Politics 2017 part II

[Ben No.3]

We left of at the Middle East?

[Ben No.3]

Now, Volourn, I can lay that out in more detail, and I probably will, but do tell me why you think the Middle East falls back from secular democratic heads of state to religious fundamentalism.

[Volourn]

I don't care why. If your 'fall back' is esxtremism. If your fall back is hatred. If your fallback is murdering people who have the same religion as you but practice differently than you, I'm not gonna give you a break. And, whining 'big bad west' doesn't impress. ISIS is a Muslim organization that murders, rapes, and enslaves other Muslims. That is a problem with Islam. Not the West.

 

Again, the West isn't perfect (too many  inteverence in other countries no matter the reason).

 

Again, I ask, if the West is so horrible and if Muslims hate the West so much... why do they want to migrate her so badly? Why not stay in the beautiful Islmaic states... you know where they have freedom to practice religion, freedom to live their lives, freedom to do whatever.

 

Also, if the West is so awful.. whya re Westerners trying to get out en masse?

 

Hmm..

[Ben No.3]

I don't care why. If your 'fall back' is esxtremism. If your fall back is hatred. If your fallback is murdering people who have the same religion as you but practice differently than you, I'm not gonna give you a break. And, whining 'big bad west' doesn't impress. ISIS is a Muslim organization that murders, rapes, and enslaves other Muslims. That is a problem with Islam. Not the West.

 

Again, the West isn't perfect (too many inteverence in other countries no matter the reason).

 

Again, I ask, if the West is so horrible and if Muslims hate the West so much... why do they want to migrate her so badly? Why not stay in the beautiful Islmaic states... you know where they have freedom to practice religion, freedom to live their lives, freedom to do whatever.

 

Also, if the West is so awful.. whya re Westerners trying to get out en masse?

 

Hmm..

Please try to separate between historical events, philosophical argument and sociological theory.

 

Yes, we consider humanistic values to be superior to religious ones. This is a philosophical argument, and it affects the Muslim terrorists in the Middle East just as much as the christian ones in Africa.

 

The question of why. You say you don't care. I think you should. It is critically important to understand why societies can fall back to sich poor states, since it can happen to anyone and we should learn how to avoid that. To learn why fundamentalism is on the rise is to learn how it can be fixed and avoided in the future.

[Guard Dog]

Remember that giant meteor joke we all laughed at during the election? It doesn't sound half bad now does it?

[Gromnir]

Remember that giant meteor joke we all laughed at during the election? It doesn't sound half bad now does it?

still sounds bad.  on the other hand, trump having a pope benedict epiphany would be nice.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[HoonDing]

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2017/jan/20/donald-trump-first-100-days-president-daily-updates

 

useful resource

[Wrath of Dagon]

Some explanations of the executive order: http://www.nationalreview.com/article/444370/donald-trump-refugee-executive-order-no-muslim-ban-separating-fact-hysteria

 

The country names aren't in the executive order, they seem to come from some prior State Department list of countries with active Jihadist movements. The thing about Green Card holders is baffling. There's nothing about Green Cards in the executive order, why DHS would interpret it that way is strange, as Green Card holders have rights under the law which can not be taken away by an executive order. May be some confusion or misreporting here. Would be a lot fewer problems also if they just stopped issuing new visas instead of not honoring existing ones.

 

Edit: White House clarifies Green Card holders aren't banned, but may be questioned under some circumstances: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/29/us/politics/white-house-official-in-reversal-says-green-card-holders-wont-be-barred.html?smid=pl-share&_r=1

Edited January 29, 2017 by Wrath of Dagon

[HoonDing]

How do you feel about a Leninist like Bannon being de facto president? Better or worse than a Stalinist?

[Leferd]

[Leferd]

https://twitter.com/abrahamjoseph/status/825583108485414913

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9GKL6i38pI&feature=youtu.be&t=3m7s

 

 

[Volourn]

I love fake news and getting suckered by it and then finding out that even when I give them a shot it is bogus. Just found out by an anti Trumper that it was even Trump who basically picked those 7 countries... the diea to ban those countries came from... OBAMA. LMAO

Edited January 30, 2017 by Volourn

[Gromnir]

(links)

am not sure who is authoring these orders, but they is a mess. somebody in the wh thought an overt muslim ban would be illegal but seemed to forget how a christian preference would be equal problematic?  

 

trump coulda' saved himself a whole lotta future headaches by getting input from a few o' the numerous and competent lawyers he gots at his disposal as head o' the executive branch. 

