Should the UK leave the EU?

[Gfted1]

Alright comrade when did you turn into a pinko commie (not that I disagree with you there, at all, but that's not much of a surpise I think)?

Hehe, hey I'm going to need to use those programs in around 20 years. Of course they will probably go belly up the year prior to my retirement.

[Drowsy Emperor]

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/684549/EU-cannot-rely-NATO-needs-new-defence-policy-chief

 

Interesting development. An EU military under the command of a EU government. Amazing, the dream of William Penn, Charles de St-Pierre, Napoleon, & Hitler coming true with hardly a shot fired. This would make me feel  better about a "leave" vote if I were British. 

 

Its an effort to portray an image of unity in a critical time. Without some real moves, at this point its no more than a PR stunt. Realistically speaking, it should have happened long ago, but the influence of the US on European politicians, their own divisions and some practical issues have kept it from happening for decades.

 

I don't see it happening now either as I sincerely doubt that the French and the Germans have the spine to make it happen (although Brexit is definitely a plus as the British were always keen to sabotage anything that would lead the EU away from the US).

There's also the matter of immense expenditures it would entail and the inevitable hit social services would take in a situation where the economic crisis dictates less spending. And the masses are already displeased as it is.

Its feasible but it would take the kind of statesmanship not seen in Europe since De Gaulle's time (and even he backtracked on France's NATO exit).

 

However, it is the only way the EU could create its own policy instead of have it dictated by NATO. And then we would be spared such stupidity as the quasi war with Russia over Ukraine, the inexplicable involvement in Syria or Libya (although european elites were amazingly keen to participate in such obviously catastrophic ventures).

 

There is a sort of delicious irony in which the country that led many of the false flag propaganda efforts and smear campaigns against Assad eventually lose its EU membership partly over the refugee crisis it was instrumental in creating.

Edited June 29, 2016 by Drowsy Emperor

[Gfted1]

Yeah, theres definately no way a war could start in Europe, caused by Europeans.

[Drowsy Emperor]

I'm not absolving them of their own stupidity, but for quite a while they haven't been calling the shots in anything of relevance.

[Elerond]

I'm not absolving them of their own stupidity, but for quite a while they haven't been calling the shots in anything of relevance.

 

Extreme nationalism is in rise and in past it has had habit to create conflicts between nations.

[213374U]

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/684549/EU-cannot-rely-NATO-needs-new-defence-policy-chief

 

Interesting development. An EU military under the command of a EU government. Amazing, the dream of William Penn, Charles de St-Pierre, Napoleon, & Hitler coming true with hardly a shot fired. This would make me feel  better about a "leave" vote if I were British.

 

Well, the article is a bit off-base, I think. Here's the actual document:

 

http://europa.eu/globalstrategy/sites/globalstrategy/files/eugs_review_web.pdf

 

It's mostly a bunch of vague references to unspecified existential threats and political bull**** about closer cooperation in matters of security, fostering human rights, the rule of law and what have you. No mentions of a unified military chain of command, training procedures and standards at the Union level, EU troops, or anything of the sort. It suggests shifting the balance towards hard power rather than being mostly flaccid soft as the current status quo, but it doesn't make any specific recommendations as to how to do that.

 

However:

 

"In particular, investment in security and defence is a matter of urgency. Full spectrum defence capabilities are necessary to respond to external crises, build our partners’ capacities, and to guarantee Europe’s safety. Member States remain sovereign in their defence decisions: nevertheless, to acquire and maintain many of these capabilities, defence cooperation must become the norm. The EU will systematically encourage defence cooperation and strive to create a solid European defence industry, which is critical for Europe’s autonomy of decision and action."

 

"With the US, the EU will strive for a Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership (TTIP). Like the Comprehensive Economic and Trade Agreement (CETA) with Canada, TTIP demonstrates the transatlantic commitment to shared values and signals our willingness to pursue an ambitious rules-based trade agenda"

 

Stuff along those lines is common throughout the doc.

 

To me, the takeaway is a push to consolidate an EU military-industrial complex rather than for a proper 'EU army' as such. It's a much easier sell, too.

Edited June 29, 2016 by 213374U

[Chilloutman]

 

I'm not absolving them of their own stupidity, but for quite a while they haven't been calling the shots in anything of relevance.

 

Extreme nationalism is in rise and in past it has had habit to create conflicts between nations.

 

 

Yeah, but strangely now its more 'European' nationalism against EU than lets say France nationalism, everyone want to keep europe togather but still keep own identity which somehow EU completely dont understand. There is no notion that one nation is better than other (at least from east europe perspective)

[Gromnir]

brexit does provide an ideal opportunity to consider becoming the 51st US... state.  well, possibly 52nd as we suspect puerto rico would have a thing or two to say on the matter.

