edumication fael

[Ben No.3]

 

So tell me, Meshugger, what arguments aside from "it's always been this way, it has been this way for a reason, that's just how it works" do you have? What rational reason can you give me as to why a woman should be worth less than a man, why a woman shouldn't be able to decide over her own fait.

 

 

No one is inheritly worth less than the other. When left to their own devices in affluence and in freedom, these gender roles as you call them are strenghtened. Men and women have simply different interests at heart. Men create hierarchies and compete with each within them and women choose the winners within those. It is manifested in your work force, in sports and in your very group of friends. We see it in our democratic processes as we elect leaders representing us. Not even the Soviet was without exception as there as well an inner circle was quickly developed.

 

It is simply reality, of which the nuclear family is the very microcosmos of. Trying to undermine that and you destroy society.

Did I just write half an essay on why the argument "that's just a way it is" is both false and worthless just so you responded basically saying "that's just the way it is"? Edited February 1, 2017 by Ben No.3

[Amentep]

 

These threads are always hilarious after the first page. Surprised Texans are into ID, never thought they were Florida type dumb

It was just an example of the Federal government overriding the will of the voters who actually PAY for the schools whose districts they live in. Allowing the governed to have a say in their governance is a radical concept I know. But I don't want this to turn into a discussion on the merits of ID. It was just an example. Looking at YOU aluminiumtrioxid!

 

But you are right about your other point. Somehow all our threads end up being derailed into the pros and cons of socialism. It does get tiring.

 

 

While I understand your point regarding the Federal government, it was pretty messed up (IMO) to have the content of education be up for a popular vote in the first place.

[Wrath of Dagon]

 

Thanks. So in this case, your point is that state run schools have proven able to take on good ideas and stay on top of the latest education strategies, while federal involvement hasn't done much for actual teaching quality since it got hands dirty in the 70s? It's good to get the specific reasons, because they are certainly more substantial than a blanket wish for local government in any subject.

 

That plus the expansion of Federal Government control over what is or isn't taught in schools means a total loss of local and state control. If there is something your local government is doing that you don't like or want to see done better it is easy to reach out to the people who can make a change. If the Federal Government is doing something you don't like, tough luck. A recent example is the argument over whether Intelligent Design should have been taught alongside Evolution in Texas public schools. The voters of Texas who pay the taxes wanted it. the Federal Government said no. Whether you agree with ID or not, it's still up to the voters how live in the school districts to say what or how their children are taught IMO. That is lost once Big Brother is involved.

 

Do you have a link to that? I have a hard time believing we let feds tell us what to teach. Not that I support teaching ID.

 

 

 

You can name a communist state without cult of personality?

Of course.

 

Since a state can't be communist by definition, I'll refer to socialist states. I will also only imclude states that have socialism in their constitution up until today, and I will site the part of the constitution I'm referring to. I'll also include their form of government.

 

I didn't ask you about socialism, I asked you about states commonly referred to as "communist" not for your own definition. The rest of your post is complete bullcrap as usual.

[Hurlshort]

Actually Texas has made it illegal to teach some of the Federally mandated curriculum, like Common Core. But then again, they adopted new standards that are very similar. I don't know, Texas is pretty crazy when it comes to education. But none of this matters all that much, because content is nowhere near as important as skill development, which thankfully no one political pays that close attention to and any decent teacher knows that should be the primary focus of education.

[Guard Dog]

 

 

These threads are always hilarious after the first page. Surprised Texans are into ID, never thought they were Florida type dumb

It was just an example of the Federal government overriding the will of the voters who actually PAY for the schools whose districts they live in. Allowing the governed to have a say in their governance is a radical concept I know. But I don't want this to turn into a discussion on the merits of ID. It was just an example. Looking at YOU aluminiumtrioxid!

 

But you are right about your other point. Somehow all our threads end up being derailed into the pros and cons of socialism. It does get tiring.

 

 

While I understand your point regarding the Federal government, it was pretty messed up (IMO) to have the content of education be up for a popular vote in the first place.

 

That wasn't really how it worked. Texas has a commission of the State Government that reviews text books and other class material. It works with local school boards and other groups to approve what is taught and used. One of the books included ID as a subject to be discussed in addition to evolution. Not to exclude it it. The federal government wen high and to the right over that and threatened to withhold funding if the material was used.  That money was tax dollars collected from Texas taxpayers. Now THAT is intrusion.

 

You know come to that I remember a similar row, I think it was also in Texas (not sure) about how State history was being taught. In that instance too the Federal Government intervened in a very heavy handed way.

Edited February 1, 2017 by Guard Dog

[Ben No.3]

 

 

Thanks. So in this case, your point is that state run schools have proven able to take on good ideas and stay on top of the latest education strategies, while federal involvement hasn't done much for actual teaching quality since it got hands dirty in the 70s? It's good to get the specific reasons, because they are certainly more substantial than a blanket wish for local government in any subject.

