Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens

[Drowsy Emperor]

How did it work the first time, depleting the star is a bit final.

 

As for Hux's screeching speech with that silly hate, was the delivery. Not sure what my expectations have to do with it being crap or not.

 

 

 

There's the whole aspect of all the principal bad guys being white males (Kylo Ren looks like the DOOM playing type that would shoot up a high school) (and a blonde, blue eyed girl that had no role whatsoever) while the main good guys are: a woman, a black guy and a latinoish pilot. The implicit racism is mildly distasteful. 

Edited December 27, 2015 by Drowsy Emperor

[Malcador]

Nahh, the bad guys are always pasty British is a staple. Heh, though now that I recalled it, I can't get over that stupid hat he's wearing - what purpose does the wing like things at the side serve ?! . The guy playing Hux does have nice teeth though, that's one thing in his favour.

 

Some things changed in appearance from the OT make sense, the armour, the fighter designs (as if anything was wrong with the original X-Wing ). Not sure what the new stormtrooper rifles are improved by having white fairing though.

[Hurlshort]

 

 

There's the whole aspect of all the principal bad guys being white males (Kylo Ren looks like the DOOM playing type that would shoot up a high school) (and a blonde, blue eyed girl that had no role whatsoever) while the main good guys are: a woman, a black guy and a latinoish pilot. The implicit racism is mildly distasteful. 

 

 

That is total BS.  You are reading racist crap into something that is just not there.  All that really matters is if these people can act, and they can.

[Rostere]

As for Hux's screeching speech with that silly hate, was the delivery. Not sure what my expectations have to do with it being crap or not.

 

I thought Hux' speech was good since it seemed pretty representative of its real-world counterpart. I mean look at "silly haters" giving speeches such as this and this. Do you think they sound unrealistically screeching? I am willing to bet anything that JJ gave directions for Domhnall Gleeson to imitate them.

 

(I agree that the speeches I linked to seem full of "silly hate". But that's pretty much the way things are in reality with certain ideologies...)

 

There's the whole aspect of all the principal bad guys being white males while the main good guys are: a woman, a black guy and a latinoish pilot. The implicit racism is mildly distasteful. 

 

I don't know, man. If the good guys had all been white males, and the bad guys a woman, a black dude and a latinoish pilot, would that have been racist? I don't think so...

[ktchong]

CNN: 'Star Wars: The Force Awakens' makes $1 billion in a record 12 days (beats Jurassic World's record by one day.)

Edited December 27, 2015 by ktchong

[Malcador]

Never did I say it wasn't realistic, just didn't find it good for an imperious speech. Seems unnecessary in a way as well, no need to inflame the passions of a brainwashed army.

 

Hate was meant to be hat. Sorry, did that post on mobile.

[Drowsy Emperor]

 

As for Hux's screeching speech with that silly hate, was the delivery. Not sure what my expectations have to do with it being crap or not.

 

I thought Hux' speech was good since it seemed pretty representative of its real-world counterpart. I mean look at "silly haters" giving speeches such as this and this. Do you think they sound unrealistically screeching? I am willing to bet anything that JJ gave directions for Domhnall Gleeson to imitate them.

 

(I agree that the speeches I linked to seem full of "silly hate". But that's pretty much the way things are in reality with certain ideologies...)

 

There's the whole aspect of all the principal bad guys being white males while the main good guys are: a woman, a black guy and a latinoish pilot. The implicit racism is mildly distasteful. 

 

I don't know, man. If the good guys had all been white males, and the bad guys a woman, a black dude and a latinoish pilot, would that have been racist? I don't think so...

 

 

Writing and delivering speeches is hard work. I also found Hux's speech embarrassing, unsurprising since it was written by some amateur with no experience in propaganda. The links you pasted are not a good example, Hitler was a very talented orator and many of his speeches are very well constructed. Its easy to disregard them now after years of use as an example of political hysteria (usually without a translation, which leaves people intimidated by the tone only), but for the time there were few better.

 

But Hollywood would never do that would they?

 

Anyway the same applies either way. Political correctness is oozing and obvious from the casting choices . While that in of itself isn't important, it is interesting that all the bad guys are white (delivering speeches in full futuristic nazi garb - even the principal colors of the flag are there as if the viewer is stupid enough not to notice all the allusions).

Neither aspect is notable on its own, but when you look at the whole thing the cheesy politicking behind it all is rather obvious? Perhaps even automatic to the point that it doesn't actually require politicking. 

 

I don't particularly care either way, but it just something I noticed while watching the film.