 

if we were a conspiracy nut, we might suggest trump were purpose penning terrible drafted orders.  if such orders get killed by Courts or functional invalidated by Congress, then trump can blame his failure on lack o' government cooperation.  if these orders were to stand, then when they failed to achieve goals, who would trump blame?  

 

too complex.  is simple ignorance on the part o' the folks in the wh.

 

...

 

but which is worse: ignorance or contrivance?

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Leferd]

 

(links)

am not sure who is authoring these orders, but they is a mess. somebody in the wh thought an overt muslim ban would be illegal but seemed to forget how a christian preference would be equal problematic?  

 

trump coulda' saved himself a whole lotta future headaches by getting input from a few o' the numerous and competent lawyers he gots at his disposal as head o' the executive branch. 

 

if we were a conspiracy nut, we might suggest trump were purpose penning terrible drafted orders.  if such orders get killed by Courts or functional invalidated by Congress, then trump can blame his failure on lack o' government cooperation.  if these orders were to stand, then when they failed to achieve goals, who would trump blame?  

 

too complex.  is simple ignorance on the part o' the folks in the wh.

 

...

 

but which is worse: ignorance or contrivance?

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

Several WH reporters are saying it's Bannon and Miller who are spearheading these efforts.

[BruceVC]

I love fake news and getting suckered by it and then finding out that even when I give them a shot it is bogus. Just found out by an anti Trumper that it was even Trump who basically picked those 7 countries... the diea to ban those countries came from... OBAMA. LMAO

volo I hope you are aware you are one of the people who is responsible for this phenomena of fake news and alternative facts,  think of how you make posts and say things that are complete exaggeration or just your misplaced views. And you seem unconcerned about how preposterous it may sound.  The good news is I am completely unaffected by fake news as my sources are scanned as credible. And you do make valid points as well 

 

Its not such a terrible thing as it will pass in 12-18 months ?  

[redneckdevil]

Ben, lets give a realllllll simple example.

Christianity did some horrible things like the crusades and the witch hunts. BUT when a bunch of christians formed a country, we get America who is the founding example of the world in human rights and technology and business practices. As an Irish man who family came to America as slaves, slaves doesn't hold a "omg ur evil!" feel to me, you know why? I want you to name me just 1 empire that didn't have slaves.

Islam has been out for just as long as Christianity and have they progressed anywhere near what we have in America? Why is a such a nation that was founded on Christianity progress so much farther and isn't in the dark ages still? Because we had the knowledge to keep religion away from government. That doesn't mean that there haven't been any christians in our govt to influence our laws and practices, it means that you don't HAVE to be Christian to influence our laws and practices. We swallow things that goes against the faith.

 

If what's going on in the Middle East is due to Islam practices, then dammit it's the problem. The ME is trying to practice a theocracy and rejects going against Islam thru violence and hate. It's a problem because they WONT separate the religion from government and laws. **** sake, sharia law you allow is doing exactly that, keeping religion and government together. So please tell how that is not a problem. Islam by itself is not a problem, it's the separation of govt and religion that is and you in favor of sharia law is continuing the damn problem. Of course u can explain why keeping religion and government together is such a great idea and not a problem.

 

 

Also the report of the refugee drowning and people getting pissed about not jumping in......has any ever taken life guard classes? That's a ****ing horrible idea if ur not trained and even if you ARE trained because in most cases the person drowning freaks out and causes whoever trying to help to drown as well. That's why u throw **** at them and get them floating then rescue them, otherwise ur causing more people to be in danger.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

slaves doesn't hold a "omg ur evil!" feel to me

[Volourn]

"volo I hope you are aware you are one of the people who is responsible for this phenomena of fake news and alternative facts,  think of how you make posts and say things that are complete exaggeration or just your misplaced views. And you seem unconcerned about how preposterous it may sound.  The good news is I am completely unaffected by fake news as my sources are scanned as credible. And you do make valid points as well "

 

Everything I state is true.

 

 

Also, all this whining about the US banning 'Muslims' (they arne't banning Muslims but countries)... I don't hear crying about the multiple countries banning Isrealis/Jews. LMAO

[HoonDing]

"we get America who is the founding example of the world in human rights and technology and business practices."

 

"we"?

[Wrath of Dagon]

How do you feel about a Leninist like Bannon being de facto president? Better or worse than a Stalinist?

Bannon has a lot of influence, as he should, since Trump ran and won on Jeff Sessions', Bannon's and Stephen Miller's platform, Sessions being the primary here, the other two following. And how exactly is Bannon a Leninist? I mean I know you're trolling, but do you have any basis in fact?

[BruceVC]

"we get America who is the founding example of the world in human rights and technology and business practices."

