people from the free world.

 

Like people are saying that Muslims will take over our countries are same fear that communist had towards western people, it is wear that our way of living isn't appealing enough to people and outside philosophy will over run it if we don't protect our way philosophy even if it means to go against our own values and ideologies.

 

They are not fleeing islam as a religion. They colonising and creating their own societies.

 

 

You mean to say that most of them are fleeing war, persecution or poverty in their own countries and we don't let them to integrate to our society but instead we put them for years in centers where they have little to none daily interaction with main population. I would point out that tens of thousands of Muslim refugees are willing to convert to Christianity (although often motivated y hope that makes us to let them stay) 

[Chilloutman]

Okay, before I get in any deeper... does everyone here realise that there are causes of why people turn to extreme ideologies outside of the ideology itslef?

 

Why do people turn to extremism? Usually it's due to poverty or oppression. Another possibility, especially in our modern world, is that people feel lost, or let down. Isolation is a big factor. We need to create a society that is open and caring, so people don't get the notion that the world they live in failed in. I'll write more later, right now I lack the time.

Applies to Breivik?

[Elerond]

 

 

 

Fight against it like we fought against communism. Invite people in, promise them freedom and self control. It was communists that build wall to prevent people leaving their country not western people building wall to prevent people coming in from communistic regimes. Now days we fight more like authoritarians than people from the free world.

 

Like people are saying that Muslims will take over our countries are same fear that communist had towards western people, it is wear that our way of living isn't appealing enough to people and outside philosophy will over run it if we don't protect our way philosophy even if it means to go against our own values and ideologies.

Oh cmon, this is insulting.

 

Our own countries shoot people trying to escape to Western world. I would say it was almost 0 people who get out of CCCP who wanted to create communism in the West. On contrary there are tons of Muslims in West who actually want to create sharia laws and caliphate inside of western world.

 

 

Sharia laws are similar to ten commandments and laws in old testament, meaning that Muslims that don't live according to them are living in sin. There are lots of christian in western world that wants to make our countries laws more like laws in old testament, but that want alone don't make it become reality. And that is the fear that we somehow would suddenly accept Muslims code of morals instead of our own, and they would not and their children will not adopt our ethical codes and standards and assimilate them to their religious belief is the thing that currently drives lot of our policies and is one of the roots cause that drives resurgence extremist politics in main stream. 

 

In Finland we have over 100k people with Russian heritage and 70k of them speak Russia as their first language, big sunk of them are from Soviet times. In comparison there are 40k-65k Muslims in Finland. It is Muslims that are taking over our country according to our politicians.

 

Not sure what are you saying by this. Also 10 commandments probably are not against most of secular laws in West, where Sharia sure is. Also I didn't heard that Christians are creating their own courts outside of regular secular courts.

 

 

Like You shall not covet your neighbor’s house. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his male or female servant (original translation slave), his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.

 

Or Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor, and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates. For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

 

 

Thus you will say to Israel’s sons: “Yahweh your fathers’ deity, Abraham’s deity, Isaac’s deity, and Jacob’s deity – He has sent me to you;” This is My name to eternity, and this is My designation age (by) age.

 

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth: 5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me; 6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

 

"Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain."

 

And laws in old testament go even more against many of our laws.

 

There are Christian religions that have their own courts. Like for example in Finland we have Laestadianism which is a conservative Lutheran revival movement started in Lapland in the middle of the 19th century. Which has their elder council that judge over its members and their members often don't even go in our regular secular courts when it comes to disputes between two members. And they aren't only Christian sect that has their own court system.

[Meshugger]

 

 

Fight against it like we fought against communism. Invite people in, promise them freedom and self control. It was communists that build wall to prevent people leaving their country not western people building wall to prevent people coming in from communistic regimes. Now days we fight more like authoritarians than people from the free world.

 

Like people are saying that Muslims will take over our countries are same fear that communist had towards western people, it is wear that our way of living isn't appealing enough to people and outside philosophy will over run it if we don't protect our way philosophy even if it means to go against our own values and ideologies.

 

They are not fleeing islam as a religion. They colonising and creating their own societies.

