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A closer analysis on class balance and the 2.03 patch

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Hello everyone, so first off, i don't post here much, but i have considering that i found some things i think vitally worthy of dicussion considering the games current state. So to kick things off, here's a video review of the latest version of PoE that i consider to be really well thought out by a person who has been thorough with their analysis:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Polkiqr8gOo

 

I like this game. Alot. I wouldn't have spent time analyzing it so much if i simply wanted to bash it, but the latest patch is profoundly amazing in its ridiculousness. Alot of enemies have been given certain immunities, but what practical effects do they actually have on the game?

 

Giving so many enemies immunities to Knock Down and Barbaric Yell, are not inept, but completely cripple the build varieites of classes that aren't even among the strongest (Barb and Fighter) while having absolutely no effect on high dps classes. So what's the point?

 

This latest patch claims to buff the Fighter by giving him an irrelevant  plus 5 to deflection, (what?) yet actually destroys the practicallity of his knock down ability by making so many enemies immune that he's restricted to less skill variety for more efficiency minded players. This alone makes the latest patch totally arbitrary. I don't even use a Knock Down focused Fighter build so i'm not making this thread to complain, i'm just totally perplexed by this latest patch, when perhaps, time could be spent by the devs towards makings substantial changes in the game.

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I can confirm that the appeal of the Knock Down ability is finding enemies and knocking them down. 

 

Take that away, and you have a trap masquerading as a class choice. 

Edited by Parasol_Syndicate

Magran's fire casts light in Dark Places...

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Personally I don't have an issue with abilities or talents that don't work flawlessly every time they are used against every type of enemy or situation - I think it goes a long way towards adding to the complexity of the games challenges - otherwise it's relatively easy to discover a set of tactics that works every time which trivializes gameplay down to:  do this - win the battle - wash rinse and repeat until the game is over. Not my definition of fun - I have fun PLAYING the game - not necessarily just BEATING the game.

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Nomadic Wayfarer of the Obsidian Order


 

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How many enemies do have these immunities?

And how many have them for abilities often used by other characters?

 

I remember my cleric using his knockdown ward often and that spell was much more powerful than what fighter has and it became encounter spell. So I would say Cleric got a bigger nerf. Wizard used terrify effects often enough to debuff enemies, so wizard is also nerfed.

 

That "review" is just a forum post of a single person in video format.

 

And at the end of a day, this is a team based game and it is only important that the team can still function. Immunities bring new challenges to overcome for the whole team, not individual characters.

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That "review" is just a forum post of a single person in video format.

 

And at the end of a day, this is a team based game and it is only important that the team can still function. Immunities bring new challenges to overcome for the whole team, not individual characters.

 

Naturally i don't consider any "review" by any outlet anything but some random guys opinion.

 

My argument it's so much of a whine about a class i like being less useful but an argument in defense of any given class to make it worth using so the game has more replay value; Fighters are still rubbish dispite their arbitrary upgrade most likely doled out to appease fans who were mad about the petty -10 deflection issue, Druids with their extended animal form are by far still better tanks than fighters on top of being greater dps deliverers with great buff/debuff abilites to boot. Also, Paladins are still useful tanks with their per encounter heal abilites to provide icing on the cake. Fighters are not only offering nothing now, but provide even scantier build options to utilize with their already nearly universal ineptitude.

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Look I could take Eder (a guy about 6 foot tall maybe) and knock an adra dragon (about 30 feet tall weighing tons) on it's ass with a level 1 fighter ability.  Crap needing fixing.  It is that simple. 

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It's a video game, it's not a logic game, Breaking down the concept of a giant lizard and the specifics of how to damage it perhaps is as silly as trying to figure out why specific ogres provoke maggots to attack their adversaries. I didn't create this thread to aimlessly attack a game which i like alot, I'm simply trying to point out how this latest patch could have been focused on more practical issues, for example, possibly addressing that we don't have an option to disable auto-save, (the simplest of things) so our load menu doesn't take longer to access and isn't polluted with useless content.

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"It's a video game, it's not a logic game"

"this latest patch could have been focused on more practical issues"

 

So it's not a game of logic but a game of practicality? Hmm...

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i think the biggest change in 2.03 is the UNDOCUMENTED increase of enemy engagement "threat-zone", in addition to the also undocumented text pop-up displayed on a disengagement-attack.

