The supplies mechanic is bad

[Dropman]

I have to agree with DKDartagnan. I can see reasons why is this implemented to game, but the point is that as far as I know there is no place where you are forced to rely on supplies. If you survide first fight you can return back to town and resupply/rest. That makes it no more than another option.

 

Possible solution would be respawning monsters in dungeon which was not cleared (so you have to clear whole map/dungeon/specific place) or to not allow payer to leave dungeon without clearing it/reaching some checkpoint.

 

Btw constructive discusion with game developers is kinda new experience to me...awesome.

Edited February 24, 2016 by Dropman

[Wazz72]

I wish the limit went away just becuase I keep finding the camping supplies while already having two and not needing the rest, just creates busywork where I have to remember where they were then return for them later.

I agree. Just started my first playthrough - 15hrs. in - and encountered this situation a couple times already. 

Playing on Hard difficulty and Expert mode, but I think I'll disable Expert just so I can have limitless camp supply ( that's how that option works I think) and always accass my stash - simply because sometimes the loot ( and not talking about ingredients, but rings/weapons/armor) goes directly in it even if the char has still space in his inventory... bug?

[Gairnulf]

There's no element of difficulty in this. It's simple tedium. Once your health is in the grey, you simply must leave the area and get more supplies.

I agree with this, but I think that when the tedium results from lack of difficulty, then difficulty should be introduced, instead of slashing the mechanic.

 

I think the camping supplies-based resting is a good feature, because it encourages the player to go through the maximum possible amount of battles before resting. This encourages the economy of actions during combat, and forces the player to choose between trade-offs during combat. It makes combat more tactical and decisions in combat matter more. It's similar in effect to the long-term vs short-term health bar.

 

I have a solution to propose to the tedium problem and will post about it soon.

Edited February 24, 2016 by Gairnulf

[Valorian]

If you want a resting system to have an impact you have basically 2 options:

 

1) Resting restrictions (like max. number of camping supplies). It has an impact through tedium and doesn't add difficulty.

 

2) Resting as a strategy element. E.g., if it significantly affects your wealth; bandages and meditation crystals for per rest resources (make something up). Impacts the player by requiring planning and strategy, adds to difficulty.

 

 

The wrong option was chosen for PoE.

[Sonntam]

If you want a resting system to have an impact you have basically 2 options:

 

1) Resting restrictions (like max. number of camping supplies). It has an impact through tedium and doesn't add difficulty.

 

2) Resting as a strategy element. E.g., if it significantly affects your wealth; bandages and meditation crystals for per rest resources (make something up). Impacts the player by requiring planning and strategy, adds to difficulty.

 

 

The wrong option was chosen for PoE.

 

You want to tie in resting mechanic to wealth management? That is a terrible idea. As it is most RPGs completely fail at creating meaningful economies and PoE is no exception. I have 100k gold right now near end-game. Adding resting supplies for a lot of money means that you will be either:

 

a) starved of camping supplies and your characters will have to stay wounded & lack spells

 

or 

 

b) you have more than enough money, resting mechanic becomes completely meaningless.

 

Most likely it will be the first case in low level gameplay and second in high level gameplay. 

[demeisen]

I appreciate what they were trying to do with the camping mechanism, and I consider it a partial success.  It doesn't perfectly capture how I might want it to work, but I think it's a real improvement on rest-spam mechanics.

 

I'm playing V3 on PoD now, and I've had some really fun engagements by going with the flow the game guides me into.  It's a fun challenge to see how far into a dungeon I can dive with what's on my back + whatever I find along the way.  Last night I encountered a nasty fight when my party was already run ragged from a long stint of exploration.  Eder was down to 1/3 of his total health, Kana around 1/2, my PC wizard and Durance both about 1/3 of their total spells remaining.  The fight turned a lot nastier than I estimated, and dang if that wasn't a whole lot of fun.  I had to fight tooth and nail and scrape together every possible resource I had left to survive the fight.  At the end Eder had 18 (!) health left out of 600-ish, I had zero spells left in the whole party, and had burned through about every potion I had.  But every party member survived, Eder only by withdrawing around a corner in the final 30 seconds of battle so he didn't get beat on any more.

