From the Twitch Q&A: enchanting and ceiling

[illathid]

Funny part is that the reason for this change: "some players didn't like they can enchant early game weapons to maximum level" is not even true.

yes it is. I didn't like it. I assume Obsidian has decent metrics too or they wouldn't make the decision.

[AndreaColombo]

Their metrics are typically the SA crowd. Color me disappointed.

 

Hope the endgame gear is also the best looking, since we won't get to keep gear we like until the end of the game...

[tinysalamander]

By the endgame we all will be using larder doors and table legs anyway because the only thing that can kill a god is

civilization.

 

[draego]

Funny part is that the reason for this change: "some players didn't like they can enchant early game weapons to maximum level" is not even true.

 

Ye the only way i can see this being change is if enough people talk about this issue to make them change their mind. And i dont think they need to change a lot. So i dont think the unique part they want to accomplish should go away. So they said their will only by one flaming sword in the game. Thats fine and interesting and makes the game unique. Josh also mentioned one dragon slaying sword in the game also neat, but the fine to superb enhancements should change back to how poe 1 was.

[JerekKruger]

I didn't like it.

 

The thing I don't understand is this: if you didn't like it, you didn't have to do it. Is the fact that it was possible really so bad that you want to remove that possibility for everyone who did like it?

[draego]

 

I didn't like it.

 

The thing I don't understand is this: if you didn't like it, you didn't have to do it. Is the fact that it was possible really so bad that you want to remove that possibility for everyone who did like it?

 

 

I find this to be the base argument for alot of issues going around. I dont know the answer or what the line between limiting the gamer or giving option but that option is not necessarily more optimal. Maybe that is the line if what you allow is more optimal then its hard resist using that function. 

[JerekKruger]

I find this to be the base argument for alot of issues going around. I dont know the answer or what the line between limiting the gamer or giving option but that option is not necessarily more optimal. Maybe that is the line if what you allow is more optimal then its hard resist using that function.

 

Sure, but then to my mind that's a personal problem: either learn to exercise self control or accept that you don't actually mind the option as much as you thought; don't limit other people.

[hilfazer]

 

 

I didn't like it.

 

The thing I don't understand is this: if you didn't like it, you didn't have to do it. Is the fact that it was possible really so bad that you want to remove that possibility for everyone who did like it?

 

 

I find this to be the base argument for alot of issues going around. I dont know the answer or what the line between limiting the gamer or giving option but that option is not necessarily more optimal. Maybe that is the line if what you allow is more optimal then its hard resist using that function. 

 

But... "more optimal" is incorrect! It's not possible to be better than the best

 

If a player has a problem resisting doing something in a video game, which is easy because hey, it's not even real, then perhaps he should work on his willpower. I don't think video game devs should aspire to be doctors or good daddies.

[illathid]

 

I didn't like it.

 

The thing I don't understand is this: if you didn't like it, you didn't have to do it. Is the fact that it was possible really so bad that you want to remove that possibility for everyone who did like it?

 

 

I didn't like it because it removed meaningful choice from gear selection. The only thing that mattered in gear selection was what the best secondary enchantments were. I never had to make choices like I did in BG2 about using a weapon with better +x bonus or a cool property. 

[rjshae]

I just wish the enchantment system would let us bind a spell. That would make the item much more unique.

[JerekKruger]

I didn't like it because it removed meaningful choice from gear selection. The only thing that mattered in gear selection was what the best secondary enchantments were. I never had to make choices like I did in BG2 about using a weapon with better +x bonus or a cool property.

 

I'd like the see more meaningful gearing choices in PoE2, but I don't think this is the way to do it. Instead I'd like to see a larger and more varied selection of (genuinely) unique enchantments, and I'd like those enchantments to be sufficiently complicated so as to make it hard to know which one is better. Make the meaningful choice the choice between different unique enchantments, not between the quality enchantment and unique enchantments.

