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Politics 2017 Part 3


Wrath of Dagon

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My turn: do. you agree that failed western interventions is one of the big causes that lead to the rise of fundamentalism and religious extremism?

 

 

Nah, it's still Saudi Arabia.

 

Plenty of incompetent/ malign/ ignorant western interventions outside the ME which haven't resulted in religious extremism. Rwanda, Vietnam, Guatemala etc may have been negatively effected by interventions, but they haven't ended up with the blight of a wahhabi extremism equivalent.

 

Nah its not Saudi Arabia, its some Saudi citizens who have certain extreme  ideological views that have made a major contribution towards extremism

 

We need to stop generalizing about the entire country of Saudi Arabia as if they are some monolithic entity, they not and its unhelpful to the general debate   " where do we equate blame to the rise of Islamic extremism " 

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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I believe Petraeus was on his way to the White House this week for... something.

 

Idle thought, but it'd be something if through the rest of Trump's cabinet being embroiled in scandals that lead to further "resignations" Mattis gets Gerald Forded into Oval Office.

Paul Ryan is ahead of him. Then President pro tempore of the Senate, whoever that is.

"Moral indignation is a standard strategy for endowing the idiot with dignity." Marshall McLuhan

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"While it is true you learn with age, the down side is what you often learn is what a damn fool you were before"

Thomas Sowell

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Ah whining about whining, references to nebulous groups..must be a Murdoch paper :p

Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra

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Presidents get too much credit and blame.  our President doesn't have the kinda power most folks thinks he does.  Presidents who is blamed for economic woes or economic improvements is often being targeted for blame/credit which is more appropriate directed at Congress or a past administration.  'course we has rare seen a President take so much credit for stuff he didn't do. it is hard to sympathize.  f-35 cost reduction negotiated long before trump were elected?  takes credit for keeping a ford plant in the US, a plant which ford were never planning to move? has made similar claims regarding intel, sprint and general motors. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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For the same exact reason they made up 'weapons of mass destruction' and propped up Nayirah al-Ṣabaḥ to spout the lies she did.

 

Gotta have a good casus belli to sell to the masses when you wanna invade and conquer. Making them up happens at least as often as it doesn't.

 

History is replete with them, modern times seemingly even more so.

 

It also helps to blame atrocities committed by one's own armies or that of one's allies upon the designated enemy. Which is very probably the case with the 'Halabja chemical attack'. Whoever was responsible (Iraq, Iran, or someone else), the allegations that Saddam did this didn't even occur until the late 90s in the western world, when the talking heads in the U.S./U.K. et al were constantly trying to drum up public support for a re-invasion of Iraq (even more than they try to drum up public support against Russia or Iran today).

 

No, I understand how it was useful in 2002-2003, just not in 1988 when it happened. That'd require some serious foresight in planning for a war there was no apparent reason to launch back then.

 

I'm not totally clear on what you're suggesting. Are you saying that it didn't happen or that it did happen but Iraq wasn't the perpetrator?

- When he is best, he is a little worse than a man, and when he is worst, he is little better than a beast.

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Presidents get too much credit and blame.  our President doesn't have the kinda power most folks thinks he does.  Presidents who is blamed for economic woes or economic improvements is often being targeted for blame/credit which is more appropriate directed at Congress or a past administration.  'course we has rare seen a President take so much credit for stuff he didn't do. it is hard to sympathize.  f-35 cost reduction negotiated long before trump were elected?  takes credit for keeping a ford plant in the US, a plant which ford were never planning to move? has made similar claims regarding intel, sprint and general motors. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

You dedicated entirely too much thought to a news story I was mocking! :lol:

"While it is true you learn with age, the down side is what you often learn is what a damn fool you were before"

Thomas Sowell

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For the same exact reason they made up 'weapons of mass destruction' and propped up Nayirah al-Ṣabaḥ to spout the lies she did.

 

Gotta have a good casus belli to sell to the masses when you wanna invade and conquer. Making them up happens at least as often as it doesn't.

 

History is replete with them, modern times seemingly even more so.

 

It also helps to blame atrocities committed by one's own armies or that of one's allies upon the designated enemy. Which is very probably the case with the 'Halabja chemical attack'. Whoever was responsible (Iraq, Iran, or someone else), the allegations that Saddam did this didn't even occur until the late 90s in the western world, when the talking heads in the U.S./U.K. et al were constantly trying to drum up public support for a re-invasion of Iraq (even more than they try to drum up public support against Russia or Iran today).

 

No, I understand how it was useful in 2002-2003, just not in 1988 when it happened. That'd require some serious foresight in planning for a war there was no apparent reason to launch back then.

 

I'm not totally clear on what you're suggesting. Are you saying that it didn't happen or that it did happen but Iraq wasn't the perpetrator?

 

 

I'm saying what I said:

 

 

Err... not across the board. Saddam was gassing Kurds even before Kuwait.

Not one bit of evidence has ever emerged this is the case, and when people attempted to fact check those making this accusation once upon a time, they met a brick wall.

 

There's never been any good evidence made public that Saddam did what he is alleged to have done. When people inquired for some back in the '90s and through the mid '00s they met a brick wall. While I personally haven't looked into this issue in ~10+ years at this point I doubt any new credible information has made the light of day. Good luck finding some if you go looking, you're very like to need it.

 

What happened exactly? I don't know. At this point there's likely few honest people on the planet who do. I do know that the folks making the accusations have one helluva history of lying about all sorts of things, including Saddam and Iraq (as I previously mentioned two somewhat infamous examples).