 

That was maybe the most fun I've ever had in a PoE battle.  Without the game gently guiding me into this play style, would I have experienced that?  I doubt it.

 

So yeah, I don't think the mechanic is perfect or anything, but I appreciate that they were trying to do something to improve the way a lot of prior CRPGs have worked.  I hope they keep and refine the idea going forward, or at least substitute something akin to it.  It's not perfect, but there are much worse things they could have done.

[why]

I've been playing the game again recently and I haven't had any tedium regarding camping supplies. I limit my resting as best I can, which is easier against some enemies than others. The effect is exactly what it's meant to be. After battles, I have to balance the overall health of my party, the number of per rest abilities and spells, and the nature of the obstacles my party faces in the particular area.

 

The idea of using other consumables to increase decisions and consequences doesn't bother me. Bandages, for example, would be perfectly legit. I would submit that it boils down to simply tweaking the system right now. Instead of or perhaps in addition to one consumable, you add another. Meditation crystals sound iffy, but I suspect you were simply providing another example. I actually think the idea of creating more consumables would be even more tedious for some people and switching one consumable for another amounts to doing the same thing. However, I would be perfectly happy with the idea of tweaking it to simulate more situations.

 

There is simply no way to address the idea of resting in computer games that works perfectly. I see the rest at will idea as being inherently flawed just as much as the camping supplies idea. Eye of the beholder had rations, iron rations, and whatnot that folks carried, but a cleric could cast create food and that made for a lot of edible paper weights. The IE games let folks rest more or less at will with some areas off limits and maybe some random encounters. The old SSI pool of radiance games were by and large the same if I recall correctly, but some areas had so many random encounters that they might as well have been no rest areas. Every single one of these systems had folks who didn't like them. We don't need the internet or online forums to know that. The fact that designers keep trying to address the deficiencies in each system demonstrates that there isn't one system that meets universal approval. Since that's the case, the argument against Pillar's camping supplies needs to amount to more than, "I don't like it this way." ...Or, more accurately, to be a compelling argument, it certainly needs more than personal preference.

[IndiraLightfoot]

I appreciate what they were trying to do with the camping mechanism, and I consider it a partial success.  It doesn't perfectly capture how I might want it to work, but I think it's a real improvement on rest-spam mechanics.

 

I'm playing V3 on PoD now, and I've had some really fun engagements by going with the flow the game guides me into.  It's a fun challenge to see how far into a dungeon I can dive with what's on my back + whatever I find along the way.  Last night I encountered a nasty fight when my party was already run ragged from a long stint of exploration.  Eder was down to 1/3 of his total health, Kana around 1/2, my PC wizard and Durance both about 1/3 of their total spells remaining.  The fight turned a lot nastier than I estimated, and dang if that wasn't a whole lot of fun.  I had to fight tooth and nail and scrape together every possible resource I had left to survive the fight.  At the end Eder had 18 (!) health left out of 600-ish, I had zero spells left in the whole party, and had burned through about every potion I had.  But every party member survived, Eder only by withdrawing around a corner in the final 30 seconds of battle so he didn't get beat on any more.

 

That was maybe the most fun I've ever had in a PoE battle.  Without the game gently guiding me into this play style, would I have experienced that?  I doubt it.

 

So yeah, I don't think the mechanic is perfect or anything, but I appreciate that they were trying to do something to improve the way a lot of prior CRPGs have worked.  I hope they keep and refine the idea going forward, or at least substitute something akin to it.  It's not perfect, but there are much worse things they could have done.

I couldn't agree more. Some of the most fun battles I've had in PoE are like this example. I don't see the tedium. Nor do I consider myself a CRPG masochist or anything. I just enjoy it when the game throws a spanner in the works for you in the right way, if you get my drift.