 

By the way, if you made this change in PoE I don't think it would have the effect you're looking for. Accuracy is far too important in PoE and if you could only bump up the quality enchantment by one tier then it wouldn't result in a meaningful choice, it would simply reduce the set of useful weapons to those which start at at least Exceptional quality. Of course, perhaps the quality enchantments are being changed in Deadfire, but I wouldn't be surprised if they remain the same.

[illathid]

 

I didn't like it because it removed meaningful choice from gear selection. The only thing that mattered in gear selection was what the best secondary enchantments were. I never had to make choices like I did in BG2 about using a weapon with better +x bonus or a cool property.

 

I'd like the see more meaningful gearing choices in PoE2, but I don't think this is the way to do it. Instead I'd like to see a larger and more varied selection of (genuinely) unique enchantments, and I'd like those enchantments to be sufficiently complicated so as to make it hard to know which one is better. Make the meaningful choice the choice between different unique enchantments, not between the quality enchantment and unique enchantments.

 

By the way, if you made this change in PoE I don't think it would have the effect you're looking for. Accuracy is far too important in PoE and if you could only bump up the quality enchantment by one tier then it wouldn't result in a meaningful choice, it would simply reduce the set of useful weapons to those which start at at least Exceptional quality. Of course, perhaps the quality enchantments are being changed in Deadfire, but I wouldn't be surprised if they remain the same.

 

 

Maybe increased accuracy is too important in pillars but at least it'll now be a consideration unlike before. If I have ultimately choose a higher quality item over one with a cool property I want that to be a painful decision.

[draego]

 

 

I didn't like it.

 

The thing I don't understand is this: if you didn't like it, you didn't have to do it. Is the fact that it was possible really so bad that you want to remove that possibility for everyone who did like it?

 

 

I didn't like it because it removed meaningful choice from gear selection. The only thing that mattered in gear selection was what the best secondary enchantments were. I never had to make choices like I did in BG2 about using a weapon with better +x bonus or a cool property. 

 

 

Maybe increased accuracy is too important in pillars but at least it'll now be a consideration unlike before. If I have ultimately choose a higher quality item over one with a cool property I want that to be a painful decision.

 

What they are suggesting is the opposite of meaningful choices. I gave an example of early flaming sword no enhancement can only be move to fine and  later corrode sword with superb enhancement can be made legendary. There is no choice in this circumstance you will take the corrode sword 100% of the time. This is what josh said would happen in tumbler you can only go one level above what you find the weapon. This is what is going to happen. Any early sword with any cool lash or ability will no longer be usable by the end of the game. I think its cool that they are taking away the lash and monster enchantment for weapons this makes it more unique but to take away the fine, superb stuff kills most of the choices by the end of the game.

Edited March 1, 2017 by jnb0364

[molotov.]

TL;DR: To be completely plain and sincere, I think it's quite a dumb idea, not balance wise, but RP wise.


PoE is a RPG game, a lot of people, ****.. I'll be bold, everyone plays RPGs with some RP element in mind, it can be something small or something big, but everyone does. To ilustrate why I think it's a bad idea - RP wise - I'll tell a story about a weapon in the game.

I entered Caed Nua, full of fears, but I gathered my strenght and destroyed every single phantom in the yard, after the battle I had a vision of a ghost who told me a story about soldiers and fire, after the vision I realized that the ghost was near a big door, it was a strange welcoming.
That door was the entrance to the main hall, the first thing I saw was a sword, her name was "Whispers of Yenwood", after reading her lore I realized that the sword chose me as her leader, it was something so new and cool to me. I used her in the entire game - well... almost the entire game my GPU died in chapter 3-, some of the npcs even noticed her, it was amazing, I never experienced something like that in a game. Now... they will just remove that possibility? Why?

 

Edited March 1, 2017 by molotov.

[JerekKruger]

Maybe increased accuracy is too important in pillars but at least it'll now be a consideration unlike before. If I have ultimately choose a higher quality item over one with a cool property I want that to be a painful decision.