That plus the expansion of Federal Government control over what is or isn't taught in schools means a total loss of local and state control. If there is something your local government is doing that you don't like or want to see done better it is easy to reach out to the people who can make a change. If the Federal Government is doing something you don't like, tough luck. A recent example is the argument over whether Intelligent Design should have been taught alongside Evolution in Texas public schools. The voters of Texas who pay the taxes wanted it. the Federal Government said no. Whether you agree with ID or not, it's still up to the voters how live in the school districts to say what or how their children are taught IMO. That is lost once Big Brother is involved.

Do you have a link to that? I have a hard time believing we let feds tell us what to teach. Not that I support teaching ID.

 

 

 

You can name a communist state without cult of personality?

Of course.

 

Since a state can't be communist by definition, I'll refer to socialist states. I will also only imclude states that have socialism in their constitution up until today, and I will site the part of the constitution I'm referring to. I'll also include their form of government.

I didn't ask you about socialism, I asked you about states commonly referred to as "communist" not for your own definition. The rest of your post is complete bullcrap as usual.

Calling states socialism because they refer to themselves as socialist is wrong?

 

Alright, let's see... we agree that Lenin was a communist? Lenin didn't care about persona cult.

 

The Problem is that you think communism=dictatorship, and almost all dictatorships rely on personality cult. So the comparison would be, according to your rules, quite unfair.

 

Let's clear up some terminology here... what do you think "communism" is?

Edited February 1, 2017 by Ben No.3

[Guard Dog]

Actually Texas has made it illegal to teach some of the Federally mandated curriculum, like Common Core. But then again, they adopted new standards that are very similar. I don't know, Texas is pretty crazy when it comes to education. But none of this matters all that much, because content is nowhere near as important as skill development, which thankfully no one political pays that close attention to and any decent teacher knows that should be the primary focus of education.

I had a teacher in 10th grade that I credit to this day for kindling a love of history that I still have today. His class emphasized critical thinking over rote memorization. It was a European History class and he focused his entire lesson plans on cause and effect rather than facts and dates. And I was fascinated. Of course back in those days teachers had a lot more latitude that I expect you do now.

[Hurlshort]

 

Let's clear up some terminology here... what do you think "communism" is?

 

 

A Utopian ideal that young people tend to cling to?

[Malcador]

The best government system in Civ 2?

[Guard Dog]

 

 

Let's clear up some terminology here... what do you think "communism" is?

 

 

A Utopian ideal that young people tend to cling to?

 

[Ben No.3]

Yes yes communism is an unrealistic utopia, but so is capitalism, so what is defining for communism?

Edited February 1, 2017 by Ben No.3

[Guard Dog]

Yes yes communism is an unrealistic utopia, but so is capitalism, so what is defining for communism?

Mass graves? Draconian prison sentences for speaking out? Labor camps? Should I go on?

[Ben No.3]

 

Yes yes communism is an unrealistic utopia, but so is capitalism, so what is defining for communism?

Mass graves? Draconian prison sentences for speaking out? Labor camps? Should I go on?

Weren't we talking about unrealistic utopias?

 

Anyway, I'd define communism as an economic system in which private property is abolished. Consequently, the dictatorships you are referring to can be defied as state capitalism.

Edited February 1, 2017 by Ben No.3

[Hurlshort]

 

I had a teacher in 10th grade that I credit to this day for kindling a love of history that I still have today. His class emphasized critical thinking over rote memorization. It was a European History class and he focused his entire lesson plans on cause and effect rather than facts and dates. And I was fascinated. Of course back in those days teachers had a lot more latitude that I expect you do now.

 

 

I have that same latitude and that is the way I run my classroom. I'm telling you, the classroom experience and the job of the teacher has not changed that much in the last century. Good teachers are going to ignore all the noise that parents, politicians, and administrators throw around, and good students are going to take advantage of those lessons. 

 

Although let me clarify when I say good teacher. This isn't a simple label. Almost every teacher is going to have good days, students they connect with, moments of inspiration that capture the imagination. As you gain experience you can collect those moments and hopefully recapture them regularly. But at the same time every teacher will also have bad days, students who hate them, and lessons that flop. A good teacher to me is the one that can ride out the storms, stay enthusiastic, tune in for the students and tune out the bad stuff. 

 

The teachers in Texas and the teachers in California are all fundamentally the same.

Edited February 1, 2017 by Hurlshot

[Amentep]

 

 

 

These threads are always hilarious after the first page. Surprised Texans are into ID, never thought they were Florida type dumb

It was just an example of the Federal government overriding the will of the voters who actually PAY for the schools whose districts they live in. Allowing the governed to have a say in their governance is a radical concept I know. But I don't want this to turn into a discussion on the merits of ID. It was just an example. Looking at YOU aluminiumtrioxid!