 

would be a serious and instant boost for the brit economy.

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/britain-would-be-poorer-than-any-us-state-except-mississippi-if-it-joined-america-9693240.html

 

would finally get genuine free trade with an economy on par with the entire eu. far less less regulation than brussels.   heck, less regulation than britain. your celebrities would not need feel embarrassment in getting caught in panama papers nonsense as you can get better tax shelter benefits in nevada and delaware. 

 

oh sure, you would likely need deal with more homeless and the socialist gravy train would come to an abrupt halt.  soccer hooligans armed with ubiquitous american handguns could make for brutal television. otherwise, am not seeing much o' a downside from the brit end o' things.

 

...

 

'course the royals would no longer be royal.  sorry, is a Constitutional quirk we got.  am guessing that no royalty would kill any possibility o' #brit51orbust.

 

be like michael caine, yes?

 

“I decided not to become a tax exile, so I stayed in Britain, but they kept putting the tax up, so I’d do any old thing every now and then to pay the tax, that was my tax exile money. I realized that’s not a socialist country, it’s a communist country without a dictator, so I left and I was never going to come back.”

 

and just observe how impressive he looks wielding a handgun.

 

something to think 'bout.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited June 30, 2016 by Gromnir

[Raithe]

For some more on the breakdown of voting..

 

How the UK voted and why

 

For some of the highlights...

 

 

The UK has voted to leave the European Union. On referendum day I surveyed 12,369 people after they had voted to help explain the result – who voted for which outcome, and what lay behind their decision.

 

The demographics

• The older the voters, the more likely they were to have voted to leave the EU. Nearly three quarters (73%) of 18 to 24 year-olds voted to remain, falling to under two thirds (62%) among 25-34s. A majority of those aged over 45 voted to leave, rising to 60% of those aged 65 or over. Most people with children aged ten or under voted to remain; most of those with children aged 11 or older voted to leave.

 

• A majority of those working full-time or part-time voted to remain in the EU; most of those not working voted to leave. More than half of those retired on a private pension voted to leave, as did two thirds of those retired on a state pension.

• Among private renters and people with mortgages, a small majority (55% and 54%) voted to remain; those who owned their homes outright voted to leave by 55% to 45%. Around two thirds of council and housing association tenants voted to leave.

• A majority (57%) of those with a university degree voted to remain, as did 64% of those with a higher degree and more than four in five (81%) of those still in full time education. Among those whose formal education ended at secondary school or earlier, a large majority voted to leave.

• White voters voted to leave the EU by 53% to 47%. Two thirds (67%) of those describing themselves as Asian voted to remain, as did three quarters (73%) of black voters. Nearly six in ten (58%) of those describing themselves as Christian voted to leave; seven in ten Muslims voted to remain.

• The AB social group (broadly speaking, professionals and managers) were the only social group among whom a majority voted to remain (57%). C1s divided fairly evenly; nearly two thirds of C2DEs (64%) voted to leave the EU.

 

• Just under half (43%) of voters said they always knew how they would end up voting or decided more than a year ago. Nearly a quarter (24%) decided in the week before referendum day; and one in ten decided yesterday, or on the day they filled in their postal vote.

• Leave and remain voters were almost equally likely to have decided on the day. Labour and Lib Dem supporters who voted leave were more likely to have decided late than Conservative leavers.

 

• Nearly half (49%) of leave voters said the biggest single reason for wanting to leave the EU was “the principle that decisions about the UK should be taken in the UK”. One third (33%) said the main reason was that leaving “offered the best chance for the UK to regain control over immigration and its own borders.” Just over one in eight (13%) said remaining would mean having no choice “about how the EU expanded its membership or its powers in the years ahead.” Only just over one in twenty (6%) said their main reason was that “when it comes to trade and the economy, the UK would benefit more from being outside the EU than from being part of it.”

• For remain voters, the single most important reason for their decision was that “the risks of voting to leave the EU looked too great when it came to things like the economy, jobs and prices” (43%). Just over three in ten (31%) reasoned that remaining would mean the UK having “the best of both worlds”, having access to the EU single market without Schengen or the euro. Just under one in five (17%) said their main reason was that the UK would “become more isolated from its friends and neighbours”, and fewer than one in ten (9%) said it was “a strong attachment to the EU and its shared history, culture and traditions.”

Overall, small majorities of voters thought EU membership would be better for the economy, international investment, and the UK’s influence in the world. Leaving the EU was thought more likely to bring about a better immigration system, improved border controls, a fairer welfare system, better quality of life, and the ability to control our own laws.Next Conservative leader

 

What did they expect?

• Seven voters in ten expected a victory for remain, including a majority (54%) of those who voted to leave. Leave voters who voted UKIP at the 2015 election were the only group who (by just 52% to 48%) expected a leave victory.