[Valorian]

 

You want to tie in resting mechanic to wealth management? That is a terrible idea. As it is most RPGs completely fail at creating meaningful economies and PoE is no exception. I have 100k gold right now near end-game. Adding resting supplies for a lot of money means that you will be either:

 

a) starved of camping supplies and your characters will have to stay wounded & lack spells

 

or 

 

b) you have more than enough money, resting mechanic becomes completely meaningless.

 

Most likely it will be the first case in low level gameplay and second in high level gameplay. 

 

 

a) That's the point if you rest like a maniac on a difficulty that punishes you for overusing the rest button.

 

b) If only there was such a thing as creating a meaningul economy in an RPG! Maybe it's possible, what do you think? 

 

(The cost would increase as you level up and get more health to heal and abilities to polish.) 

[archangel979]

None of those are good solutions. Best solution I seen so far was in D&D Online, each dungeon had a specific number of spots to rest and you could rest there once. Outside of those dungeons you could only rest in Inns or Taverns. If both players and game makers know in advance how many rests they get they can accommodate their play style. Then on easier difficulty you put in less enemies between rests and more for higher difficulty.

Players have to play better on higher difficulty to reach the rest spots.

It is also much easier to balance dungeons this way as you can control the number of encounters in dungeons (or any other area where it is not super easy to go back to Inn). Dungeons could have time sensitive quests to prevent players just going out all the time or have enemies repopulate the dungeons if players leave.

Edited February 24, 2016 by archangel979

[anameforobsidian]

 

Gfted to be blunt, I think it's understandable why you find the counterarguments to 'more options' puzzling, but that's because you're imagining a really crap counterargument. Nobody cares if you want to play that way. But by the same token it's not like the devs should provide enough buttons for every player's idiosyncratic desires. And in the case of camping supplies, you already have a button, use it. If some people just want to use noclip in, say, Jedi Knight II, and zoom around like a ghost through the walls, they can - but there would be no cause to argue it should be installed as an official toggle.

I don't follow but perhaps I am unclear. Its already official. So far what we know about V3.0:

 

1) Story mode exists.

2) Story mode allows unlimited supplies.

3) The "resources" herp derp is obviously not an issue.

4) See above for "the devs vision".

 

So trying to suggest that the existence of this option ruins the game is just hot air. Some players don't like the option, so therefore it must not be included in any form, else the source code for PoE will self delete, or something? C'mon. Don't push the button if you don't like what the button does.

 

 

That is a terrible argument.  Just willfully dense for the sake of being contrary.  Tigranes argument is not that hard to understand.  Games are defined by their limitations, i.e. rules.  It is where designer intention shows itself.

 

 

1.  The existence of mode of an optional mode of play is not a strong signifier of designer intent.  Many times the designer, particularly this designer, estimates what challenge the market will bear and then adds their true intent as increased difficulty.  Note the difference between base FNV, hardcore mode, and the JE Sawyer mod.

Game makers put in easy modes all the time when they lavish attention on harder difficulties.  It's called wanting to sell your work.  There are philosophies of game design based around this concept (Nintendo for one).

 

2.  The fact that resources were put in early on, and were specifically addressed in difficulty modes is a signifier of designer intent.  The fact that the designer has acted to further limit the number of spells cast per day is a further signifier of designer intent.

 

3.  This is doubly true of the spell and potion Barring Death's Door.  It is rare that a semi-decent player ever runs out of health on lower difficulty levels, with more frequent resting.  If you're consistently greylining characters or running out of spells that means either you're playing poorly or the limited rest supplies aren't much of an issue in the first place.  It's not like supplies are scare.

 

4.  Story mode exists and allows practically unlimited supplies.  It already is an option in the game.  If you want to reduce the challenge in the game, the button is already in there.  And yes, rest spam is reduced difficulty.  I don't see how anyone could think 4-6x the health and spells per battle does not reduce the difficulty.  This is doubly true when your characters effectively get infinite level 6 spells.  Yes, you can choose not to use them, but that's not the same thing as not being able to use them.  Don't move the difficulty slider if you don't like what it does.

