Should the EU become the United States of Europe? What do you think?

[pmp10]

Besides, economic crisis is a part of the economic cycle, there is always a peak, recession, trough, recovery, while overall growing.

That dogma of perpetual growth will soon have a hard crash with reality.

In Japan growth is already non-existent and they are merely ahead of time. 

Edited October 13, 2016 by pmp10

[Ben No.3]

 

 

Besides, economic crisis is a part of the economic cycle, there is always a peak, recession, trough, recovery, while overall growing.

That dogma of perpetual growth will soon have a hard crash with reality.

In Japan growth is already non-existent and they are merely ahead of time.

Well, doesn't that just mean that they're in a phase of recession? Economy will always go up and down within a few years but over the course of decades go up.

[pmp10]

 

 

Besides, economic crisis is a part of the economic cycle, there is always a peak, recession, trough, recovery, while overall growing.

That dogma of perpetual growth will soon have a hard crash with reality.

In Japan growth is already non-existent and they are merely ahead of time.

Well, doesn't that just mean that they're in a phase of recession? Economy will always go up and down within a few years but over the course of decades go up.

 

When your boom/bust cycle averages out to zero for over a decade then it's more than just a recession phase.

To be fair the country isn't about to collapse but it is an advanced economy that can work people to their deaths.

And the aging process is only just getting started.

[Ben No.3]

 

 

 

 

Besides, economic crisis is a part of the economic cycle, there is always a peak, recession, trough, recovery, while overall growing.

That dogma of perpetual growth will soon have a hard crash with reality.

In Japan growth is already non-existent and they are merely ahead of time.

Well, doesn't that just mean that they're in a phase of recession? Economy will always go up and down within a few years but over the course of decades go up.

When your boom/bust cycle averages out to zero for over a decade then it's more than just a recession phase.

To be fair the country isn't about to collapse but it is an advanced economy that can work people to their deaths.

And the aging process is only just getting started.

Here is an example of what I mean

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_cycle#/media/File%3ABusinesscycle_figure3.jpg

[redneckdevil]

That's USA growth if I'm not mistaken. One thing is that our growth shouldn't be seen as what will happen in all countries economic growth, because each country has different factors/work habits/pay/laws/etc.

One thing is for certain is that we have not gone with a Single Straight plan, our work stradegy is always changing because economy is a living breathing fake thing.

Also I think the one thing that EU has going against it that the USA doesn't is that we are a single country working with others so with us if we fail, it hurts us worse than others. If the EU fails, it's like having ALL the business partners fail because all of them have to pay up and shift to keep everyone afloat.

We usually follow the sink or swim mentality (the bailout some years ago went against our normal procedure and showed that bailing out doesn't work) but it seems the EU can't follow that without going against their foundation. Meaning our format (what u listed) means if something fails, it fails and something new comes in or that corner just closes up and is no longer viable, so the market we have makes room for competition and takes care of when things fail. Evause someone will come along and either fill it or open a new corner. The EU can't do that because if there's to much failure, the EU can't (I don't think) disown a partner if they aren't breaking the rules whereas we can.

I'm wondering what's gonna happen if and when the EU goes thru a big recession, will they keep trying to bail everyone out OR try to make it on their own without the EU or will they stick with the EU and everyone go down together.

-not a business major lol

[BruceVC]

Guys the EU is a success story, its the worlds most successful economic union

 

It wont fail, it will survive Brexit. You guys who live in the EU dont realize how lucky you are. You dont realize the hell you will go through if the EU does dissolve ....trust me on this 

 

It is not the same as the USA on a number of levels but they both represent important bastions of Western ideology 

[BruceVC]

 

It wont fail, it will survive Brexit.

Brexit maybe, but not the collapse of Deutsche Bank.

 

No that cannot happen, its not possible economically

 

Germany had a 3.5  trillion dollar GDP in 2016, they alone can support Deutsche Bank but even if somehow they couldnt the EU central bank would readily apply loans....there is no reasonable way Deutsche Bank could crash the German economy

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Germany

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

It wont fail, it will survive Brexit.

Brexit maybe, but not the collapse of Deutsche Bank.

 

No that cannot happen, its not possible economically

 

Germany had a 3.5  trillion dollar GDP in 2016, they alone can support Deutsche Bank but even if somehow they couldnt the EU central bank would readily apply loans....there is no reasonable way Deutsche Bank could crash the German economy

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Germany

 

 

Well, no one is buying this story except BruceVC it seems.