 

"we"?

I would say its not the example of human rights but the other  things are true?

[Malcador]

How does Islam progress compared to a country ? Interesting rant for sure, but not sure how that comparison works.

Edited January 30, 2017 by Malcador

[Agiel]

[HoonDing]

Bannon has a lot of influence, as he should, since Trump ran and won on Jeff Sessions', Bannon's and Stephen Miller's platform, Sessions being the primary here, the other two following. And how exactly is Bannon a Leninist? I mean I know you're trolling, but do you have any basis in fact?

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/08/22/steve-bannon-trump-s-top-guy-told-me-he-was-a-leninist.html

[Calax]

Islam has been out for just as long as Christianity and have they progressed anywhere near what we have in America? Why is a such a nation that was founded on Christianity progress so much farther and isn't in the dark ages still? Because we had the knowledge to keep religion away from government. That doesn't mean that there haven't been any christians in our govt to influence our laws and practices, it means that you don't HAVE to be Christian to influence our laws and practices. We swallow things that goes against the faith.

This is a ridiculous apples to oranges argument but ok, let's deal with it. In terms of science and technology Islam has contributed FAR more than you could possibly imagine. Algebra is Arabic in origin, YOU COUNT IN ARABIC NUMERALS! While Europe (and thus christianity) was going through a regressive dark ages, the Islamic states were flourishing beacons of culture and innovation. Byzantium became the Islamic Ottoman Empire which has been credited as one of the outstanding actors in politics of it's era. The only reason that Europe had a resurgence was because a whole bunch of people died, meaning that serfdom (which was reinforced by the church as the "Divine Right of Kings") was no longer a viable system of government. Even then the only reason they really got far ahead was because the European governments were funding (via governments) expeditions to the new world and to the Far East. If China had decided to keep it's naval program going, we'd all be following Confucian values rather than Abrahamic ones.

If what's going on in the Middle East is due to Islam practices, then dammit it's the problem. The ME is trying to practice a theocracy and rejects going against Islam thru violence and hate. It's a problem because they WONT separate the religion from government and laws. **** sake, sharia law you allow is doing exactly that, keeping religion and government together. So please tell how that is not a problem. Islam by itself is not a problem, it's the separation of govt and religion that is and you in favor of sharia law is continuing the damn problem. Of course u can explain why keeping religion and government together is such a great idea and not a problem.

"What's going on in the Middle East" isn't strictly due to Islam or any particular faith. It's a quagmire of faith and history that consumes everyone within it because there are at least four different faiths and ethnic groups that claim the same plot of land as "theirs" leading to conflict. Even if you decided to point specifically at Islam, the elements we hear about are simply the loudest and most extreme forms of it. Like if the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saint's fundamentalist arm got all Militant and decided to start fighting a war with the USA and managed to take most of the western interior. I don't think you'd appreciate being lumped in with those polygamous jerks or being subjected to heavy levels of scrutiny and suspicion just because you happened to exist within 1000 miles of the primary point of conflict.

 

And if you're saying that somehow the American Governmental Apparatus is not constantly being pushed to specifics from Christian Laws, consider how many times our political leaders have attempted to declare that God will save our soldiers, or that we need to have the Ten Commandments (something specific to Christianity and Judaism) on our offices of government. That we just had an entire legal fight between the right wing of the population and the government because a doink in Kentucky refused to issue marriage certificates due to her religious beliefs. You're not "Swallowing it" if every time somebody merges the two you fight tooth and nail to prevent the separation.

 

The issue right now with the ban is that it's lumping everyone from those states in with Bad Actors with no real purpose. Of that list how many are actually involved in an open Conflict? Iraq and Syria? Maybe Lybia? (I need to brush up on my mid east) but I know Iran isn't currently involved in an open conflict within it's own borders, nor is Pakistan.

 

Right now much of Trump's policy decisions are being made as if he were a new CEO rather than a President. Get rid of all the old guys and bring in your own people, make a few drastic changes to prove "I'm in Charge!" and reorg the upper echelon to suit what you believe to be the most efficient organizational structure. Thing is Trump is a ****ty business man and it was proven previously when he had several failed businesses fall out from under him and had declared bankruptcy several times. But his ego and him speaking so loud lends credence the "Big Lie" idea (paraphrasing Mien Kamph Vol I Ch. X) "If you make a big simple lie, and keep saying it, people will believe it" because everyone now assumes that he'll make the Economy work for them again just because he's been "Successful in business".

 

 

I'ma gonna stop because I need to sleep for tomorrow and I'm rambling.

Edited January 30, 2017 by Calax