I also opine the disengagement attacks' dmg values were increased/tweaked because I DEFINITELY notice in my current run on potd taking MUCH more damage, and MANY more disengagement attacks than ever before (due to the increased threat zone). the combat log does NOT specify the details of the disengagement-attacks so i can't present "proof", but all you have to do is get into a fight with some lions and try to kite them from close (i.e. just make them chase you) and you will immediately notice the lions "trapping" your unit as soon as they get close and immediately inflicting a disengagement-attack for considerably more damange than i've ever noticed before.

i picked lions to test with because they're fast, and unlike other mobs they don't give up chasing you (perhaps this is ALSO due to the 2.03 increased threat zone ranges). there is a very noticeable and new distance at which some enemies can land the disengagement-attack on your unit that was not there before.

NOTE: i play on potd, and it is POSSIBLE these changes i am detailing don't happen on other difficulties.

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I dislike immunities in general for this type of game, and specifically for PE because they go against the "no hard counters" philosophy of the original design of the game.

 

Debating realism in a video game is silly to begin with, but even if realism is the reasoning, and everyone agrees that a fighter shouldn't be able to knock down a dragon because realism, immunities are not the way to fix it because they are equally unrealistic. It is entirely plausible that a dragon could fall prone for any number of reasons, though perhaps not because of being struck by a human fighter (unless they had some sort of magical assistance - say, being enlarged to be as big as the dragon).

 

The more immunites are added to the game, the more it will revert towards a pure DPS shoot-em-up. This is because damage always works, nothing is immune to damage for obvious reasons. This was my experience in the infinity engine games - all of the miscellaneous effects and spells were too unreliable due to immunities, so you end up just casting every buff known to man and diabloing your way through the game.

 

Immunities are a blight on game design. Once you start down the dark path of immunities, forever will it dominate your destiny.

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Just wanted to pop in and give my 2 cents. I'm very excited about the addition of immunities, probably because I just started and don't have a saved game or favorite build to get messed up by the change. I could not finish Dragon age origins because the same strategy worked each fight. I recently bought sword coast legends and refunded it almost immediately when I learned that it has the same flaw. My brother was very iffy on this game until he learned about the immunities coming and became immediately excited. Maybe the current implementation of immunities isn't everyone's cup of tea, and it probably never will be, but I'm digging it. Once they make some tweaks, compensate for classes like the barbarian losing a lot, etc, I think it'll be great. Definite step in the right direction, imo.

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I think immunities are a great addition to the game and should have been there from the beginning. If not only for the logical reasons, at least for the gameplay ones. The original game was too easy and repetitive even on its highest difficulty when I could utilize same copy-paste tactics in almost every battle over and over – and it got boring really fast. Immunities bring the much-needed variety to combat encounters and while not fixing their rather lackluster design completely, it definitely improves them.

Edited by Tanred
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That "review" is just a forum post of a single person in video format.

 

And at the end of a day, this is a team based game and it is only important that the team can still function. Immunities bring new challenges to overcome for the whole team, not individual characters.

 

Naturally i don't consider any "review" by any outlet anything but some random guys opinion.

 

My argument it's so much of a whine about a class i like being less useful but an argument in defense of any given class to make it worth using so the game has more replay value; Fighters are still rubbish dispite their arbitrary upgrade most likely doled out to appease fans who were mad about the petty -10 deflection issue, Druids with their extended animal form are by far still better tanks than fighters on top of being greater dps deliverers with great buff/debuff abilites to boot. Also, Paladins are still useful tanks with their per encounter heal abilites to provide icing on the cake. Fighters are not only offering nothing now, but provide even scantier build options to utilize with their already nearly universal ineptitude.

 

And Immunities for enemies are not the problem causing Fighter's lack of usefulness but how Fighter itself is designed is the problem. Immunities give the whole party a new layer of tactical planning and they are a good thing. Edited by archangel979
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I dislike immunities in general for this type of game, and specifically for PE because they go against the "no hard counters" philosophy of the original design of the game.

Just as an aside there is a big difference between "Fire elemental is immune to fire" and "Cast Buff Y or Enemy Spell X will kill you." 

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A bit of overselling of immunities here original.gif

 

First, difficulty can be viewed as the removal of options, reducing the pool of viable builds. If you agree with this view than yes, the game became more difficult.

 

But if one is to "rinse, wash and repeat" skills to defeat enemies before. There is still going to be a "rinse, wash and repeat" of skills to defeat enemies now. Just some separation of the type of spells against the non-immune enemies types. Nothing was fundamentally changed in the way CC works so don't expect the immunities to miraculously give an incredible experience. I was thinking that CC has the graze/hit/crit mechanics too. Something more could have done with it and I read some suggestions on these forums that really sounded interesting. It would be nice to see some those suggestions implemented instead.