 

http://www.businessinsider.com/no-one-is-buying-deutsche-banks-comfortable-story-2016-9?IR=T

 

This is not speculation on my part, I work in the banking sector and half my family live in the UK and are investment bankers

 

Deusche Bank may have to close, its unlikely but that will not collapse the German economy. Everyone in finance is aware of this and  the issues Wells Fargo are having....the thing is its  not  good for the overall perception of the banking sector and does carry some negative global impact but governments are being very strict with anyone in the banking sector who is.....working unethically 

 

Nowadays after 2008 the banking sector is heavily scrutinized. I'll be honest many people feel its overly regulated 

[BruceVC]

Deutsche Bank collapsing will have about 10 times more impact than Lehman Brothers. It will collapse EU, Germany will survive because they are the biggest and already started the backup plan.

You will have to produce a link from some reputable financial analyst for me to believe that. What you suggesting is not a view I have ever heard from many prominent economists

 

 

People are talking about it, no one in any bank likes to see this because of the potential risk of contagion but if the risk was the collapse of the EU this would be mentioned on network shows like Bloomberg?

[BruceVC]

 

 

Deutsche Bank collapsing will have about 10 times more impact than Lehman Brothers. It will collapse EU, Germany will survive because they are the biggest and already started the backup plan.

You will have to produce a link from some reputable financial analyst for me to believe that. What you suggesting is not a view I have ever heard from many prominent economists

 

 

People are talking about it, no one in any bank likes to see this because of the potential risk of contagion but if the risk was the collapse of the EU this would be mentioned on network shows like Bloomberg?

I gave link to the financials being concerned about this and to Germany printing DM like there is no tomorrow. And you are capable to use google.

 

Sharp I'll be honest., I always find it annoying when people expect you to find the links they are talking about 

 

The responsibility to post the link must be yours as you are  making the point, lets not be lazy now  

You will notice I never say " I have a point to make  "  but you need to find that link yourself 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

Some Breif Points of Order: 1.Japan has been experiencing a stagnant economy since the early 1990s. "Abenomics" of zero interest rates while using the CBJ to purchase stocks has given Japan a zombie economy. 2. Deutsche Bank has liability exposure to derivatives in excess of $70,000,000,000,000--that's $70 Trillion dollars. Stated differently, over 20x Germany's notional GDP. 3. "The Business Cycle" is an aberration largely created by the distortions of central banking activity. Read: Hayek, Mises, or Rothbard for more. Religion and culture are no illusions which divide us. They are ideological and practical difference in which people think and live. They are, at a bare minimum, normative preferences. Brushing them aside as annoying trivialities to road-block your leviathan demonstrates a supreme ignorance and naivete.

[Meshugger]

Some Breif Points of Order: 1.Japan has been experiencing a stagnant economy since the early 1990s. "Abenomics" of zero interest rates while using the CBJ to purchase stocks has given Japan a zombie economy. 2. Deutsche Bank has liability exposure to derivatives in excess of $70,000,000,000,000--that's $70 Trillion dollars. Stated differently, over 20x Germany's notional GDP. 3. "The Business Cycle" is an aberration largely created by the distortions of central banking activity. Read: Hayek, Mises, or Rothbard for more. Religion and culture are no illusions which divide us. They are ideological and practical difference in which people think and live. They are, at a bare minimum, normative preferences. Brushing them aside as annoying trivialities to road-block your leviathan demonstrates a supreme ignorance and naivete.

 

I would recommend "The Princes of the Yen" for further info. It demonstrates on how you destroy a currency, and effectively the country with it, with the good conscience of modernising it to global standards.

[pmp10]

And in a glorious demonstration of world famous EU administrative efficiency:

Walloons block Ceta

 

Just a small taste of what an European super state could entail.

 

[Gfted1]

27 Yay, 1 Nay, the whole deals off.

 

You guys are well on your way to becoming a US.

[Chilloutman]

27 Yay, 1 Nay, the whole deals off.

 

You guys are well on your way to becoming a US.

Sometimes status que is just better (especially when its about EU)

[Gfted1]

Seven years of work and the lone dissenting vote comes from one of the smallest players, which scuttles the whole plan. Honestly its a little refreshing to me to see that the US are not the only ones who become paralyzed by special interest groups. Weve been working for ~10 years to build a pipe through a field where someone died hundreds of years ago.

[Azdeus]

And in a glorious demonstration of world famous EU administrative efficiency:

Walloons block Ceta

 

Just a small taste of what an European super state could entail.

 

That's a good thing. I'd rather not the Swedish government be sued because we don't want people mining or drilling oil in certain places.

[Volourn]

Anytime the EU gets butthurt I smile. How long does it take that the position of that place 'magiclaly' gets flip either through intimidation, bullying, bribery,  flatout lying, or outright murder? That's the EU way.

[HoonDing]

"27 Yay, 1 Nay, the whole deals off."