 

The impact

• More than three quarters (77%) of those who voted to remain thought “the decision we make in the referendum could have disastrous consequences for us as a country if we get it wrong”. More than two thirds (69%) of leavers, by contrast, thought the decision “might make us a bit better or worse off as a country, but there probably isn’t much in it either way”.

[Meshugger]

^Excellent polling data there.

 

Once they get rid of old, white and christian people, Britain will never have to worry about another Brexit again.

[redneckdevil]

Then it'd be a Britain without any Englishman lol

[Chilloutman]

Then it'd be a Britain without any Englishman lol

 

That is the point fool

[Nordicus]

Well, Boris Johnson just said that he will not run for Prime Minister

[Zoraptor]

I'm actually not that surprised about Boris. Especially after Gove confirmed he would run earlier.

[Elerond]

Polls show that even though overwhelming majority of non-white people vote for remain they were only able to influence final result 1% towards remain from 53% (percentage of white voters that supported leave) to 52% leave. 

 

Non-Christian identified voters were able to move result 6% from 58% to 52% 

 

Under 65 years olds were able to move result 8% towards remain. People younger than 35 and people over 45 negated each others votes.  If half of those under 35 that didn't vote had voted with similar split as those of them that vote then remain would had won.

 

And then small lightening in form of somebody analyzing current situation in political leadership fight

https://www.buzzfeed.com/saraspary/this-guy-tried-to-sum-up-the-****show-that-is-british-politi?utm_term=.efz6aelDp#.kuJPBVlYG

So, let me get this straight… the leader of the opposition campaigned to stay but secretly wanted to leave, so his party held a non-binding vote to shame him into resigning so someone else could lead the campaign to ignore the result of the non-binding referendum which many people now think was just angry people trying to shame politicians into seeing they’d all done nothing to help them.

 

Meanwhile, the man who campaigned to leave because he hoped losing would help him win the leadership of his party, accidentally won and ruined any chance of leading because the man who thought he couldn’t lose, did – but resigned before actually doing the thing the vote had been about. The man who’d always thought he’d lead next, campaigned so badly that everyone thought he was lying when he said the economy would crash – and he was, but it did, but he’s not resigned, but, like the man who lost and the man who won, also now can’t become leader. Which means the woman who quietly campaigned to stay but always said she wanted to leave is likely to become leader instead.

 

Which means she holds the same view as the leader of the opposition but for opposite reasons, but her party’s view of this view is the opposite of the opposition’s. And the opposition aren’t yet opposing anything because the leader isn’t listening to his party, who aren’t listening to the country, who aren’t listening to experts or possibly paying that much attention at all. However, none of their opponents actually want to be the one to do the thing that the vote was about, so there’s not yet anything actually on the table to oppose anyway. And if no one ever does do the thing that most people asked them to do, it will be undemocratic and if any one ever does do it, it will be awful.

 

Clear?

[Gorth]

(Real life episode of "Yes Minister!")

[Elerond]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dosmKwrAbI

[Hassat Hunter]

You should be proud as political system if the majority of voters just voted remain out of being scared, and your actually policy's effect comes far later as second.

[Junai]

Congratulations Britain..

 

Standing up to unelected bureaucrats and megalomaniacs is always the right thing to do.

 

 

 

J.

[Elerond]

Congratulations Britain..

 

Standing up to unelected bureaucrats and megalomaniacs is always the right thing to do.

 

 

 

J.

 

I have also always find it is excellent way to stand up against unelected bureaucrats and megalomaniacs, by changing them to another group of unelected bureaucrats and megalomaniacs    

 

PS. I always wonder why people bother to put unelected before bureaucrats, as bureaucrats by their nature are unelected    

[Valsuelm]

PS. I always wonder why people bother to put unelected before bureaucrats, as bureaucrats by their nature are unelected   

 

Sometimes the obvious needs to be stated, as while you may see the obvious, it's clear to some that others do not.

[Drowsy Emperor]

They're drawing the thing out so much I wonder if they'll come up with some excuse/loophole to stay

[Valsuelm]

They're drawing the thing out so much I wonder if they'll come up with some excuse/loophole to stay

 

No doubt, that is the plan and hope of some.

[Nonek]

There's something about Michael Gove that really makes my skin crawl, i'm not sure what it is (and maybe i'm quite wrong) but I would not trust the chap as far as I could throw him.

 

In other new I invested in a great many shares of European companies specialising in soothing rectal cream before the Brexit vote, I am now quite pleased with the financial return that has been achieved due to Englands (monstrous) vote for independence.

[Zoraptor]

Michael Gove looks and sounds like Harry Potter would if he'd merged with Voldemort and is one of the few people who genuinely could be a lizard-man wearing a meat suit for convenience. It really is quite disconcerting.