Durgan Steel Enchanting and Stacking

[PX1player]

Hello,

 

I'd like to ask whether anyone has done any tests on how/whether Durgan Steel Enchantment stacks with existing modifiers on Armor/Weapons.

 

I found out that for example the Colored Coat's 10% armor speed reduction doesn't stack with Durgan's 15% speed reduction.

 

However, for weapons its harder to say because the character sheet doesn't list suppressions or stats for weapons.

 

So for example, if my weapon already has speed 20%, will that suppress Durgan's +15%?

What about Crit modifiers on gunpowder weapons? or Hit to Crit modifiers?

 

Thanks in advance

Edited March 29, 2016 by PX1player

[Elric Galad]

Weapon and shield enchantements do stack with everything.

Armor enchantments don't stack with other item effects.

 

This is a general rule, but it is true also for Durgan refinement.

Edited March 30, 2016 by Elric Galad

[PX1player]

Weapon and shield enchantements do stack with everything.

Armor enchantments don't stack with other item effects.

 

This is a general rule, but it is true also for Durgan refinement.

Wait, so you mean a weapon that ALREADY has Speed, Annihilation, and that +hit to crit and you add Durgan Enchant on top of that weapon will end up with +35% speed, +1.0 crit multiplier, and +35% hits to crit?!

 

Or at least, that's what my question was. I know that armor and weapon bonuses stack, but I was interested in multiples of the same stacking on the weapon.

 

Oh, and also I was wondering if my armor speed penalty base is 20%, and I got durgan enchant -15% = 5% and then a shield with weapon speed penalty -15%, does that translate to 10% speed buff or does the penalty not go below 0 and I should wear a 30% speed penalty armor to get the max benefit?

Edited March 30, 2016 by PX1player

[MaxQuest]

Wait, so you mean a weapon that ALREADY has Speed, Annihilation, and that +hit to crit and you add Durgan Enchant on top of that weapon will end up with +35% speed, +1.0 crit multiplier, and +35% hits to crit?!

It should.

 

Oh, and also I was wondering if my armor speed penalty base is 20%, and I got durgan enchant -15% = 5% and then a shield with weapon speed penalty -15%, does that translate to 10% speed buff or does the penalty not go below 0 and I should wear a 30% speed penalty armor to get the max benefit?

Your recovery duration will be: base_recovery_duration * [1 - (1.15) + (1 + 0.2 - 0.15)] = base * 0.9

[theBalthazar]

So... 

 

The armor wich have -10 % of recovery is cancel by durgan bonus ? (-15 %)

 

The Colored Coat

• Exceptional: +4 Damage Reduction
• -10% armor Speed penalty
• Spellstamina: Grants Wicked Briars when Endurance drops below 51% (1 per encounter)

Edited March 30, 2016 by theBalthazar

[PX1player]

 

So... 

 

The armor wich have -10 % of recovery is cancel by durgan bonus ? (-15 %)

 

The Colored Coat

• Exceptional: +4 Damage Reduction
• -10% armor Speed penalty
• Spellstamina: Grants Wicked Briars when Endurance drops below 51% (1 per encounter)

 

Yes, you only get the 15% from durgan, not both

 

 

 

 

Wait, so you mean a weapon that ALREADY has Speed, Annihilation, and that +hit to crit and you add Durgan Enchant on top of that weapon will end up with +35% speed, +1.0 crit multiplier, and +35% hits to crit?!

It should.

 

Oh, and also I was wondering if my armor speed penalty base is 20%, and I got durgan enchant -15% = 5% and then a shield with weapon speed penalty -15%, does that translate to 10% speed buff or does the penalty not go below 0 and I should wear a 30% speed penalty armor to get the max benefit?

Your recovery duration will be: base_recovery_duration * [1 - (1.15) + (1 + 0.2 - 0.15)] = base * 0.9

 

Damn...that's some crazy weapons I can make then, if it indeed works.

And the 10% extra speed from shield + armor bonus on a 20% armor heh, nice

Edited March 30, 2016 by PX1player

[MaxQuest]

Wait a second. I missread "and then a shield with weapon speed penalty -15%" as "and then a shield with a durgan-refined weapon".

I will test the scenario with durgan-refined shield later, when I'll come home.

Edited March 30, 2016 by MaxQuest

[Boeroer]

A durgan reinforced shield will indeed speed up your recovery - at least that was the case when WMI came out.

Edited March 30, 2016 by Boeroer

[PX1player]

A durgan reinforced shield will indeed speed up your recovery - at least that was the case when WMI came out.

But will it above and beyond the actual penalty from the armor?

If your armor penalty is already 0 or below 15, would the shield bring it below 0 and thus turn it into a buff on speed or cap at 0 unless you wear an armor that has sufficient penalties on it?

[Kaylon]

Yes, the bonus on the shield is considered a speed buff and it helps attacking faster even if you have no recovery penalty from armor.