Edited December 27, 2015 by Drowsy Emperor

[Drowsy Emperor]

Nahh, the bad guys are always pasty British is a staple. Heh, though now that I recalled it, I can't get over that stupid hat he's wearing - what purpose does the wing like things at the side serve ?! . The guy playing Hux does have nice teeth though, that's one thing in his favour.

 

Some things changed in appearance from the OT make sense, the armour, the fighter designs (as if anything was wrong with the original X-Wing ). Not sure what the new stormtrooper rifles are improved by having white fairing though.

 

Presumably to keep his ears warm. But its not a great costume choice for a film.

[HoonDing]

Darth Blofeld

[Ganrich]

I caught this, finally. I saw it a few days ago on the morning of Christmas Eve. I enjoyed it. I thought it was better than Episodes 1, 2, and 3. That's all I asked for. I wasn't surprised by anything in the movie, and I did survive to avoid spoilers prior to seeing it.

[Woldan]

Watched it today.

Off the top of my head:

 

 

!!SPOILER!!

 

 

 

Pros:
- Believable jump from 70's to the modern age sci-fi technology.
- I really liked the main actress, her acting was good. Same with the other new actors.
- Nice visuals and careful non-over exaggerated use of 3D effects.
- Things that served to make a connection to the old films did not feel ham-fisted, mostly.
- Some scenes were really funny
- Nice designs of new species and vehicles / ships

Cons:
- Bland story, too much Death Star MK2
- Like the old Imperium, the New Order consist of utter fools who have no idea about military strategies, tactics and internal security. As bad as ever.
- Same with the main bad guy, why is that badguy-puppy in charge of such much men and material despite being obviously emotionally unstable and incompetent?
- Surprisingly bad CGI, for example Snoke hologram
- Phasma - completely wasted side character.
- The generals speech was a little bit unconvincing, lets murder a few planets with a few hundred billion people on them because we don't like them much. And because LOUD WORDS & RAAAAGE
- I can't stop thinking they killed off Han to give Rey the Falcon.

- Finn losing it on his first mission was highly unbelievable, didn't he receive tons of military training and conditioning? 

 

 

 

Edited December 28, 2015 by Woldan

[Raithe]

[Rostere]

Never did I say it wasn't realistic, just didn't find it good for an imperious speech. Seems unnecessary in a way as well, no need to inflame the passions of a brainwashed army.

 

Did you expect to be convinced by the speech? Can you give an example of what the speech should have been like?

 

Yeah, but you could also make the argument that Hitler and Stalin had no need to further inflame the passions of their brainwashed armies as well. Yet they held speeches. Why?

 

Writing and delivering speeches is hard work. I also found Hux's speech embarrassing, unsurprising since it was written by some amateur with no experience in propaganda.

 

I don't get it. Did you expect to be convinced by the speech? To me it's just as convincing, and embarrassing, as its real-world counterparts.

 

 

The links you pasted are not a good example, Hitler was a very talented orator and many of his speeches are very well constructed.

 

Okay. So what are good examples?

 

 

Its easy to disregard them now after years of use as an example of political hysteria (usually without a translation, which leaves people intimidated by the tone only), but for the time there were few better.

 

I am very interested in the time period and have read Hitler's speeches, contemporary books based on interviews with him and so on. He does not strike me as being significantly better - or worse - than other notable speakers of the era (but we have to remember that this was the dawn of mass media such as the radio, loudspeakers and so on, so speeches suddenly became more important than earlier in general - this should not be confused with the quality of the speaker himself).

 

 

Anyway the same applies either way. Political correctness is oozing and obvious from the casting choices . While that in of itself isn't important, it is interesting that all the bad guys are white (delivering speeches in full futuristic nazi garb - even the principal colors of the flag are there as if the viewer is stupid enough not to notice all the allusions).

Neither aspect is notable on its own, but when you look at the whole thing the cheesy politicking behind it all is rather obvious? Perhaps even automatic to the point that it doesn't actually require politicking.

 

I agree that the portrayal of the FO could have been more subtle, currently, they are ticking basically every box on my "literally Nazis" checklist. I chuckled when I watched the movie because I thought it was a accurate portrayal of extremist aesthetics. But let us also remember that Hux is only a General among many, I think his character stands apart from earlier Imperial officers - Hux is young and ambitious, a scion of a prominent family, but without practical experience. He's the King Joffrey or Draco Malfoy of the First Order, which we haven't really seen before. The fact that such a person can attain the rank of General either speaks of him having great theoretical knowledge, or it gives the First Order an aristocratic vibe, probably both.

 

In another not-so subtle move, the leader of the Republic at the time of the attack of the First Order is called "Lanever Villecham".