 

its how democracy works

[Gfted1]

"27 Yay, 1 Nay, the whole deals off."

 

its how democracy works

 

Really? The EU need 100% agreement on these matters? You guys are going to tank even faster than us!

[213374U]

Seven years of work and the lone dissenting vote comes from one of the smallest players, which scuttles the whole plan.

I'm sure that the people's commissars MEPs that toiled valiantly day and night for seven long years against insurmountable legal hurdles and the objections of filthy peasants are completely devastated over this outcome. I'm positive their €96k (before expenses) salaries are hardly any consolation.

 

edit:

Meanwhile in Brussels...

 

 

 

Edited October 25, 2016 by 213374U

[Chippy]

Don't support the EU.  Everyone made Brexit about immigration, but for some the fact that unelected leaders in the EU made 75% of laws in Britain was enough of a reason to leave.  If you support democracy and a potential change in party every four years, I find it strange that people would consider this type of state-wide government appealing.

[Ben No.3]

Don't support the EU. Everyone made Brexit about immigration, but for some the fact that unelected leaders in the EU made 75% of laws in Britain was enough of a reason to leave. If you support democracy and a potential change in party every four years, I find it strange that people would consider this type of state-wide government appealing.

How is the EU government unelected? Parliament is elected directly, council consists of our (elected) governments, commissions are put in place by (elected) governments. Edited October 28, 2016 by Ben No.3

[Chilloutman]

 

Don't support the EU. Everyone made Brexit about immigration, but for some the fact that unelected leaders in the EU made 75% of laws in Britain was enough of a reason to leave. If you support democracy and a potential change in party every four years, I find it strange that people would consider this type of state-wide government appealing.

How is the EU government unelected? Parliament is elected directly, council consists of our (elected) governments, commissions are put in place by (elected) governments.

 

 

because you want different people in state parliament and different people in EU government. For exampel social policy have more sense on low scale so I rather have socialist mayor but overall fiscally responsible state government. Thats why those two posts are directly voted but are separated

[Chippy]

 

Don't support the EU. Everyone made Brexit about immigration, but for some the fact that unelected leaders in the EU made 75% of laws in Britain was enough of a reason to leave. If you support democracy and a potential change in party every four years, I find it strange that people would consider this type of state-wide government appealing.

How is the EU government unelected? Parliament is elected directly, council consists of our (elected) governments, commissions are put in place by (elected) governments.

 

Just research the Lisbon Treaty or the Greek bailout referendum,

 

"...respect the fact that the French, the Dutch and the Irish voted no..

What kind of democracy is it that says that you voted this way, you got it wrong and you've got to do it again".

-Nigel Farage

 

"Two European Union governments have now been toppled in coups – bloodless and genteel coups, but coups nonetheless. In Greece and in Italy, elected prime ministers have been overthrown by Eurocrats.

Greece is now run by a former vice-president of the European Central Bank, Lucas Papademos; Italy by a former European Commissioner, Mario Monti. Neither man has ever submitted himself to the ballot box. Both head what are called ‘national governments’ – though they have been put together solely to implement programmes that their nations reject."

 

Something else to consider:

 

"Take the following as examples: From January 2006, it became illegal to repair your own domestic plumbing, electrics or even your own car.

If you buy a boat over six feet long, built after 1999, you will be required to pay the equivalent in Euros of £4000, or face six months in prison.

As the EU `Police State` flexes it's muscles ever more, each of us will live under the fear and threat of arrest or prosecution for any one of a myriad of offences, even minor ones."

 

This may seem out of place, but I worked withing the criminal system - and although it warrants anoyther thread - criminalising the average citizen is big buisness.  Within 5 years the

government in the UK can potentially make more from an offender going through the system than 20 years of tax at minimum wage.  A criminal record, the enormous amount of regulations they are imposing on small buisnesses, or the constantly expanding tax systems (including the crippling inheritance tax) also funnels prospects for the future, which in my oppinion is gradually leading here:

 

"Europe's nations should be guided towards the super-state without their people understanding what is happening.

This can be accomplished by successive steps, each disguised as having an economic purpose, but which will eventually and irreversibly lead to federation."

Jean Monnet (Founding Father Of The EU in a letter to a friend 30th April 1952).).

You may consider this conspiracy theory level stuff, but what we are seeing from the EU is stranger than fiction.

 

Source:

The End Of The Nation States Of Europe

The Irish Referendum On The Lisbon

Treaty October 2nd 2009

By Philip Jones

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2063756/Eurocrats-imposed-Greece-Italy-Id-governed-100-people-phone-book.html

http://www.rense.com/general87/nationstates.htm

Edited October 28, 2016 by Chippy