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If you want to have a meaningful debate around the rise of Islamic extremism and how much blame the West has and how this has destabilized the ME, and many parts in the world,  then we need to go back to when Islamic extremism was first seen and this can become fairly subjective but for me the rise of Al-Qaeda is the most reasonable and accurate benchmark for this

Sorry Bruce, but in this case you missed the target by a few light years. AQ (and ISIS by extension) is rooted in Saudi history, or rather in the history of the house of Saud and Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab. The founder of modern extremist Islam was Sayyid Qutb. I'll leave it to you to study the history of those people, it's quite enlightening and leads directly to the modern day conflicts ;)
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“He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein

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If you want to have a meaningful debate around the rise of Islamic extremism and how much blame the West has and how this has destabilized the ME, and many parts in the world,  then we need to go back to when Islamic extremism was first seen and this can become fairly subjective but for me the rise of Al-Qaeda is the most reasonable and accurate benchmark for this

Sorry Bruce, but in this case you missed the target by a few light years. AQ (and ISIS by extension) is rooted in Saudi history, or rather in the history of the house of Saud and Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab. The founder of modern extremist Islam was Sayyid Qutb. I'll leave it to you to study the history of those people, it's quite enlightening and leads directly to the modern day conflicts ;)

 

I appreciate your input on this topic but we may be misunderstanding each other. I am interested in your view 

 

AQ  the specific terrorist organization came into existence because of the USSR Afghanistan War, check this timelines

 

 http://foreignpolicy.com/2014/03/17/al-qaeda-core-a-short-history/

 

Its quite possible if the USSR  had not invaded Afghanistan another extremist group supported primarily by ideologues in Saudi Arabia could have been born but AQ under the leadership of Bin Laden was an extension of the USSR  invasion

 

If you disagree what is your view on how AQ  was formed ?

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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If you disagree what is your view on how AQ  was formed ?

I do disagree, because looking at most things in complete isolation misses the point *for me*. Causes and effects is what interests me (hence my interest in history in general). Bin Laden was already a militant person looking for a cause before Soviet presence, which wasn't an "invasion" btw (Western bias shining through) but an intervention requested by the Afghan government. Before that he was being a good, rabid Sunni slaughtering civilians in Shia villages as the pawn of the Pakistani intelligence service. Finding a new cause more interesting than butchering villagers in Afghanistan he fought there with the mujahedeen indeed and used the Saudi and US funds to build Al-Qaeda. What turned Al-Qaeda into the "terrorist" organisation (because until then they had been "heroic freedom fighters") was the fallout between him and King Fahd over who should protect Saudi Arabia after the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait. Fahd decided to invite the US Troops (Bin Laden was adamant his Arab fighters from the Afghan war could do the job) and the result was an undying hatred of both the Saudi monarchy and the US for daring to set foot on the land of Mecca and Medina. Killing Americans (and westerners in general) became priority no. 1, even more important than killing Shia Muslims. If you want to look for a cause for the "Terror organisation" Al-Qaeda, the first Gulf war is a good place to look.

And yes, Bin Laden was an avid follower of "Qutbism" (see previous post) and Al-Qaeda had many members from radical Egyptians, not just disgruntled Saudis.

Without his leadership, it fragmented and reverted to its "base nature", killing Shia's again became a priority (leading to a break between groups like Al-Qaeda who wants to kill westerners and ISIS who wants to kill Shias).

“He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein

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Somehow I just got this image in my mind now that I can't unsee... Trump sitting in his tower with a Palantir in his lap, listening to his Masters words, knowing nothing escapes the all-seeing eye of Putin ;)

“He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein

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A BILL

To terminate the Environmental Protection Agency.

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,

SECTION 1. Termination of the Environmental Protection Agency.

The Environmental Protection Agency shall terminate on December 31, 2018.

 

 

 

US congressmen really work hard, and put thought into the things they do.

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To go with the Star Wars spin on it..

 

 


The important thing is that nothing bad can come of these intelligence leaks here in our completely indestructible Death Star.

"Cuius testiculos habeas, habeas cardia et cerebellum."

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A BILL

To terminate the Environmental Protection Agency.

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,

SECTION 1. Termination of the Environmental Protection Agency.

The Environmental Protection Agency shall terminate on December 31, 2018.

 

 

 

US congressmen really work hard, and put thought into the things they do.

 

 

I wish they would do that with the education department.

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A BILL

To terminate the Environmental Protection Agency.

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,

SECTION 1. Termination of the Environmental Protection Agency.

The Environmental Protection Agency shall terminate on December 31, 2018.

 

 

 

US congressmen really work hard, and put thought into the things they do.

 

 

I wish they would do that with the education department.

 

The Department of Education & the EPA both gone? NOW we're getting somewhere!

Edited by Guard Dog
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"While it is true you learn with age, the down side is what you often learn is what a damn fool you were before"

Thomas Sowell

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Deep state continues to try to smear Trump by illegally leaking classified info, pretty obvious they have nothing on him yet:

Several of Mr. Trump’s associates, like Mr. Manafort, have done business in Russia. And it is not unusual for American businessmen to come in contact with foreign intelligence officials, sometimes unwittingly, in countries like Russia and Ukraine, where the spy services are deeply embedded in society. Law enforcement officials did not say to what extent the contacts might have been about business.

And even the tweet you posted shows that NYT is lying, Trump said he hoped that if Russia stole the emails, it would release them, not that he hoped they stole the emails.

"Moral indignation is a standard strategy for endowing the idiot with dignity." Marshall McLuhan

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