Edited December 28, 2015 by Rostere

[Elerond]

 

Never did I say it wasn't realistic, just didn't find it good for an imperious speech. Seems unnecessary in a way as well, no need to inflame the passions of a brainwashed army.

 

Did you expect to be convinced by the speech? Can you give an example of what the speech should have been like?

 

Yeah, but you could also make the argument that Hitler and Stalin had no need to further inflame the passions of their brainwashed armies as well. Yet they held speeches. Why?

 

I would say that problem with his speech is not style or even content (content on such speeches don't really even matter if we believe studies as speaker's performance and charisma are the things that convinces listeners that message that they hear is the truth not the words), but that its performance is unconvincing. Of course such speeches are very difficult to perform in convincing manner, but in my opinion if you can't do them well you should not do them, because when such speeches fail they just make everything they are linked look worse.

 

Of course if one things the speech in movie was convincing and Hux had charismatic presence needed then the speech probably felt that it was good addition to the movie, but for me, who didn't find speech convincing and didn't felt that Hux has enough charismatic presence, the speech just felt flat and unnecessary. I see how the speech probably was meant to give First Order fascistic wipe, but in my opinion it mostly made First Order look like wannabe evils that don't really know what they believe in. In other words speech didn't make me feel dread, scared, inspired, etc. but instead it just felt dull. So I see what its purpose probably was, but for me it just failed to play that part, which makes it bad.

[213374U]

on the other hand we do not know if Kylo Ren has received any training at fighting with a lightsabre at all. In fact, him using never before seen force powers but still not being an unbeatable fighter would perhaps hint towards the nature of his master.

I may be misremembering things, but isn't it implied when they are explaining why Luke decided to take a Sabbatical that Kylo is the one student of his that lost it and "destroyed everything"? That would mean he does have at least basic training. Either that, or we have another failed student and maybe Luke coming back and training more Jedi isn't such a good idea after all.

 

It didn't bother me at all that Rey could kick his ass 1v1 me irl m9. But the whole "oh I can use the force lolol" was... out of the blue. Sure, have you felt the awakening and stuff, but leaving the explanation for the sequels (if at all) is, I think, a ham-fisted way to foreshadow the obligatory [PLOT TWIST!].

 

Still, no Jar Jar, Ewoks, or disquisitions on the nature of disintegrated rock, so I'm fairly happy overall.

[Hurlshort]

Kylo is called the master of the Knights of Ren, so he was clearly up there in the training.  But it's just a movie folks.  

 

[Rostere]

I would say that problem with his speech is not style or even content (content on such speeches don't really even matter if we believe studies as speaker's performance and charisma are the things that convinces listeners that message that they hear is the truth not the words), but that its performance is unconvincing. Of course such speeches are very difficult to perform in convincing manner, but in my opinion if you can't do them well you should not do them, because when such speeches fail they just make everything they are linked look worse.

Of course if one things the speech in movie was convincing and Hux had charismatic presence needed then the speech probably felt that it was good addition to the movie, but for me, who didn't find speech convincing and didn't felt that Hux has enough charismatic presence, the speech just felt flat and unnecessary. I see how the speech probably was meant to give First Order fascistic wipe, but in my opinion it mostly made First Order look like wannabe evils that don't really know what they believe in. In other words speech didn't make me feel dread, scared, inspired, etc. but instead it just felt dull. So I see what its purpose probably was, but for me it just failed to play that part, which makes it bad.

 

But what do you feel when you look at this speech? I mean, if we claim that it's not "convincing" we must compare it to the real deal.

 

In my opinion, many speeches by actual authoritarian politicians make them feel like "wannabe evils that don't really know what they believe in" apart from the aesthetic of a personal cult and general bellicosity.

 

I may be misremembering things, but isn't it implied when they are explaining why Luke decided to take a Sabbatical that Kylo is the one student of his that lost it and "destroyed everything"? That would mean he does have at least basic training. Either that, or we have another failed student and maybe Luke coming back and training more Jedi isn't such a good idea after all.

 

It is implied, and IMO it is also Kylo Ren. But that only says he has gotten training from Luke - we don't know if he received any lightsaber training specifically. In my opinion, the lightsaber Kylo Ren has does not look like if he built it under the guidance of Luke.

 

 

It didn't bother me at all that Rey could kick his ass 1v1 me irl m9. But the whole "oh I can use the force lolol" was... out of the blue. Sure, have you felt the awakening and stuff, but leaving the explanation for the sequels (if at all) is, I think, a ham-fisted way to foreshadow the obligatory [PLOT TWIST!].