Edited February 25, 2016 by anameforobsidian

[Koth]

Hey Armegar,

 

Each difficulty has a different allotted amount of camping supplies to it. Also there is a fair amount of camping supplies scattered throughout the world. If you know of any specific areas that are lacking in camping supplies we'd want to correct that. Some of your suggestions are interesting and we are always looking for 'better' ways of implementing any features in our games.

 

Story Time - ∞

Easy - 6

Normal - 4

Hard - 2

Path of the Damned - 2

 

I got your back

-Sking

Hey You Beautiful (Sking), 

 

As per your request, I would love just 1 camping supply somewhere between your first entering the grounds of caed nua and maerwald for the first time.

 

Ideally I'd like to be able to clear the stronghold grounds, entrance way of the stronghold, 1st level "spider" infested dungeon area, 2nd level fight with maerwald encounter, as well as clear out the remaining level that Maerwald is on.

 

I play on PotD (2 supplies only) and I squeeze everything I possibly can out of each and every rest using scrolls, potions and consumables but I find that 2 rests is only barely enough to clear to the Maerwald encounter if I am able to pick the door that he is behind upon entering the level. I just want to be able to clear the rest of that same level that Maerwald is on including the spider queen. As it stands I have to trek all the way back to GV and then back again just to clear the remainder this one level. Sure you could say suck it up, you're playing on PotD, but I think I'm pretty dang conservative with my rests and don't squander spells or needless health. Would love to find 1 camping supply somewhere in the spider infested 1st level of the keep. Anyway, Just my 2cp.

 

Cheers,

 

Koth.

[prodigydancer]

I admit I was skeptical about supplies during beta but since release I've yet to find myself actually limited by them. I certainly never had to buy them. My first playthrough was on Hard, then I switched to PotD. The game is challenging enough to my liking but it's not crazy challenging. If you know mechanics well, optimize your party setup and carefully micromanage every fight you can do a lot between rests even on PotD (even more now that Fatigue is practically gone).

 

I don't like to say "L2P" but really, anyone who feels the need to rest after every battle should either step up their game or switch to Story Mode.

Edited February 25, 2016 by prodigydancer

[Lord_Mord]

 

That would be a better way in the survival genre or in PoE as an optional toggle, but not by default. You can't risk a situation when the player runs out of available supplies and further progression is impossible.

 

That is why I said, I would combine them with one or more of Arnegars suggestions. What for example about creating additional supplies with a survival ability? You could use that, if you want. But if your the kind of player that wants to play with the limited amount of supplies the game gives you, you could focus on other things, like heal multiplier, damage reduction or whatever.

Edited February 25, 2016 by Lord_Mord

[prodigydancer]

It's not 100% on-topic but may be worth mentioning: one reason why I feel more like pushing myself to the limit in 3.0 is that combat has improved so much since vanilla. Even trash fights are more interesting. Positioning is more important, attack timing is more important (esp. with ground-targeting AoE). Movement is less constrained (I'd still prefer to see Engagement completely gone but the way it is now I can live with it). Finally, casting a spell is now a tactical decision even at higher levels.

 

Back in the 1.x era I wouldn't blame anyone for being lazy and rest spamming because most fights were - let's be honest - fairly boring. Now it's actually fun to experiment in PoE. Brute force is (almost always) the worst approach. So don't rush. Pause and assess the situation. Try to predict what the AI will do and be ready to retaliate. You'll find yourself losing less health, resting less often and your journey will be far more enjoyable and memorable.

Edited February 25, 2016 by prodigydancer

[Doppelschwert]

Hey You Beautiful (Sking), 

 

As per your request, I would love just 1 camping supply somewhere between your first entering the grounds of caed nua and maerwald for the first time.