 

 

You mean to say that most of them are fleeing war, persecution or poverty in their own countries and we don't let them to integrate to our society but instead we put them for years in centers where they have little to none daily interaction with main population. I would point out that tens of thousands of Muslim refugees are willing to convert to Christianity (although often motivated y hope that makes us to let them stay) 

 

 

Strange how middle eastern and north african muslims fail to integrate into western societies while the rest does even if you take into account the detriment policy of dumping anyone into the ghetto.

 

Previously we invited Salman Rushdies to the west to live in freedom from tyranny, but last year the door was open for any jester fooling the lady border patrol officer that he suddenly wants to be christian and if you don't open the border for him, he and his pals will storm it, throw rocks at you or any other means necessary.

[Elerond]

 

 

 

Fight against it like we fought against communism. Invite people in, promise them freedom and self control. It was communists that build wall to prevent people leaving their country not western people building wall to prevent people coming in from communistic regimes. Now days we fight more like authoritarians than people from the free world.

 

Like people are saying that Muslims will take over our countries are same fear that communist had towards western people, it is wear that our way of living isn't appealing enough to people and outside philosophy will over run it if we don't protect our way philosophy even if it means to go against our own values and ideologies.

 

They are not fleeing islam as a religion. They colonising and creating their own societies.

 

 

You mean to say that most of them are fleeing war, persecution or poverty in their own countries and we don't let them to integrate to our society but instead we put them for years in centers where they have little to none daily interaction with main population. I would point out that tens of thousands of Muslim refugees are willing to convert to Christianity (although often motivated y hope that makes us to let them stay) 

 

 

Strange how middle eastern and north african muslims fail to integrate into western societies while the rest does even if you take into account the detriment policy of dumping anyone into the ghetto.

 

Previously we invited Salman Rushdies to the west to live in freedom from tyranny, but last year the door was open for any jester fooling the lady border patrol officer that he suddenly wants to be christian and if you don't open the border for him, he and his pals will storm it, throw rocks at you or any other means necessary.

 

 

It is strange how there are several (5) restaurants run by middle eastern and north african muslims just one kilometer radius from my home

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

 

Fight against it like we fought against communism. Invite people in, promise them freedom and self control. It was communists that build wall to prevent people leaving their country not western people building wall to prevent people coming in from communistic regimes. Now days we fight more like authoritarians than people from the free world.

 

Like people are saying that Muslims will take over our countries are same fear that communist had towards western people, it is wear that our way of living isn't appealing enough to people and outside philosophy will over run it if we don't protect our way philosophy even if it means to go against our own values and ideologies.

 

They are not fleeing islam as a religion. They colonising and creating their own societies.

 

 

You mean to say that most of them are fleeing war, persecution or poverty in their own countries and we don't let them to integrate to our society but instead we put them for years in centers where they have little to none daily interaction with main population. I would point out that tens of thousands of Muslim refugees are willing to convert to Christianity (although often motivated y hope that makes us to let them stay) 

 

 

Strange how middle eastern and north african muslims fail to integrate into western societies while the rest does even if you take into account the detriment policy of dumping anyone into the ghetto.

 

Previously we invited Salman Rushdies to the west to live in freedom from tyranny, but last year the door was open for any jester fooling the lady border patrol officer that he suddenly wants to be christian and if you don't open the border for him, he and his pals will storm it, throw rocks at you or any other means necessary.

 

 

It is strange how there are several (5) restaurants run by middle eastern and north african muslims just one kilometer radius from my home

 

In other words you saying there are real degrees of  integration when Muslim refugees arrive in Finland?

[BruceVC]

Let's just agree that all ideologies and religions can be used in order to justify extremism, shall we?

Not at all, as I mentioned numerous times Western democracies work even if there is some valid criticism and responsible Capitalism is the best way to grow most economies 

[Raithe]

 

"We gave Putin a chance in Russia, and it was the last free election we ever had." - Gary Kasparov interview in Vox.

 

Vox - A conversation with chess champion Garry Kasparov.

[BruceVC]

 

 

Let's just agree that all ideologies and religions can be used in order to justify extremism, shall we?

Not at all, as I mentioned numerous times Western democracies work even if there is some valid criticism and responsible Capitalism is the best way to grow most economies

...

 

Because western democracy and capitalism hasn't been used to "justify" any extremism?