 

I think it is very clear that Rey has some kind of mysterious past, or some other reason for being able to use the Force so quickly. And it is blatantly obvious that you are supposed to think "Hmm... I wonder why she had such an affinity/hidden talent".

[Elerond]

 

I would say that problem with his speech is not style or even content (content on such speeches don't really even matter if we believe studies as speaker's performance and charisma are the things that convinces listeners that message that they hear is the truth not the words), but that its performance is unconvincing. Of course such speeches are very difficult to perform in convincing manner, but in my opinion if you can't do them well you should not do them, because when such speeches fail they just make everything they are linked look worse.

 

Of course if one things the speech in movie was convincing and Hux had charismatic presence needed then the speech probably felt that it was good addition to the movie, but for me, who didn't find speech convincing and didn't felt that Hux has enough charismatic presence, the speech just felt flat and unnecessary. I see how the speech probably was meant to give First Order fascistic wipe, but in my opinion it mostly made First Order look like wannabe evils that don't really know what they believe in. In other words speech didn't make me feel dread, scared, inspired, etc. but instead it just felt dull. So I see what its purpose probably was, but for me it just failed to play that part, which makes it bad.

 

But what do you feel when you look at this speech? I mean, if we claim that it's not "convincing" we must compare it to the real deal.

 

I can't make comparison as I don't understand Italian. And yet reactions from audience make Mussolini's speech have bigger emotional reaction in me than Hux's speech (which I understand) which gives some indication how poorly Hux's speech scene worked for me.

 

But any way we don't need to compare it to real deal, because it is movie that is set to scifi universe that don't exist in real life and it does not portray historic figures, events, etc.. So it can't excuse performance that don't impact viewer by appealing historic examples. Meaning it is moment in movie that itself need to justify its existence and in my opinion it fails and by doing so it makes movie duller experience. 

[FlintlockJazz]

I have to say, that is true.  That Stormtrooper was actually rather badass and he also expressed motivations that you could relate to ("You traitor!" doesn't tell you much but it tells you that he feels betrayed by Finn's actions and feels a sense of duty to his comrades enough to feel anger at betrayal).  I actually wanted to know more about that guy, it was like "He could have just shot Finn but instead he does an honour duel and kicks his arse at it too, who is this guy?"

[Rostere]

 

 

I would say that problem with his speech is not style or even content (content on such speeches don't really even matter if we believe studies as speaker's performance and charisma are the things that convinces listeners that message that they hear is the truth not the words), but that its performance is unconvincing. Of course such speeches are very difficult to perform in convincing manner, but in my opinion if you can't do them well you should not do them, because when such speeches fail they just make everything they are linked look worse.

 

Of course if one things the speech in movie was convincing and Hux had charismatic presence needed then the speech probably felt that it was good addition to the movie, but for me, who didn't find speech convincing and didn't felt that Hux has enough charismatic presence, the speech just felt flat and unnecessary. I see how the speech probably was meant to give First Order fascistic wipe, but in my opinion it mostly made First Order look like wannabe evils that don't really know what they believe in. In other words speech didn't make me feel dread, scared, inspired, etc. but instead it just felt dull. So I see what its purpose probably was, but for me it just failed to play that part, which makes it bad.

 

But what do you feel when you look at this speech? I mean, if we claim that it's not "convincing" we must compare it to the real deal.

 

I can't make comparison as I don't understand Italian. And yet reactions from audience make Mussolini's speech have bigger emotional reaction in me than Hux's speech (which I understand) which gives some indication how poorly Hux's speech scene worked for me.

 

But any way we don't need to compare it to real deal, because it is movie that is set to scifi universe that don't exist in real life and it does not portray historic figures, events, etc.. So it can't excuse performance that don't impact viewer by appealing historic examples. Meaning it is moment in movie that itself need to justify its existence and in my opinion it fails and by doing so it makes movie duller experience. 

 

Okay. But if you do understand German, then you could take any of Hitler's speeches instead.

 

My point is that I don't expect you to feel roused by Hitler's or Mussolini's speeches even if you did understand them. I certainly don't. So I think the criticism against Hux's speech that you didn't feel an "emotional impact" is practically moot. He needed to portray a certain type of speech accurately, which he did in my opinion. There is something seriously wrong when the director tries his hardest to portray Space Nazis, and then people say that they don't feel any emotional impact from the speeches giving us an insight into their psychology. Guess what, luckily most of the audience don't feel any "emotional impact" from speeches by Actual Nazis either. And that's what you would expect.

 

Now you could argue that the entire concept of the First Order and the Empire is just too blatantly just Space Nazis, but that would be a much deeper criticism of the entire Star Wars mythos.