Edited by mosspit

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Look I could take Eder (a guy about 6 foot tall maybe) and knock an adra dragon (about 30 feet tall weighing tons) on it's ass with a level 1 fighter ability.  Crap needing fixing.  It is that simple. 

 

BAM, natural 20 :dancing:  dragon knocked out


It would be of small avail to talk of magic in the air...

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Look I could take Eder (a guy about 6 foot tall maybe) and knock an adra dragon (about 30 feet tall weighing tons) on it's ass with a level 1 fighter ability.  Crap needing fixing.  It is that simple. 

You're also able to poke the aforementioned 30 feet tall dragon to death with daggers. Also, you're somehow avoiding being flattened by his claws, which are likely heavier than your tank is. In addition, you also seem to be able to survive after he breathes fire directly on your face. 

Alternatively, you're such a good fighter that you can dance between his legs so well that the dragon missteps and ends up out of balance ( which, as a level 12-14 fighter is entirely believable. You're probably one of the top fighters in the whole world ), your rogue is so good that he can find and exploit a gap between the dragon's scales and actually damage him, and when the dragon tries to hit you with his claws or tail, you dodge out of the way at the last second and survive. 

"Crap" is subjective. Just because you dislike something and can't be bothered to find a believable explanation, it doesn't mean it makes no sense. 

PoE is a fantasy rpg, half the stuff that happens in combat could be labeled as "crap", by your standards.

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Look I could take Eder (a guy about 6 foot tall maybe) and knock an adra dragon (about 30 feet tall weighing tons) on it's ass with a level 1 fighter ability.  Crap needing fixing.  It is that simple.

 

You're also able to poke the aforementioned 30 feet tall dragon to death with daggers. Also, you're somehow avoiding being flattened by his claws, which are likely heavier than your tank is. In addition, you also seem to be able to survive after he breathes fire directly on your face. 

Alternatively, you're such a good fighter that you can dance between his legs so well that the dragon missteps and ends up out of balance ( which, as a level 12-14 fighter is entirely believable. You're probably one of the top fighters in the whole world ), your rogue is so good that he can find and exploit a gap between the dragon's scales and actually damage him, and when the dragon tries to hit you with his claws or tail, you dodge out of the way at the last second and survive. 

"Crap" is subjective. Just because you dislike something and can't be bothered to find a believable explanation, it doesn't mean it makes no sense. 

PoE is a fantasy rpg, half the stuff that happens in combat could be labeled as "crap", by your standards.

Have obsidian documented anywhere what immunities they have implemented? My understanding of it is you can no longer blind enemies with one eyes or charm enemies without brains.

 

If this is the case I don't see the problem with it. These changes will effect spell casters the most obvisouly.

 

It's called change people. Get used to it because this game changes more then I change my pants

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Look I could take Eder (a guy about 6 foot tall maybe) and knock an adra dragon (about 30 feet tall weighing tons) on it's ass with a level 1 fighter ability.  Crap needing fixing.  It is that simple.

You're also able to poke the aforementioned 30 feet tall dragon to death with daggers. Also, you're somehow avoiding being flattened by his claws, which are likely heavier than your tank is. In addition, you also seem to be able to survive after he breathes fire directly on your face. 

Alternatively, you're such a good fighter that you can dance between his legs so well that the dragon missteps and ends up out of balance ( which, as a level 12-14 fighter is entirely believable. You're probably one of the top fighters in the whole world ), your rogue is so good that he can find and exploit a gap between the dragon's scales and actually damage him, and when the dragon tries to hit you with his claws or tail, you dodge out of the way at the last second and survive. 

"Crap" is subjective. Just because you dislike something and can't be bothered to find a believable explanation, it doesn't mean it makes no sense. 

PoE is a fantasy rpg, half the stuff that happens in combat could be labeled as "crap", by your standards.

Have obsidian documented anywhere what immunities they have implemented? My understanding of it is you can no longer blind enemies with one eyes or charm enemies without brains.

 

If this is the case I don't see the problem with it. These changes will effect spell casters the most obvisouly.

 

It's called change people. Get used to it because this game changes more then I change my pants

 

Nope, the spellcasters have all the tools they need to play around immunities.

Adding immunities actually makes the spellcaster's playstyle more engaging, because while they're forced to find a different way to handle an opponent that's immune to, say, knockdown, they still have a plethora of debuffs at ther disposal, and can easily find another spell to cast.