 

Why does the painful decision have to be between a cool property and a higher quality; why can't it be between one cool property and another cool property? How is the choice between weak or boring more desirable than the choice between cool and other-cool?

[Boeroer]

Maybe another reason behind this is that it will boost soulbound weapons' usefulness.

Since those will improve their quality automatically through the binding process, they don't have the restriction of "enchant it to +1 quality at max".

 

Remember: a lot of players complained that the new fancy souldbound weapons where in fact inferior to gear that you excessively enchanted yourself. Mainly because elemental lashes and durgan steel are so powerful and you can't put that neat stuff on soulbound weapons.

 

But instead of giving soulbounds similar powerful bonuses in the later stages they now decided to limit the gear that could surpass them. Concerning lashes, it's totally ok for me. Not every weapon has to have a fancy elemental effect and it might indeed make things more interesting if enchantments are restricted in a way so that they fit to the weapon and it's unique features. But limiting the quality enchantmens to tier +1 is just wrong. It takes away options and severely punishes people who fancy style and appearance over power. Thus it punishes roleplayers most, not the powergamers.

 

To avoid boredom in the late game when it comes to choice of weapons/shields/armors and so on, OBS will have to place a LOT of different high quality weapons. But I don't think they will go this way.

 

A way out of this would be an enchantment that turns any normal weapon/shield/armor into a soulbound with individual binding steps that you can create. Basically a class build for a weapon. You could limit this enchantment to 1/playthrough like Cladhaliath was. That would be a cool feature...

Or just allow to enchant ONE weapon/shield/armor to the max tier with cool enchantments through some scripted interaction.

 

That way you could have it all. You could drag one or two low level items from start to finish and at the same time prevent that all the low level stuff may surpass soulbounds.

 

Think about it: you could share character builds AND custom item builds. Awesome!

Edited March 1, 2017 by Boeroer

[prototype00]

Y'know Boroer, I was pretty confused as to why they were doing this too, but your mention of Soulbound equipment made it all click!

 

So many people were complaining that Soulbound weapons lacked zing in the first game, well now they are the best thing going. Makes total sense!

[Lorfean]

I don't mind the PoE system, but I know I enjoyed IWD, BG and BG2's itemization more, which I guess means that I prefer the ~*feeling*~ of replacing my equipment to continuously enchanting the same items over and over throughout the course of the game. And this new, more restricted approach seems like it might bring PoE2 itemization closer to the way things felt in those IE games, which is a positive in my book. *shrug*

 

Then again, I'm not a power gamer or min maxer so I guess I don't feel you guys' pain.

[JerekKruger]

Good point on soulbound items Boeroer, though I think the simple act of not having Durgan steel would go most the way towards achieving parity between them and normal items. I also agree that limiting lashes is fine, and probably finishes the job of equalising soulbound items too.

 

@Lorfean: I think I preferred the itemisation in the old IE games too (I definitely preferred it to vanilla PoE, which was rather bland, but the White March expansions added some cool items). However my problem with this new change isn't due to me being a power gamer, since I don't think I really am. Instead it's the loss of aesthetic options that it brings: I have a really cool looking sword or a weapon that has a really cool effect but it under performs so much as to make the game unenjoyable that I'll have to replace it with something less cool. This is pretty much the definition of anti-fun to me.

[illathid]

 

Maybe increased accuracy is too important in pillars but at least it'll now be a consideration unlike before. If I have ultimately choose a higher quality item over one with a cool property I want that to be a painful decision.

 

Why does the painful decision have to be between a cool property and a higher quality; why can't it be between one cool property and another cool property? How is the choice between weak or boring more desirable than the choice between cool and other-cool?

 

 

You're presenting a false dichotomy. I'm assuming there will be lots of cool properties, if there's not then that's an entirely different problem. With the PoE1 enchantment system, quality is never a factor in choosing weapons. With the proposed system you'll have to both properties and quality when determine which equipment to use.