 

Oh it has historically but again you seem to ignore the data  that is freely available when it comes to the  best systems of government nowadays, we should not ask ourselves " what are the wealthiest top 10 countries " as the best metric as wealth doesnt always equate to happiness  which should be more important. We should ask " what countries overall have the happiest citizens " ....they almost all Western countries, I don't need to convince anyone Western values offer the most effective governments. The facts are the facts 

 

 http://www.nationalgeographic.com/travel/top-10/2016-worlds-happiest-countries/

 

http://edition.cnn.com/2015/04/23/travel/feat-world-happiest-countries-2015/index.html

 

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/11/the-worlds-happiest-countries-in-2016/

[Zoraptor]

"We gave Putin a chance in Russia, and it was the last free election we ever had." - Gary Kasparov interview in Vox.

 

Vox - A conversation with chess champion Garry Kasparov.

 

 

Meh, US bought the 1996 election for that incompetent drunkard Yeltsin. So they gave Yeltsin one chance and it was the last free election they had as well.

 

 

In the early 1960's France, like the UK,   gave back all their colonies, there was no more occupation or Colonialism

 

 

Yeah, except, for:

• Îles des Saintes
• Marie-Galante
• la Désirade
• Martinique
• Clipperton Island
• Saint Pierre and Miquelon
• Saint Martin
• Saint Bartholemew
• Mayotte
• Reunion
• French Guyana
• Tahiti
• New Caledonia

I guess I could add all the colonies that the UK still holds as well (such as Diego Garcia, which the UK depopulated in the 60s/70s, to show how enlightened they'd become), but nah.

Edited February 13, 2017 by Zoraptor

[Chilloutman]

 

 

 

 

Fight against it like we fought against communism. Invite people in, promise them freedom and self control. It was communists that build wall to prevent people leaving their country not western people building wall to prevent people coming in from communistic regimes. Now days we fight more like authoritarians than people from the free world.

 

Like people are saying that Muslims will take over our countries are same fear that communist had towards western people, it is wear that our way of living isn't appealing enough to people and outside philosophy will over run it if we don't protect our way philosophy even if it means to go against our own values and ideologies.

Oh cmon, this is insulting.

 

Our own countries shoot people trying to escape to Western world. I would say it was almost 0 people who get out of CCCP who wanted to create communism in the West. On contrary there are tons of Muslims in West who actually want to create sharia laws and caliphate inside of western world.

 

 

Sharia laws are similar to ten commandments and laws in old testament, meaning that Muslims that don't live according to them are living in sin. There are lots of christian in western world that wants to make our countries laws more like laws in old testament, but that want alone don't make it become reality. And that is the fear that we somehow would suddenly accept Muslims code of morals instead of our own, and they would not and their children will not adopt our ethical codes and standards and assimilate them to their religious belief is the thing that currently drives lot of our policies and is one of the roots cause that drives resurgence extremist politics in main stream. 

 

In Finland we have over 100k people with Russian heritage and 70k of them speak Russia as their first language, big sunk of them are from Soviet times. In comparison there are 40k-65k Muslims in Finland. It is Muslims that are taking over our country according to our politicians.

 

Not sure what are you saying by this. Also 10 commandments probably are not against most of secular laws in West, where Sharia sure is. Also I didn't heard that Christians are creating their own courts outside of regular secular courts.

 

 

Like You shall not covet your neighbor’s house. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his male or female servant (original translation slave), his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.

 

Or Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor, and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates. For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

 

 

Thus you will say to Israel’s sons: “Yahweh your fathers’ deity, Abraham’s deity, Isaac’s deity, and Jacob’s deity – He has sent me to you;” This is My name to eternity, and this is My designation age (by) age.

 

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth: 5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me; 6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

 

"Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain."

 

And laws in old testament go even more against many of our laws.

 

There are Christian religions that have their own courts. Like for example in Finland we have Laestadianism which is a conservative Lutheran revival movement started in Lapland in the middle of the 19th century. Which has their elder council that judge over its members and their members often don't even go in our regular secular courts when it comes to disputes between two members. And they aren't only Christian sect that has their own court system.

 

well, bad for you I would say

 

as for the commandments - are there any rules/punishments for breaking them? Except not being considered good christian any more?

[BruceVC]

 

"We gave Putin a chance in Russia, and it was the last free election we ever had." - Gary Kasparov interview in Vox.

 

Vox - A conversation with chess champion Garry Kasparov.