 

But you are right about your other point. Somehow all our threads end up being derailed into the pros and cons of socialism. It does get tiring.

 

 

While I understand your point regarding the Federal government, it was pretty messed up (IMO) to have the content of education be up for a popular vote in the first place.

 

That wasn't really how it worked. Texas has a commission of the State Government that reviews text books and other class material. It works with local school boards and other groups to approve what is taught and used. One of the books included ID as a subject to be discussed in addition to evolution. Not to exclude it it. The federal government wen high and to the right over that and threatened to withhold funding if the material was used.  That money was tax dollars collected from Texas taxpayers. Now THAT is intrusion.

 

You know come to that I remember a similar row, I think it was also in Texas (not sure) about how State history was being taught. In that instance too the Federal Government intervened in a very heavy handed way.

 

 

Okay, I rolled with your description even though I couldn't find an instance of a popular vote in Texas on the topic.  Regarding withholding funding that's the lasso the national government uses (if you don't adopt this thing, you don't get this funding).  Comes up here every few years when people argue the state is 'losing' money by not requiring farmers to buckle up when they're in their pickups and farm equipment because there's certain federal funds the state doesn't get by not passing that law as a requirement (which they don't do because the farmers believe it'll add extra time to their work schedules, etc).  Of course its not really 'losing' money if you never had it to begin with.

 

Anyhow, the federal dollars withheld wouldn't have been exclusively collected from Texas, would it?

 

Changes that happen with Texas and California text books tend to be popular national topics because, generally speaking, the text book companies, to maximize profits, tailor books to the standard of one of those two states and all the other states have to pick which one they'd rather have.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 

India and all these countries are socialist

I think KP is going to have an aneurysm.

Arguing with Bruce and socdems has immunized me.

[Meshugger]

 

No one is inheritly worth less than the other. When left to their own devices in affluence and in freedom, these gender roles as you call them are strenghtened. Men and women have simply different interests at heart. Men create hierarchies and compete with each within them and women choose the winners within those. It is manifested in your work force, in sports and in your very group of friends. We see it in our democratic processes as we elect leaders representing us. Not even the Soviet was without exception as there as well an inner circle was quickly developed.

 

It is simply reality, of which the nuclear family is the very microcosmos of. Trying to undermine that and you destroy society.

Hmm, not buying it. The gravitational constant expressed in Planck units (1) is "reality". The nuclear family is, perhaps, and at most, an evolutionarily stable strategy. Meaning, subject to change as (socioeconomic) conditions change, and it is no longer inherently disadvantageous to adopt other approaches. Society will be destroyed only when people are destroyed. We are gregarious beings. Change does not imply destruction in absolute terms, even if the process is sometimes destructive.

 

Here's the thing: men and men have simply different interests at heart. Male nurses, ever heard of them?

 

And the "winner takes all" explanation wrt human mating is... incredibly simplistic. You mean only the CEOs and MVPs are getting some? If it's so simple, why don't you just find uglier friends?

 

 

Nah, looks will do silch alone. More like people on  top of hierarchies have more oppurtunities opened up for them than for others. People like winners in general after all. It's not a rigid if-else scenario. As for exceptions from the norm, that's what makes makes life so fun and unpredictable, much to the worries of all these busybodies who try plan society like a game of civilization.

 

 

 

So tell me, Meshugger, what arguments aside from "it's always been this way, it has been this way for a reason, that's just how it works" do you have? What rational reason can you give me as to why a woman should be worth less than a man, why a woman shouldn't be able to decide over her own fait.

 

No one is inheritly worth less than the other. When left to their own devices in affluence and in freedom, these gender roles as you call them are strenghtened. Men and women have simply different interests at heart. Men create hierarchies and compete with each within them and women choose the winners within those. It is manifested in your work force, in sports and in your very group of friends. We see it in our democratic processes as we elect leaders representing us. Not even the Soviet was without exception as there as well an inner circle was quickly developed.

 

It is simply reality, of which the nuclear family is the very microcosmos of. Trying to undermine that and you destroy society.

Did I just write half an essay on why the argument "that's just a way it is" is both false and worthless just so you responded basically saying "that's just the way it is"?

 

 

We aren't even equal in length of text, let that be a lesson for you.

 

Joking aside, i made the argument that no one is less worth as a human being in themselves compared to another, followed how human societies work in reality. My point had little to do with wealth accumulation, which you seemed to have missed.

 

I have derailed this long enough. Back to debating within the system of productivity, consumerism and the distributions of these, as that seems to be more essential for human progress for most of you guys. 

Edited February 1, 2017 by Meshugger

[Wrath of Dagon]

Calling states socialism because they refer to themselves as socialist is wrong?

 

Alright, let's see... we agree that Lenin was a communist? Lenin didn't care about persona cult.

