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How has Obsidian's experience with Tyranny influenced their design philosophy regarding PoE2?


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Not sure if this is exactly in the right category, or if it will even get a proper response from the dev team. But here goes.

 

Tyranny was an amazing experience, but it felt like it was more or less a practice exercise to see what the engine could do and to stretch the writing muscles. So then I want to know what if any lessons the team will apply to PoE2?

 

Ex: Will field interactions be coming back? Is the skill system changing? Will the magic system be changing and will it be more like Tyranny? Will the encounter philosophy be changing at all?

 

To my fellow players I ask:

 

What would you pick out of Tyranny to try and incorporate into PoE2?

 

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I'd like to see some inspirations taken from Tyranny for sure, while keeping in mind that Pillars is a very different kind of game, by design. One thing that jumps to mind is that I found there was way more to do for a purely physical fighter in Tyranny. There were many more 'active' abilities you could use, rather than just setting your fighter to auto attack and forgetting about them. I'd like to see more character options like that... playing through Pillars as a fighter was almost as boring as playing a fighter in the old infinity engine games.

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Exactly my thoughts Badgerconda. Combat with melee chars in Tyranny was so much fun and combos with companions were refreshing.

 

In PoE it was same every fight. Get aggro, activate shield, use knockdown and then forget about them for the rest of the fight. I know there was ability cooldown in Tyranny which helped to keep fighters active for the whole fight.

 

Would be really great if they could do something about it in PoE. But maybe multi-classing is the only way.

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Please no cooldowns. And don't import any other combat stuff from Tyranny into PoE2. I liked Tyranny, but I only played it once and then stopped the second playtrough because it got boring and felt like a action RPG. PoE, however, I played a lot of times- until today. With six (or five) people in the party it's OK to have one or two who don't need micromanagement and do fine with autoattacks. I wouldn't oppose more active abilities on fighters for example, but cooldowns force you to always watch and micro your timing and in general I think it's a horrible way to limit ability use. X/encounter or x/rest is the way to go for PoE2 - just my opinion.

Edited by Boeroer
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I liked Tyranny's setting and the way it and its most unique features slotted into the story. I also liked the look and sense of place in the overland locations. I really liked the branching story and how you'd experience each of the factions differently depending on your choices. There were also a few neat QoL things there, e.g. the hyperlinks to lorebooks.

 

Mechanically however it was a train wreck. Everything they changed from Pillars was changed for the worse. The character system somehow managed to combine the role lock-in of a class-based system with the shallowness of a classless one, abilities amounted to a minor debuff or chipping away a few hit points from enemies who had a mountain of them, and combat was a rote, repetitive grind of watching cooldown timers go down; despite the funky animations, all the abilities amounted to one of a handful of effectively interchangeable things. Worse, turning up the difficulty didn't make things any harder, it just made the same grind last longer. In fact there was only one hard fight in the game, and that was at the end of the (short) first act.

 

By all means use the hyperlinks and make a more reactive story, but please, nothing else. Tyranny gameplay was a shamefur dispray

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Yeah, adding my voice to Boeroer's in saying no to cooldowns.  Am on my first playthrough of Tyranny actually, and while I like it the cooldowns detract from it in multiple ways: you have both Recovery and Cooldowns which don't mesh too well counting down, so two separate timers to keep track off, which is made even worse due to the UI setup which means that you either have to click on Talents or Spells button and keep that up to see how far along they are or have them on the hotbar, which has too few slots especially if you are a mage with tons of spells.  Add to this multiple characters, each with their own cooldowns and recoveries, and I am actually glad the combat isn't that hard because I can't be bothered going back and forth between characters managing their skill-use, actually tend to stick to my main and let the others do whatever the hell they want.

"That rabbit's dynamite!" - King Arthur, Monty Python and the Quest for the Holy Grail

"Space is big, really big." - Douglas Adams

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For newcomers or people that don't have their POE savegames anymore I think Obsidian's going to put something similar to Tyranny's conquest mode at the end of POE2's character creation.

Apart from this, the hyperlink system for lore keywords (already confirmed to be in POE2) and the more varied unarmed combat animations I hope they don't carry over anything else from Tyranny into POE2. Especially the painfully simplistic combat completely void of any tactical finesse whatsoever but also small, but incredibly dumb things like a level up automatically restoring to full health/stamina, removing all afflictions, injuries, fatigue or any negative effects and on top of that even granting a temporary stat boost like in a MMO or Hack'nSlasher.