It will likely be less effective, but most debuffs are still worth it (and, more importantly, you're still playing and choosing instead of just staying there ) and still impact the encounter in a significant way.

Martials are the ones who're more likely to see their tactical options reduced, simply because they have fewer options.When you're a fighter and your opponent is immune to knockdown, what do you do instead? Nothing, you stand there and auto-attack him to death.

In the end, games revolve around making the right choice ( and getting rewarded by the game's mechanics ). The kind of gameplay that this change enforces makes the spellcasters' playstyle more tactical, and the martials' more dull.

Edited by Njall
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Look I could take Eder (a guy about 6 foot tall maybe) and knock an adra dragon (about 30 feet tall weighing tons) on it's ass with a level 1 fighter ability.  Crap needing fixing.  It is that simple.

You're also able to poke the aforementioned 30 feet tall dragon to death with daggers. Also, you're somehow avoiding being flattened by his claws, which are likely heavier than your tank is. In addition, you also seem to be able to survive after he breathes fire directly on your face. 

Alternatively, you're such a good fighter that you can dance between his legs so well that the dragon missteps and ends up out of balance ( which, as a level 12-14 fighter is entirely believable. You're probably one of the top fighters in the whole world ), your rogue is so good that he can find and exploit a gap between the dragon's scales and actually damage him, and when the dragon tries to hit you with his claws or tail, you dodge out of the way at the last second and survive. 

"Crap" is subjective. Just because you dislike something and can't be bothered to find a believable explanation, it doesn't mean it makes no sense. 

PoE is a fantasy rpg, half the stuff that happens in combat could be labeled as "crap", by your standards.

Have obsidian documented anywhere what immunities they have implemented? My understanding of it is you can no longer blind enemies with one eyes or charm enemies without brains.

 

If this is the case I don't see the problem with it. These changes will effect spell casters the most obvisouly.

 

It's called change people. Get used to it because this game changes more then I change my pants

 

Nope, the spellcasters have all the tools they need to play around immunities.

Adding immunities actually makes the spellcaster's playstyle more engaging, because while they're forced to find a different way to handle an opponent that's immune to, say, knockdown, they still have a plethora of debuffs at ther disposal.

Martials are the ones who're more likely to see their tactical options reduced, simply because they have fewer options.When you're a fighter and your opponent is immune to knockdown, what do you do instead? Nothing, you stand there and auto-attack him to death.

In the end, games revolve around making the right choice ( and getting rewarded by the game's mechanics ). The kind of gameplay that this change enforces makes the spellcaster's playstyle more tactical, and the martial's more dull.

 

This.  Not all change is good, when my wizard can't affect something with a spell he uses a different spell, when Eder can't knock something down he realises yet again that he chose the wrong class in life.

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"That rabbit's dynamite!" - King Arthur, Monty Python and the Quest for the Holy Grail

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Look I could take Eder (a guy about 6 foot tall maybe) and knock an adra dragon (about 30 feet tall weighing tons) on it's ass with a level 1 fighter ability.  Crap needing fixing.  It is that simple.

 

You're also able to poke the aforementioned 30 feet tall dragon to death with daggers. Also, you're somehow avoiding being flattened by his claws, which are likely heavier than your tank is. In addition, you also seem to be able to survive after he breathes fire directly on your face. 

Alternatively, you're such a good fighter that you can dance between his legs so well that the dragon missteps and ends up out of balance ( which, as a level 12-14 fighter is entirely believable. You're probably one of the top fighters in the whole world ), your rogue is so good that he can find and exploit a gap between the dragon's scales and actually damage him, and when the dragon tries to hit you with his claws or tail, you dodge out of the way at the last second and survive. 

"Crap" is subjective. Just because you dislike something and can't be bothered to find a believable explanation, it doesn't mean it makes no sense. 

PoE is a fantasy rpg, half the stuff that happens in combat could be labeled as "crap", by your standards.

Have obsidian documented anywhere what immunities they have implemented? My understanding of it is you can no longer blind enemies with one eyes or charm enemies without brains.

If this is the case I don't see the problem with it. These changes will effect spell casters the most obvisouly.

It's called change people. Get used to it because this game changes more then I change my pants

Nope, the spellcasters have all the tools they need to play around immunities.

Adding immunities actually makes the spellcaster's playstyle more engaging, because while they're forced to find a different way to handle an opponent that's immune to, say, knockdown, they still have a plethora of debuffs at ther disposal, and can easily find another spell to cast.