[PX1player]

OK Weapon speed does seem to stack based on Boeroer's post below. I exacerbated the speeds a bit and noticed a difference

Edited March 30, 2016 by PX1player

[Boeroer]

A shield has nothing to do with the armor. If you durganize it, it will reduce the recovery of your main weapon.

 

Example:

Weapon + shield:

1 means your unmodified recovery for your main weapon without armor and stuff.

2 means no rovery.

Your goal is to reach 2.

 

A durganized shield multiplies with your main weapon recovery like this: 1 * 1.15 = 1.15

A durganized main weapon (with durganized shield) would multiply like this on top: 1 * 1.15 * 1.15 = 1,3

A durganized, speed enchanted weapon plus durganized shield: 1 * 1.2 * 1.15 * 1.15 = 1,6

All other speed buffs multiply further.

 

Those rules also apply to one handed without shield.

 

Dual Wielding:

When you dual wield, your unmodified recovery is not 1 but 1.5 for each weapon. You see that now it's easier to reach 2.

Two Weapon Style adds a 1.2 multiplier to both weapons. 

Weapon Speed enchantments and durgan steel only add speed (like above) to the one weapon they are applied to.

All other speed buffs apply to both weapons.

 

Armor and other recovery penalties:

Armor like plate just substracts it's penalty at the end (50% = 0.5).

If you durganize plate it only substracts 0.35 instead of 0.5.

Vulnerable Attack does the same: - 0.2

This gets applied on both weapons.

 

A speed enchantment on one wepon doesn't make the other faster. A shield however makes your main weapon faster. At least that's what tests suggested in the past.

Edited March 30, 2016 by Boeroer

[Kaylon]

I don't know however what happens if you have a durgan enchanted shield with Bash. Maybe the speed will be applied only to the bash attack...

[Elric Galad]

Or it will create a time paradox that would result in the destruction of the whole Eora.

 

Nothing would surprise me anymore about the way attack speed is managed.

[Boeroer]

I don't know however what happens if you have a durgan enchanted shield with Bash. Maybe the speed will be applied only to the bash attack...

That's a good point. Or maybe that bonus get's applied universally like other speed buffs. Someone has to test this.

 

@Elric: I can feel you!

Edited March 30, 2016 by Boeroer

[MaxQuest]

Tested it.

 

[Durgan-refined shield with bash], reduces recovery_duration of the main hand, just like the [durgan-refined shield without bash]. 

For example: 30-31 frames of recovery for the main hand in [Dagger+Shield] setup, is reduced to 26-27 frames, when you durganize the shield.

 

Also confirming the following:

- [Durgan-refined shield enchant] will reduce recovery duration, even if you don't have recovery penalties. It acts like a 15% bonus to your main hand.

- [Durgan-refined shield enchant] applied on shield with bash, does not speed-up the offhand recovery. (as mentioned in the beginning it reduces recovery duration only of the main hand)

- [Durgan-refined armor enchant] unlike the shield enchant, will not reduce recovery duration, if you don't have recovery penalties. Recovery malus is capped at zero. E.g. durganizing a -10% robe, will not give you a +5% bonus.

 

Tests can be found here. 

----------------------------------------------------

Possible consequences from the above tests are:

At zero recovery:

1H:

• will provide highest dps on auto and primary attacks (due to +12 bonus acc)

DW

• highest damage on full attacks
• are easier to reach zero-recovery (because of the initial -50% recovery duration).

1H+Shield (w/o bash)

• will provide the same dps on auto and primary attacks as DW
• will provide the least damage on full attacks
• are easier to speedup than just 1H, due to durgan-refined shield enchant applying to main hand
• provide extra deflection, and bonus reflex

1H+Shield (with bash)

• provide higher damage on full attacks than [1H] or [1H + regular Shield]. But if they have a decent on-proc effect, they do have the potential to exceed even some of DW setups
• provide the same dps on primary attacks as DW
• provide the least dps on auto attacks (due to Bash itself dealing low damage) (but than again, some of the shields do have on-proc effects to compensate)
• are easier to speedup than just 1H, due to durgan-refined shield enchant applying to main hand
• provide extra deflection, and bonus reflex

----------------------------------------------------

Nothing would surprise me anymore about the way attack speed is managed.

Amen. Somebody tried really hard out there.

But hey the mysteries are being unfolded The last one probably being "what the heck is happening with dexterity bonus".

For example it reduces the recovery duration perfectly, with the precision of up to 1 frame. But on some weapons, there are strange results for other phases. Arquebus reload duration of 189 frames is not reduced to 150 frames (at 19 dex) but to 153; and neither it is reduced to 100 frames (at 40 dex) but to 104... A wild guess would be: there are ~10 frames of some "core" animation that are not getting speed-up ((189-10 / 1.9) + 10 ~= 104).

Edited March 31, 2016 by MaxQuest

[Blunderboss]

Amazing work

[Elric Galad]

Thank you for this powergamer's delight, MaxQuest.