 

Ideally I'd like to be able to clear the stronghold grounds, entrance way of the stronghold, 1st level "spider" infested dungeon area, 2nd level fight with maerwald encounter, as well as clear out the remaining level that Maerwald is on.

 

I play on PotD (2 supplies only) and I squeeze everything I possibly can out of each and every rest using scrolls, potions and consumables but I find that 2 rests is only barely enough to clear to the Maerwald encounter if I am able to pick the door that he is behind upon entering the level. I just want to be able to clear the rest of that same level that Maerwald is on including the spider queen. As it stands I have to trek all the way back to GV and then back again just to clear the remainder this one level. Sure you could say suck it up, you're playing on PotD, but I think I'm pretty dang conservative with my rests and don't squander spells or needless health. Would love to find 1 camping supply somewhere in the spider infested 1st level of the keep. Anyway, Just my 2cp.

 

Cheers,

 

Koth.

 

In my recent playthrough I turned on the dev audio commentary. In Od Nua 1, they explicitly adress that the rooms with tougher monsters are meant to push you towards the key to maerwald (apparently, the monsters on the path to the key are supposed to be easier) and that the rest of the first level is meant for coming back later (or something along those lines, at least thats what I remember).

 

That's not meant to tell you to suck it up though, just to get some perspective. My problem with conquering Od Nua on PotD would be that resting is prohibited in a lot of areas, so when I find myself wanting to rest I need to travel away and come back, even if I have some resting supplies.

[Gfted1]

That is a terrible argument.  Just willfully dense for the sake of being contrary.  Tigranes argument is not that hard to understand.  Games are defined by their limitations, i.e. rules.  It is where designer intention shows itself.

 

 

1.  The existence of mode of an optional mode of play is not a strong signifier of designer intent.  Many times the designer, particularly this designer, estimates what challenge the market will bear and then adds their true intent as increased difficulty.  Note the difference between base FNV, hardcore mode, and the JE Sawyer mod.

Game makers put in easy modes all the time when they lavish attention on harder difficulties.  It's called wanting to sell your work.  There are philosophies of game design based around this concept (Nintendo for one).

 

2.  The fact that resources were put in early on, and were specifically addressed in difficulty modes is a signifier of designer intent.  The fact that the designer has acted to further limit the number of spells cast per day is a further signifier of designer intent.

 

3.  This is doubly true of the spell and potion Barring Death's Door.  It is rare that a semi-decent player ever runs out of health on lower difficulty levels, with more frequent resting.  If you're consistently greylining characters or running out of spells that means either you're playing poorly or the limited rest supplies aren't much of an issue in the first place.  It's not like supplies are scare.

 

4.  Story mode exists and allows practically unlimited supplies.  It already is an option in the game.  If you want to reduce the challenge in the game, the button is already in there.  And yes, rest spam is reduced difficulty.  I don't see how anyone could think 4-6x the health and spells per battle does not reduce the difficulty.  This is doubly true when your characters effectively get infinite level 6 spells.  Yes, you can choose not to use them, but that's not the same thing as not being able to use them.  Don't move the difficulty slider if you don't like what it does.

How does any of that noise affect your gaming experience?

[demeisen]

Even trash fights are more interesting. ... Back in the 1.x era I wouldn't blame anyone for being lazy and rest spamming because most fights were - let's be honest - fairly boring.

 

Yeah!  I've been playing V3 on PoD recently after not playing since V1, and that's my experience too.  A lot of fights in V1 felt like just "phoning it in" - there was no challenge, no risk, nothing much to worry about.  They felt like filler in between occasional huge difficulty spikes, and honestly got a little tedious after a while.  Now in V3, a high percentage of the fights I've had have been fun.  I haven't even minded the intermittent low-risk fights with smaller groups of enemies.  When possible I save those until my party is low on supplies, spells, and health.  Then I clean up as many smaller groups as I can before finally resting.

[why]

 

stuff

How does any of that noise affect your gaming experience?