 

 

Meh, US bought the 1996 election for that incompetent drunkard Yeltsin. So they gave Yeltsin one chance and it was the last free election they had as well.

 

 

In the early 1960's France, like the UK,   gave back all their colonies, there was no more occupation or Colonialism

 

 

Yeah, except, for:

• Îles des Saintes
• Marie-Galante
• la Désirade
• Martinique
• Clipperton Island
• Saint Pierre and Miquelon
• Saint Martin
• Saint Bartholemew
• Mayotte
• Reunion
• French Guyana
• Tahiti
• New Caledonia

I guess I could add all the colonies that the UK still holds as well (such as Diego Garcia, which the UK depopulated in the 60s/70s, to show how enlightened they'd become), but nah.

 

Most people have  never heard of half those places...you have to list relevant countries 

[Barothmuk]

lol

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

 

"We gave Putin a chance in Russia, and it was the last free election we ever had." - Gary Kasparov interview in Vox.

Vox - A conversation with chess champion Garry Kasparov.

Meh, US bought the 1996 election for that incompetent drunkard Yeltsin. So they gave Yeltsin one chance and it was the last free election they had as well.

In the early 1960's France, like the UK, gave back all their colonies, there was no more occupation or Colonialism

Yeah, except, for:

• Îles des Saintes
• Marie-Galante
• la Désirade
• Martinique
• Clipperton Island
• Saint Pierre and Miquelon
• Saint Martin
• Saint Bartholemew
• Mayotte
• Reunion
• French Guyana
• Tahiti
• New Caledonia

I guess I could add all the colonies that the UK still holds as well (such as Diego Garcia, which the UK depopulated in the 60s/70s, to show how enlightened they'd become), but nah.

Most people have never heard of half those places...you have to list relevant countries

So only relevant people deserve sovereignty? And if so what determined relevance?

 

If you go down that path you'll get into some very dangerous places I'm sure you don't include into "responsible capitalism"

 

I doubt many of the countries in that list  want independence from France, they are considered Regions of France and there quality of life under France is better than if they were independent 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regions_of_France

[Drowsy Emperor]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-38956212

 

Europe is hopeless. The mindset that allows a person to behave like this can only be fixed by divine intervention. The mindset of the voter who silently condones it, or sees no problem with it makes for useless apolitical fodder. You couldn't make a municipality of those people, let alone a nation state.

 

Edited February 13, 2017 by Drowsy Emperor

[Gfted1]

*takes in a deep breath of air*

 

Ah, I love the smell of victim blaming in the morning. Just remember folks, any terroristic actions that occur in your countries has been caused by you, or your colonial ancestors, or perhaps the Crusades. You brought this on yourselves.

[BruceVC]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-38956212

 

Europe is hopeless. The mindset that allows a person to behave like this can only be fixed by divine intervention. The mindset of the voter who silently condones it, or sees no problem with it makes for useless apolitical fodder. You couldn't make a municipality of those people, let alone a nation state.

 

 

Yes but its illegal to not wear a headscarf according to the article? The Swedish government surely  cant break Iranian law 

[Malcador]

*takes in a deep breath of air*

 

Ah, I love the smell of victim blaming in the morning. Just remember folks, any terroristic actions that occur in your countries has been caused by you, or your colonial ancestors, or perhaps the Crusades. You brought this on yourselves.

Amusingly simplistic view. Well unless you believe the West isn't reaping a bit of what they've sown.

[Gfted1]

Amusingly simplistic view. Well unless you believe the West isn't reaping a bit of what they've sown.

The "west"? Isn't the party line to trot out the ole "the majority of terrorism happens in ME countries". What did they do to deserve it? Oh yeah, slightly different interpretation of the scripture. I guess pretty much anything is a valid reason huh?

[redneckdevil]

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-38956212

 

Europe is hopeless. The mindset that allows a person to behave like this can only be fixed by divine intervention. The mindset of the voter who silently condones it, or sees no problem with it makes for useless apolitical fodder. You couldn't make a municipality of those people, let alone a nation state.

 

Yes but its illegal to not wear a headscarf according to the article? The Swedish government surely cant break Iranian law

My bad, Iran it is illegal. Kinda weird that a pronounced feminist government would go there and be subjected to that law instead of asking to meet elsewhere. Doesn't show a good vibe of how strong the feminist part is for media.