It will likely be less effective, but most debuffs are still worth it (and, more importantly, you're still playing and choosing instead of just staying there ) and still impact the encounter in a significant way.

Martials are the ones who're more likely to see their tactical options reduced, simply because they have fewer options.When you're a fighter and your opponent is immune to knockdown, what do you do instead? Nothing, you stand there and auto-attack him to death.

In the end, games revolve around making the right choice ( and getting rewarded by the game's mechanics ). The kind of gameplay that this change enforces makes the spellcasters' playstyle more tactical, and the martials' more dull.

Well the spell casters obvisouly afflict the most afflictions...................am I missing something here? Perhaps they are considerably affected?

 

Knockdown sucked anyway, int is a dump stat for fighters so it's duration made it. Not worth using.

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Look I could take Eder (a guy about 6 foot tall maybe) and knock an adra dragon (about 30 feet tall weighing tons) on it's ass with a level 1 fighter ability.  Crap needing fixing.  It is that simple.

You're also able to poke the aforementioned 30 feet tall dragon to death with daggers. Also, you're somehow avoiding being flattened by his claws, which are likely heavier than your tank is. In addition, you also seem to be able to survive after he breathes fire directly on your face. 

Alternatively, you're such a good fighter that you can dance between his legs so well that the dragon missteps and ends up out of balance ( which, as a level 12-14 fighter is entirely believable. You're probably one of the top fighters in the whole world ), your rogue is so good that he can find and exploit a gap between the dragon's scales and actually damage him, and when the dragon tries to hit you with his claws or tail, you dodge out of the way at the last second and survive. 

"Crap" is subjective. Just because you dislike something and can't be bothered to find a believable explanation, it doesn't mean it makes no sense. 

PoE is a fantasy rpg, half the stuff that happens in combat could be labeled as "crap", by your standards.

Have obsidian documented anywhere what immunities they have implemented? My understanding of it is you can no longer blind enemies with one eyes or charm enemies without brains.

If this is the case I don't see the problem with it. These changes will effect spell casters the most obvisouly.

It's called change people. Get used to it because this game changes more then I change my pants

Nope, the spellcasters have all the tools they need to play around immunities.

Adding immunities actually makes the spellcaster's playstyle more engaging, because while they're forced to find a different way to handle an opponent that's immune to, say, knockdown, they still have a plethora of debuffs at ther disposal, and can easily find another spell to cast.

It will likely be less effective, but most debuffs are still worth it (and, more importantly, you're still playing and choosing instead of just staying there ) and still impact the encounter in a significant way.

Martials are the ones who're more likely to see their tactical options reduced, simply because they have fewer options.When you're a fighter and your opponent is immune to knockdown, what do you do instead? Nothing, you stand there and auto-attack him to death.

In the end, games revolve around making the right choice ( and getting rewarded by the game's mechanics ). The kind of gameplay that this change enforces makes the spellcasters' playstyle more tactical, and the martials' more dull.

Well the spell casters obvisouly afflict the most afflictions...................am I missing something here? Perhaps they are considerably affected?

 

Knockdown sucked anyway, int is a dump stat for fighters so it's duration made it. Not worth using.

 

Dude, knockdown is functionally equivalent to stun in PoE. 

"Stunned" (as in "unable to act") is pretty much the second best condition you can inflict on your opponent, right after "dead".

And not just in PoE, but in pretty much each and every game featuring tactical battles out there.

Nope, it doesn't suck, far from it.

Sure, if you're dumping int it's not as effective. The obvious answer is "don't dump intellect, it affects a bunch of fighter buffs and abilities ( Constant recovery, disciplined barrage, vigorous defense, unbroken, unbending, clear out just to name a few )".

Edited by Njall

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I'd actually agree Knockdown was pretty bad. Not that prone is a bad status or anything, but there is just tons of crap in every fight on PotD past Act 2. Two single target knock downs a fights barely registered value on any fight, so I wouldn't even notice if was gone. Knockdown's main benefit was it's competitor is also pretty underwhelming.

 

Not that Fighter's didn't take a bit of a hit, and not even that's its for a different reason than prone immunity. Fighters, like really any class, could toss around nice prone on crit with weapons, but that plans taken a bit of hit against a decent number of mobs. It was another reason knockdown was a bit underwhelming, actually; knockdown would often be doing something my weapon was doing on it's own, anyways.

 

The stun on crit still seems fine enough, I've only noticed Spores and Lurkers immune to stun.

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