 

I'm not getting into the middle of the truly fine arguments about design because the only things I know about design come from reading more informed people in this forum. Speaking broadly from my limited knowledge, I will say this about options, though, and this is from direct observation lurking in these forums for a while and participating recently in the discussions:

 

Asking for options if you really want something is a good tactic. If you can't get what you want in the first place by agitating, you can at least get it through a back door argument.

 

First, someone agitates to get the exact thing he wants. Sometimes this works. I would point out that these people who end up pushing options don't typically start out asking for options in my experience. They push for what they want and, failing to get it, they push for a toggle granting what they want. Why don't they push for the option in the first place? Hmmm I don't hold it against folks wanting what they want. I don't even hold it against them wanting an option for what they want. I will say that granting every option in the base game is quite time consuming. Granting one thing that modifies something that's part of the base game might take resources that could go into putting something else in the game. In fact, since creating toggles can lead to strife in the development process, it might cause bugs or require a significant amount of extra work that prevents a bunch of extra content that could have ended up in the game.

 

That's not an argument against options. I think arguing for options is splendid and folks here should argue away. What I'm saying is that some options are easier to provide, some options have broader appeal, and some options have minimal or even trivial impact on the design vision. Those three things would be my test to see if an option should be provided. To reiterate:

 

1. easy

2. broad appeal

3. conforms to the essential vision

 

Moreover, these options don't exist on their own. There's the person who wants the option, the average player who should not be expected to wade through more options than basic rules in the first place, and players who will be impacted without even thinking about the consequences of including the option. Confused? bwahahaha My work is done! No, seriously, hear me out. I remember lurking around here years ago and I recently looked up some threads where people were arguing about combat experience points. First, a lot of people wanted to have combat experience, but that was never included. Instead, the compromise of a beastiary was included. Not exactly kill experience, but it did grant experience rewards for a lot of kills, especially early in the game. That's where the compromise ended, however, and a lot of folks still wanted combat experience. Many of them then offered a toggle. I don't know how easy that toggle would have been, but it definitely had broad appeal. There was at least a significant minority who wanted combat experience points. However, it completely failed to conform to the design vision. However, getting to the point of unforeseen consequences, if there had been an option to toggle combat experience points, a reasonable conclusion is that some people would have toggled to get the experience points and then been unhappy at the rate of leveling. That's already true in the game without combat kill experience. The design team would have been forced to account for some people getting a huge amount of experience points for kills while others getting none altogether. It's simply not feasible design. So, while it might have been technically easy, it would have been way more work on the level design and scaling end.

 

The short version:

 

The idea of options is typically, in my experience, is often a bad idea and used as a last resort by people who didn't want options but merely to get their way.

 

It can eat up resources better spent on working towards moar content.

 

While options can be good for the game, they should conform to three basic rules:

1. easy

2. broadly desired

3. aren't contrary to design vision.

 

4. I lied. There's a fourth. It should be simple to understand and not create more optional rules than base rules.

Edited February 25, 2016 by why

[Gfted1]

@why: The "resources" have already been spent as of V3. Story mode offers infinite camping supplies (see post #2). So with that out of the way, we are talking about adding a toggle box to the options menu, right? I will admit that what I know about programming wouldn't fill up a thimble, and perhaps creating a toggle box is a herculean task for developers, but I doubt it. With this in mind, a player would have to activate that toggle option, and then abuse the system to their own detriment. How much babysitting is expected out of a developer?

[why]

@why: The "resources" have already been spent as of V3. Story mode offers infinite camping supplies (see post #2). So with that out of the way, we are talking about adding a toggle box to the options menu, right? I will admit that what I know about programming wouldn't fill up a thimble, and perhaps creating a toggle box is a herculean task for developers, but I doubt it. With this in mind, a player would have to activate that toggle option, and then abuse the system to their own detriment. How much babysitting is expected out of a developer?