[Elerond]

 

 

 

I would say that problem with his speech is not style or even content (content on such speeches don't really even matter if we believe studies as speaker's performance and charisma are the things that convinces listeners that message that they hear is the truth not the words), but that its performance is unconvincing. Of course such speeches are very difficult to perform in convincing manner, but in my opinion if you can't do them well you should not do them, because when such speeches fail they just make everything they are linked look worse.

 

Of course if one things the speech in movie was convincing and Hux had charismatic presence needed then the speech probably felt that it was good addition to the movie, but for me, who didn't find speech convincing and didn't felt that Hux has enough charismatic presence, the speech just felt flat and unnecessary. I see how the speech probably was meant to give First Order fascistic wipe, but in my opinion it mostly made First Order look like wannabe evils that don't really know what they believe in. In other words speech didn't make me feel dread, scared, inspired, etc. but instead it just felt dull. So I see what its purpose probably was, but for me it just failed to play that part, which makes it bad.

 

But what do you feel when you look at this speech? I mean, if we claim that it's not "convincing" we must compare it to the real deal.

 

I can't make comparison as I don't understand Italian. And yet reactions from audience make Mussolini's speech have bigger emotional reaction in me than Hux's speech (which I understand) which gives some indication how poorly Hux's speech scene worked for me.

 

But any way we don't need to compare it to real deal, because it is movie that is set to scifi universe that don't exist in real life and it does not portray historic figures, events, etc.. So it can't excuse performance that don't impact viewer by appealing historic examples. Meaning it is moment in movie that itself need to justify its existence and in my opinion it fails and by doing so it makes movie duller experience. 

 

Okay. But if you do understand German, then you could take any of Hitler's speeches instead.

 

My point is that I don't expect you to feel roused by Hitler's or Mussolini's speeches even if you did understand them. I certainly don't. So I think the criticism against Hux's speech that you didn't feel an "emotional impact" is practically moot. He needed to portray a certain type of speech accurately, which he did in my opinion. There is something seriously wrong when the director tries his hardest to portray Space Nazis, and then people say that they don't feel any emotional impact from the speeches giving us an insight into their psychology. Guess what, luckily most of the audience don't feel any "emotional impact" from speeches by Actual Nazis either. And that's what you would expect.

 

Now you could argue that the entire concept of the First Order and the Empire is just too blatantly just Space Nazis, but that would be a much deeper criticism of the entire Star Wars mythos.

 

 

My understanding of German is not well enough to understand his speeches.

 

Director can try portray space nazis as much he wants but if his efforts leave viewer bored then he has failed in what he tried to do (if boring the viewers wasn't what he tried to do)

 

Space Nazis in my opinion felt much more threating and their speeched more impactful in Iron Sky (which is just low budget comedy about Nazis that fled in Moon after WW2 and now are coming back to conquer world)

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joTf7I1gel0

[Drowsy Emperor]

You don't have to feel roused, you just have to feel that the actor is doing the role properly. Which he isn't. He looks, as someone else put it, like a frat boy. He is not intimidating or convincing in the role. Its not (just) his youth, since Alexander the great was already a conqueror at his age - its the whole package. 

 

While the scene was going on, my friend and I both turned away at the same time at how embarrassing the whole thing was. It wasn't even a conscious decision, we just couldn't look at this somewhat comical looking guy trying to be gestapo. And the scene was not intentionally comical, just badly written.

[Hurlshort]

It wasn't one of the powerful moments from the movie, sure, but really all it is supposed to do is set the stage for the big weapon to fire.  The real important moments for me were how they handled the one on one character interactions, and I thought those were great.    

 

Was Moff Tarkin a better character?  Sure.  But they are still minor characters in the grand scheme, so who really cares?  

[Malcador]

Did you expect to be convinced by the speech? Can you give an example of what the speech should have been like?

 

Yeah, but you could also make the argument that Hitler and Stalin had no need to further inflame the passions of their brainwashed armies as well. Yet they held speeches. Why?

Not sure Stalin did it to the extent that the First Order did supposedly, what with them taken from birth and indoctrinated (apparently Finn is special or skipped classes). First Order seem just as soulless as the Empire, even when silently fisting the air. I guess I was expecting a less frenzied screeching speech, if I had to expect a speech, something a bit more cold. I don't need to feel some emotional impact by it, just don't need to get a sense of someone trying too hard. The guy playing Hux wasn't all that bad, the snarky bits with him and Ren acting like **** grad students aside.

[FlintlockJazz]

The true breakout character in the film.  The true hero...

 

Edited December 29, 2015 by FlintlockJazz