 

You should call yourself MinMaxQuest.

Edited March 31, 2016 by Elric Galad

[Reent]

Dex is very very very interesting...

 

have you ever looked at Chanter and Invocations?

I have looked a little bit... no matter how much dex and armor penalty you have, the timing until you have your first summon (i used summons to test it, easiest to see results) out and the first summon can act doesnt change.

However the timing until you can move again changes... the higher your dex the faster you can move again after summoning.

Armor penalty doesnt change your time until you can move again.

Armor penalty and dex - both change how long it takes until you start chanting again after using an invocation... if you have high armor penalty and low dex it looks like it works mulitiplicativ since low dex+no armor has the same delay (while the delay is after the invocation but before you can act again) as high dex and plate (however the delay is after you can move again)... both have a slight delay, almost negligible (maybe 0.3 secs or something) however low dex+plate has a 2 sec delay or even more...

[Kaylon]

Amen. Somebody tried really hard out there.

But hey the mysteries are being unfolded The last one probably being "what the heck is happening with dexterity bonus".

For example it reduces the recovery duration perfectly, with the precision of up to 1 frame. But on some weapons, there are strange results for other phases. Arquebus reload duration of 189 frames is not reduced to 150 frames (at 19 dex) but to 153; and neither it is reduced to 100 frames (at 40 dex) but to 104... A wild guess would be: there are ~10 frames of some "core" animation that are not getting speed-up ((189-10 / 1.9) + 10 ~= 104).

 

That's because between each action (ie attack, recovery, reload) you have 4-5 hard frames and it's hard to say when each animation starts and when it ends (save for the recovery where you have the bar). So you probabably counted the hard frames before and after the reload which explains your diferences.

[MaxQuest]

That's because between each 'action' (ie attack, recovery, reload) you have 4-5 hard frames

Hmm, did you mean 'phase'?

So far I was considering:

full_action_duration = inter_action_delay (of 4-5 frames) + action_duration (full_action_duration is also equal to the duration between two consecutive hits)

action_duration = actual_attack_duration + recovery_duration + reload_duration

 

total_attack_duration = inter_action_delay + actual_attack_duration

full_action_duration = total_attack_duration + recovery_duration + reload_duration

(I will explain below what do I mean by actual and total attack_durations)

 

and it's hard to say when each animation starts and when it ends (save for the recovery where you have the bar).

Yeah, for majority of weapons it's pretty hard. But it is quite easy for reloading ones.

During attacking_phase you have the "weapon icon" in "that circle".

During recovery_phase you have the bar line running.

During reloading_phase you have the "repeat icon" in "that circle".

 

So by forwarding to the frame when icon changes, I could calculate the phase duration with 1 frame precision. Also, I was checking it the sum of all phases is equal to the 'distance' between consecutive hits. It is.

 

Now about the delay: during attacking_phase it is seen that every time it is starting with 4-5 frames of just standing still (during which character's posture isn't changed by an inch). That's why I started calling it "delay", and what follows "actual_attack_duration".

Note that during 'delay' there is still that "weapon icon" showing on the character's plate. Also, for example recovery_phase for sure doesn't have such 'pseudo-stuttering', and is always completely affected by dex bonus, with a precision of up to 1 frame. Iirc reloading animation was looped and smooth from the start to the end too, but will recheck that.

---------------------

Also, if from total_attack_duration i take away delay and projectile flight frames, then divide by dex bonus, and add those frames back, I still get that duration should be by 2-3 frames lower. For example, check arquebus stats here. (54 - 4 - 4)/1.9 + 4 + 4 = 24.2 + 8 = 32.2. But in practice it was 35.

I am constantly getting for arquebus the same values (where dex ignores extra 3 frames (besides inter_action_delay ofc) are ignored from total_attack_duration, and 10 from reloading_duration). Through it's not such a big deal, still it kinda shows that there is more to it.

Edited March 31, 2016 by MaxQuest

[Kaylon]

It's something like attack - delay - recovery - delay - reload - delay - attack... The icons aren't true indicators.

Edited March 31, 2016 by Kaylon

[MaxQuest]

Well sort of..

From visual aspect it's:

- while weapon icon is displayed:  [delay (4-5 frames of 'statue' animation) -> weapon swing/targeting -> projectile flight -> idle animation] -> 

- while bar is running: [idle animation]

- while reload icon is displayed: [reloading animation repeated in a loop]

 

I will check later if reload phase has visually any idle/statue frames.

[dunehunter]

I think for 1h or 2h it's hard to get 0 recovery right ? How many class can achieve this without potion or Mage buff?

[Kaylon]

I think for 1h or 2h it's hard to get 0 recovery right ? How many class can achieve this without potion or Mage buff?

Rangers can do it with 1h weapons and shield and can reduce the recovery of 2h to to 10% with the right items/enchantments.