 

Keep the two franchises as separate as possible, please.

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Ye i agree with some of the sentiments here. I don't want any of the combat mechanics and i disagree about the fighters. I felt that all my characters were basically the same build. Melee with some magic. That is not interesting. I also didnt enjoy the encounter layouts. Tyranny was like Od Nua, one big dungeon. I enjoy the occasional dungeon crawl but i want to avoid combat sometimes, maybe once (i know you could avoid with dialogue but not the same thing). 

 

I did like the weapon ready animation. So i guess there is something. When out of combat holster your weapon.

Edited by jnb0364
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To be honest, after playing Tyranny, I've started to appreciate PoE's per-encounter/rest system.

Not that I like resting, but the very thing that you had to strategically plan spell usage, leaving some of per-rest spells for later use, was making combat much more diverse. In Tyranny through, I almost always used the same spells/abilities, and usually even in the same order. It got repetitive really fast.

 

Similar thing with monsters' immunities and effective defenses. In PoE, encounters felt more unique, each requiring a different key. And it was a great feeling, building a party that could deal with all the variations of enemies in multiple different ways.

 

I agree with PrimeJunta, mechanically Tyranny was far less balanced than Pillars (see my feedback here). Yet on the level of concept, there were a few interesting ideas: conquest, reputation bonuses and especially spell crafting (which although has no place in PoE, could find a reflection in enchanting system).

Edited by MaxQuest
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I think the hyperlinked lore could be a great boon in helping separate player and character knowledge. I loved PoE but I still facepalmed when my first character, a noble from the aedyrean empire, could ask Heodan about His own homeland. ;)

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"Wizards do not need to be The Dudes Who Can AoE Nuke You and Gish and Take as Many Hits as a Fighter and Make all Skills Irrelevant Because Magic."

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Up with cooldowns! Down with per rest abilities! :yes:

poe developers implied such were their goal.  board did not react favorable.  but perhaps poe2 backers is more enlightened or adventurous than were poe1 folks.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited by Gromnir
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"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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IIRC Obsidian have said that they're not looking at Tyranny-esque combat mechanics for PoE2, at least in that there won't be synergy based skills and the combat will work more like an IE game.

 

You wanted an IE game, you're getting the sequel to an IE game. We're going to be having per-rest/encounter skills. Let's deal with that.

You read my post.

 

You have been eaten by a grue.

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Up with cooldowns! Down with per rest abilities! :yes:

poe developers implied such were their goal. board did not react favorable. but perhaps poe2 backers is more enlightened or adventurous than were poe1 folks.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Not to be argumentative, but cooldowns are adventurous and enlightened? It's not like we haven't had a plethora of games in the past 10 years using them. Dragon Age, Tyranny, almost every MMO, etc. It's not some new frontier of RPG mechanics. Both systems have pros and cons. I'd like there to be some games that DON'T use cool down mechanics. Variety being the spice of life.

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Up with cooldowns! Down with per rest abilities! :yes:

poe developers implied such were their goal. board did not react favorable. but perhaps poe2 backers is more enlightened or adventurous than were poe1 folks.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Not to be argumentative, but cooldowns are adventurous and enlightened? It's not like we haven't had a plethora of games in the past 10 years using them. Dragon Age, Tyranny, almost every MMO, etc. It's not some new frontier of RPG mechanics. Both systems have pros and cons. I'd like there to be some games that DON'T use cool down mechanics. Variety being the spice of life.

 

variety is only a good thing so long as you like the options, yes? and while it may no longer be adventurous to deviate from the vancian inspired d&d models, we would posit it is indeed enlightened. more aware developers is precisely why so few games rely 'pon per rest nowadays.

 

ah well.  while we would prefer to give the corpse o' d&d per rest spell casters the viking funeral they deserve (eaten by ravens and crabs as their bloated cadavers bob in brackish tidepools as 'posed to the flamey longboat ceremony,) we suspect there will be little motivation to change.  obsidian is trying to sell poe2 to folks who liked poe1.  fundamental changes don't make too much sense save as to correct clear broken mechanics or 'cause everybody hated in poe1.  per rest ain't broken, just sucky.

 

HA! Good Fun!