[JerekKruger]

You're presenting a false dichotomy. I'm assuming there will be lots of cool properties, if there's not then that's an entirely different problem. With the PoE1 enchantment system, quality is never a factor in choosing weapons. With the proposed system you'll have to both properties and quality when determine which equipment to use.

 

Well realistically, based on what we've seen in PoE*, you're not going to get the difficult decision you've described because the higher quality weapons will also have secondary properties, so your choice will be between a weapon with a cool property, and a higher quality weapon with a different cool property.

 

Maybe that seems fun to you, but to me it's basically limiting the selection of cool properties available to me, and that's no fun at all.

 

*Every single Superb weapon in PoE has secondary properties as well. There are no generic Superb weapons.

[draego]

 

 

Maybe increased accuracy is too important in pillars but at least it'll now be a consideration unlike before. If I have ultimately choose a higher quality item over one with a cool property I want that to be a painful decision.

 

Why does the painful decision have to be between a cool property and a higher quality; why can't it be between one cool property and another cool property? How is the choice between weak or boring more desirable than the choice between cool and other-cool?

 

 

You're presenting a false dichotomy. I'm assuming there will be lots of cool properties, if there's not then that's an entirely different problem. With the PoE1 enchantment system, quality is never a factor in choosing weapons. With the proposed system you'll have to both properties and quality when determine which equipment to use.

 

 

I dont see how properties will be any deciding factor the first an only factor will be quality then maybe property. lets say you have 20 unique swords total in the game 10 early to mid and the rest later. The 10 early to mid will never be a consideration even if they have cool unique properties because the later 10 will have better quality to start and upgrade. And we know the 10 early swords will have unique never replicated properties. So if you find a flaming sword early you wont get one late. This new system is making quality the primary choice not properties. It is having the opposite affect because it basically forces the player to trash most weapons simply based on quality before even considering properties. 

Edited March 1, 2017 by jnb0364

[hilfazer]

 

With the PoE1 enchantment system, quality is never a factor in choosing weapons.

 

You must be a player who cares only (or mostly) about his PC. Nothing wrong with that but there are players who care about their whole 6 person party and they can't enchant 12 or how many weapons their party needs to Legendary. For such players there's still a lot of that choice you are talking about.

 

Also, quality is a factor when you still can't enchant to that level. You can find superb items before lvl 12 but you can't enchant superb before you reach it. Sure, it stops to matter when you reach level high enough but endgame is not everything that matters.

[illathid]

 

 

 

Maybe increased accuracy is too important in pillars but at least it'll now be a consideration unlike before. If I have ultimately choose a higher quality item over one with a cool property I want that to be a painful decision.

 

Why does the painful decision have to be between a cool property and a higher quality; why can't it be between one cool property and another cool property? How is the choice between weak or boring more desirable than the choice between cool and other-cool?

 

 

You're presenting a false dichotomy. I'm assuming there will be lots of cool properties, if there's not then that's an entirely different problem. With the PoE1 enchantment system, quality is never a factor in choosing weapons. With the proposed system you'll have to both properties and quality when determine which equipment to use.

 

 

I dont see how properties will be any deciding factor the first an only factor will be quality then maybe property. lets say you have 20 unique swords total in the game 10 early to mid and the rest later. The 10 early to mid will never be a consideration even if they have cool unique properties because the later 10 will have better quality to start and upgrade. And we know the 10 early swords will have unique never replicated properties. So if you find a flaming sword early you wont get one late. So this new system is making quality the primary choice not properties. It is having the opposite affect because it basically forces the player to trash most weapons simply based on quality before even considering properties. 

 

 

I'd argue the system is doing the exact opposite. But we still don't know enough about the system to be sure (maybe the accuracy delta between different quality levels will be smaller, maybe properties will have a much greater proportional effect, etc.). I trust Josh as a designer and believe he and the rest of the team will be able to make a enchantment system that's better than what we got in PoE.

[JerekKruger]

I trust Josh as a designer and believe he and the rest of the team will be able to make a enchantment system that's better than what we got in PoE.

 

Yeah, I hope so.