 

TBH don't really care, It's nice to see a controversial topic and not get blown outta the water. Here something of this nature would cause the media to have a heart attack

Edited February 13, 2017 by redneckdevil

[Drowsy Emperor]

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-38956212

 

Europe is hopeless. The mindset that allows a person to behave like this can only be fixed by divine intervention. The mindset of the voter who silently condones it, or sees no problem with it makes for useless apolitical fodder. You couldn't make a municipality of those people, let alone a nation state.

 

 

Yes but its illegal to not wear a headscarf according to the article? The Swedish government surely  cant break Iranian law 

 

 

Its illegal for the plebeians, but you better believe they could have gone forward without headscarves if they wanted to. 

Edited February 13, 2017 by Drowsy Emperor

[Malcador]

 

Amusingly simplistic view. Well unless you believe the West isn't reaping a bit of what they've sown.

The "west"? Isn't the party line to trot out the ole "the majority of terrorism happens in ME countries". What did they do to deserve it? Oh yeah, slightly different interpretation of the scripture. I guess pretty much anything is a valid reason huh?

Well you were bleating about Crusades and others so you weren't looking at the West? Isn't all that hard to understand things don't reach a point without a lot of hands involved.

 

Ah well.

[BruceVC]

 

 

Amusingly simplistic view. Well unless you believe the West isn't reaping a bit of what they've sown.

The "west"? Isn't the party line to trot out the ole "the majority of terrorism happens in ME countries". What did they do to deserve it? Oh yeah, slightly different interpretation of the scripture. I guess pretty much anything is a valid reason huh?

Well you were bleating about Crusades and others so you weren't looking at the West? Isn't all that hard to understand things don't reach a point without a lot of hands involved.

 

Ah well.

 

No the West must take some responsibility for the rise of Islamic extremism, it would be disingenuous to suggest the West has played no part

 

I would say the West is maybe 8-10 % responsible for Islamic  extremism, the rest is other factors most Muslim countries are grappling with like implementing human rights and particularly recognizing the rights of minorities like women and other groups 

[Gfted1]

Well you were bleating about Crusades and others so you weren't looking at the West? Isn't all that hard to understand things don't reach a point without a lot of hands involved.

 

Ah well.

Maybe go back and reread my post for your better comprehension? I also mention "you" and "your ancestors" as possible motives for deserving to be on the receiving end of terrorism. I'm sure we can come up with a few more too!

[Meshugger]

 

 

 

 

Fight against it like we fought against communism. Invite people in, promise them freedom and self control. It was communists that build wall to prevent people leaving their country not western people building wall to prevent people coming in from communistic regimes. Now days we fight more like authoritarians than people from the free world.

 

Like people are saying that Muslims will take over our countries are same fear that communist had towards western people, it is wear that our way of living isn't appealing enough to people and outside philosophy will over run it if we don't protect our way philosophy even if it means to go against our own values and ideologies.

 

They are not fleeing islam as a religion. They colonising and creating their own societies.

 

 

You mean to say that most of them are fleeing war, persecution or poverty in their own countries and we don't let them to integrate to our society but instead we put them for years in centers where they have little to none daily interaction with main population. I would point out that tens of thousands of Muslim refugees are willing to convert to Christianity (although often motivated y hope that makes us to let them stay) 

 

 

Strange how middle eastern and north african muslims fail to integrate into western societies while the rest does even if you take into account the detriment policy of dumping anyone into the ghetto.

 

Previously we invited Salman Rushdies to the west to live in freedom from tyranny, but last year the door was open for any jester fooling the lady border patrol officer that he suddenly wants to be christian and if you don't open the border for him, he and his pals will storm it, throw rocks at you or any other means necessary.

 

 

It is strange how there are several (5) restaurants run by middle eastern and north african muslims just one kilometer radius from my home

 

 

So well integrated that they are exporting the best back:

 

http://yle.fi/uutiset/osasto/news/cnn_finland_tops_list_of_countries_with_muslim_fighters_in_syria/7446816

 

The world would be better of by sending them all back, build a wall around them, wait a few hundred years, and open the door and hopefully something civilized will emerge from the other side.

 

Perpetually importing people from regions that do nothing but destabilizing a society is simply not going to cut it. Better do it now in a civilized matter before creating the balkanisation begins the inevitable war begins.