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"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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No, I would say variety can be good even if you don't care for everything. I don't want to play the same cool down based game over and over and over because it get tired fast. Even if a system isn't perfect it's being different can make things interesting.

 

I'm not arguing that Vancian is better or worse. I'm just saying that PoE being the one game using it is fine because it is the one game made since NWN2 that uses it.

 

I feel CD based RPGs are common because they are easy to develop, and it doesn't necessarily bring a better experience to the player. In fact, it has become somewhat banal in my estimation.

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Cooldowns does not work well I think in a party-based game, see my earlier post on this (still enjoying Tyranny but that's in spite of the mechanics listed in my earlier post), but for a TL;DR version: it is hard to keep track of cooldowns of individual skills of multiple characters, having to constantly switch between characters to see which skills have become available again.  It also leads to MMO-style behaviour of just triggering off a sequence of abilities, which is exacerbated by having multiple characters because it is the only way to manage them, rather than getting into the actual tactical play of party-management.  

"That rabbit's dynamite!" - King Arthur, Monty Python and the Quest for the Holy Grail

"Space is big, really big." - Douglas Adams

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I used to be pro cooldown during Pillars 1 campaign but I liked how they implemented the per rest/per encounter mechanic after all. I usually like cooldowns if the UI is good (Tyranny's wasn't) but I don't mind if they use the same systen as Pillars 1. 

Comparing Tyranny's combat to Pillars' I'd say Pillars is much much more interesting and fun and the per rest/encounter system contributes to that but only because Tyranny had so meh combat. Cooldowns can be interesting as well if the game's designed well around them.

Edited by Sedrefilos
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Per-rest was something that intimidated me about PoE at first, not being an IE veteran, but I really came around on them, and would hate to see them replaced by cooldowns. Still, there's one issue I have with per-rest, and it's that while players have to worry about budgeting their spells for the next encounter, AI foes have no such compunction. Ideally, the enemy wizards/priests and such using their per-rests should create enough difficulty that warrants players also casting their per-rests, but most of the time I could get by anyway without spending any spell uses. 

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Per-rest was something that intimidated me about PoE at first, not being an IE veteran, but I really came around on them, and would hate to see them replaced by cooldowns. Still, there's one issue I have with per-rest, and it's that while players have to worry about budgeting their spells for the next encounter, AI foes have no such compunction. Ideally, the enemy wizards/priests and such using their per-rests should create enough difficulty that warrants players also casting their per-rests, but most of the time I could get by anyway without spending any spell uses. 

scales terrible.  for spell casters, per-rest is a major concern at low levels and a non factor at mid-high levels.  is not well designed.  there is good reasons it has become anachronistic. doesn't make much sense to use per-rest save for the fact the ie games used.

 

HA! Good Fun!

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"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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Per-rest was something that intimidated me about PoE at first, not being an IE veteran, but I really came around on them, and would hate to see them replaced by cooldowns. Still, there's one issue I have with per-rest, and it's that while players have to worry about budgeting their spells for the next encounter, AI foes have no such compunction. Ideally, the enemy wizards/priests and such using their per-rests should create enough difficulty that warrants players also casting their per-rests, but most of the time I could get by anyway without spending any spell uses. 

scales terrible.  for spell casters, per-rest is a major concern at low levels and a non factor at mid-high levels.  is not well designed.  there is good reasons it has become anachronistic. doesn't make much sense to use per-rest save for the fact the ie games used.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

Would you rather a rebalance of the system, or do away with it entirely? What would you want to replace it with?

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am not seeing a need for per-rest.  if it were up to Gromnir, we would keep a few per-rest abilities as resting is kinda an integral component for healing anyway, but as already noted, early in poe development it appeared as if obsidian were gonna exorcise vancian spellcasting.  were a nostalgia bone for the d&d/ie folks.  even obsidian didn't seem to see it as being fundamental to the ie experience.

 

but again, we don't expect and end to per-rest.  poe2 is being sold to the folks who purchased and liked poe1.  is per-rest broken?  perhaps.  a little. nevertheless, am doubting obsidian changes a mechanic which were liked and disliked seeming equal.  am doubting too many poe2 funders is having per-rest be the deciding factor in their purchase. so why change?

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps am not certain this needs be said, but we would replace with per-encounter abilities as numerous poe classes already utilize.

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"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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