 

The Problem is that you think communism=dictatorship, and almost all dictatorships rely on personality cult. So the comparison would be, according to your rules, quite unfair.

 

Let's clear up some terminology here... what do you think "communism" is?

You implied because NK is a cult of personality dictatorship, it's not communist. I pointed out that all communist countries are cult of personality dictatorships. They're commonly referred to as "communist" because they are ruled by the communist party, not because they actually achieved communism. No state could call itself "communist" because there are no states under communism.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Yes yes communism is an unrealistic utopia, but so is capitalism, so what is defining for communism?

Capitalism isn't a utopia(and if your idea of utopia involves working for someone else 40 hours a week you are a probably a masochist) and it is the global economic system of today, just because some idiot says it's not real capitalism because muh corporations doesn't change that. Now please follow the link below and actually read Marx because it's clear you've read a wiki article at best.

 

https://www.marxists.org

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

 

Let's clear up some terminology here... what do you think "communism" is?

 

 

A Utopian ideal that young people tend to cling to?

 

 

My favorite summary is "Capitalism is the unequal distribution of wealth. Communism is the equal distribution of poverty.".

[Amentep]

(and if your idea of utopia involves working for someone else 40 hours a week you are a probably a masochist)

Of course the 40 hour work week was a way to not have workers doing a 12-20 hour work day. And of course back in the day, if you owned a store, you lived at the store (usually above the store or in a backroom) and were available 24/7 to your small community. It wasn't that different if you were a farmer or other job.

 

That doesn't make 40 hours a week awesome, but just trying to add perspective to it.  A lot of theorists in the 20s (IIRC) figured the work week would be 3 days by now (again IIRC).

[Gfted1]

I wish I could work 4, 10 hour days and have three days off.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

To get this back on topic...

 

"“If we’ve been giving kids worksheets with simplistic answers for years and then get upset when they can’t write a five-paragraph essay or recognize subject-verb agreement, that’s not the kids,” she said. “That’s us.”"

As someone who went to public school in Texas, I have to agree with this. In my senior year I took a class called College Algebra that doubled as a credit for College, Math 1308 or 1314 I think. Anyways most of the class consisted of getting worksheets with simplistic problems and childlike puzzles like "what did the farmer say to the pig". I think I got a C in the class, because I would never did the classwork or homework and would only wake up t take a quiz or a test, which I would make an 85 as my lowest score. And that class wasn't unique in its simplicity.

 

Admittedly I didn't do very well in high school, did way too many drugs and rarely did homework or classwork. Almost failed in English because I didn't do a paper and a project. Always did very well on tests and my SAT score was impressive, or at least some advisors I talked to said as much, but not doing half the work tends to negatively impact your score. I blame boredom more than anything, all of my teachers were ****, I got less out of classes listening to them than I did skimming wikipedia articles or reading the textbook, classes consisted of reviewing information to take tests or dumb worksheets, and there was no challenge or learning involved.

 

I don't have any concrete solutions to fire off the hip and blanket statements like "we need to encourage imagination" are meaningless tripe that don't add anything to the discussion. But there is a major problem with the US public education system and judging by what 'tep has said it's only gotten worse. I'm gonna go back to work now, have fun.

[Meshugger]

To get this back on topic...

 

"“If we’ve been giving kids worksheets with simplistic answers for years and then get upset when they can’t write a five-paragraph essay or recognize subject-verb agreement, that’s not the kids,” she said. “That’s us.”"

As someone who went to public school in Texas, I have to agree with this. In my senior year I took a class called College Algebra that doubled as a credit for College, Math 1308 or 1314 I think. Anyways most of the class consisted of getting worksheets with simplistic problems and childlike puzzles like "what did the farmer say to the pig". I think I got a C in the class, because I would never did the classwork or homework and would only wake up t take a quiz or a test, which I would make an 85 as my lowest score. And that class wasn't unique in its simplicity.

 

Admittedly I didn't do very well in high school, did way too many drugs and rarely did homework or classwork. Almost failed in English because I didn't do a paper and a project. Always did very well on tests and my SAT score was impressive, or at least some advisors I talked to said as much, but not doing half the work tends to negatively impact your score. I blame boredom more than anything, all of my teachers were ****, I got less out of classes listening to them than I did skimming wikipedia articles or reading the textbook, classes consisted of reviewing information to take tests or dumb worksheets, and there was no challenge or learning involved.

 

I don't have any concrete solutions to fire off the hip and blanket statements like "we need to encourage imagination" are meaningless tripe that don't add anything to the discussion. But there is a major problem with the US public education system and judging by what 'tep has said it's only gotten worse. I'm gonna go back to work now, have fun.

 

 

The bold part sounds eerily familiar. 

Edited February 1, 2017 by Meshugger

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

How so?