Good question. Actually, I thought about that whole limiting and expanding camping supplies thing myself after I'd posted and thought about addressing it, but, sometimes, you have to let things go. So, towards that end, I say it's time for a coffee break.

[redneckdevil]

I'm on break and I'll make this quick on my stance. Sorry just the whole "it's a single player game so what I do in my game shouldn't effect urs" is a piss poor excuse/argument when u have mods and console. U give us limits on something, most of us will play accirdling with those restrictions and try to beat the game overcoming those restrictions. When there is no restrictions, then we play to beat the game using those no restrictions.

Also the rest mechanic, if we had unlimited test mechanics, then 1. Fights would need to be designed for nova int. 2. People are more inclined to use said unrestricted

The thing is games have rules and we as players play within those rules. To those of us that don't wanna use console/mods, we play the game within the rules and guidelines it gives us. So if in the rules, supplies are unlimited then we rest spam because that's the way the game was designed. To restrict ourselves where the game doesn't, means we are playing outside that scope.

This game lets everyone have their cake and eat it too. Those that want to push themselves to see how far they can go with limited resources can by being reinforced by the game. Those that wanna rest spam can, but since the game isn't designed for that but still letting you, means that if u wanna go against the grain of the restrictions u can, it just means that u have to console, mod, or take time away from completing the objective and hike back into town.

I get to rest and push myself and those who wanna rest spam because they wanna blow all their spells and abilities to often can as well, they just have to take different routes. Playing the game as its intended vs playing the game with ur own vision of how things "should" be.

[redneckdevil]

Also story mode was created specifically for those who didn't want the difficulty of playing the game and just wanted to experience the story, so all they did was lower some numbers and gave them unlimited resting to make it easier.

Reread that last part.

 

Gave them unlimited resting to make the game EASIER....

[Koth]

 

Hey You Beautiful (Sking), 

 

As per your request, I would love just 1 camping supply somewhere between your first entering the grounds of caed nua and maerwald for the first time.

 

Ideally I'd like to be able to clear the stronghold grounds, entrance way of the stronghold, 1st level "spider" infested dungeon area, 2nd level fight with maerwald encounter, as well as clear out the remaining level that Maerwald is on.

 

I play on PotD (2 supplies only) and I squeeze everything I possibly can out of each and every rest using scrolls, potions and consumables but I find that 2 rests is only barely enough to clear to the Maerwald encounter if I am able to pick the door that he is behind upon entering the level. I just want to be able to clear the rest of that same level that Maerwald is on including the spider queen. As it stands I have to trek all the way back to GV and then back again just to clear the remainder this one level. Sure you could say suck it up, you're playing on PotD, but I think I'm pretty dang conservative with my rests and don't squander spells or needless health. Would love to find 1 camping supply somewhere in the spider infested 1st level of the keep. Anyway, Just my 2cp.

 

Cheers,

 

Koth.

 

In my recent playthrough I turned on the dev audio commentary. In Od Nua 1, they explicitly adress that the rooms with tougher monsters are meant to push you towards the key to maerwald (apparently, the monsters on the path to the key are supposed to be easier) and that the rest of the first level is meant for coming back later (or something along those lines, at least thats what I remember).

 

That's not meant to tell you to suck it up though, just to get some perspective. My problem with conquering Od Nua on PotD would be that resting is prohibited in a lot of areas, so when I find myself wanting to rest I need to travel away and come back, even if I have some resting supplies.

 

Yup, I have dev commentary on as well. However the counter argument here arises when you don't have sufficient mechanics to unlock the door the Maerwald's chamber upon immediate entry to the zone / level and have to take the "long" way around which involves clearing a significant portion of this level out to get to his room via the alternative route. I submit that doing so is nearly an impossibility without having to travel back to GV for a refresh in supplies.

Edited February 25, 2016 by Koth

[peko]

 

Isn't the key to Maerwald's room in an adjacent room, a couple of spiders and a few xaurips being all you have to defeat to get it?