Disappointed with 2.0 Respec

[View619]

You want to re-spec companions? Use the console to cheat new stats in, the tools are already there.

 

The devs have made their decision, either deal with it or move on. And no, you couldn't respec companions in the IE games either.

Edited August 30, 2015 by View619

[Rosbjerg]

I'm not sure I understand the problem with re speccing companions, you do realize that if the OP was able to re spec companions and chose to do so that those companions wouldn't suddenly change in your game as well right? Those changes effectively take place in a Vacuum inside that one players game and no where else, and just because the option is there doesn't mean YOU have to use it.....

Thats my point, shouldnt they change? From a mechanic point of view? How can a 3 resovle Durance believe what he does? How can an 18 int Eder's dialouge work.. It messes with the cosistency of the game's mechanics expressed to the player.

 

Also there are mods available right now, that YOU can use.. Which offers what you want.

 

 

 

So why is this argument "stronger" than prefering the artistic integrity of the developers original idea of the character is preserved?

 

I've heard that “artistic integrity” worked so well for Mass Effect 3 :} One man's “artistic integrity” is another man's pain in the ass.

Whether it works or not is actually, in so far as what we are discussing, irrelevant. But yeah in ME3 they should've stuck to their original ieea, instead of what they thought would be more epic.

 

But to equally rethoric, did all the infinity games fail as well?

[tinysalamander]

Speaking of consistency in a game where companions' stats already changed a few times, that's some bold line you've got here, Rosbjerg

 

I've never played Infinity games.

[Vorhees]

 

I'm not sure I understand the problem with re speccing companions, you do realize that if the OP was able to re spec companions and chose to do so that those companions wouldn't suddenly change in your game as well right? Those changes effectively take place in a Vacuum inside that one players game and no where else, and just because the option is there doesn't mean YOU have to use it.....

Thats my point, shouldnt they change? From a mechanic point of view? How can a 3 resovle Durance believe what he does? How can an 18 int Eder's dialouge work.. It messes with the cosistency of the game's mechanics expressed to the player.

 

Also there are mods available right now, that YOU can use.. Which offers what you want

Basically the way I see it is that player choice is never a bad thing, If the option to re spec the preset companions was in the game and I went ahead and used that option then one of two things would happen depending on my own preferences.

 

I would either come to the conclusion that I agree with people such as yourself that the new stat allocation makes no sense for the character and reload or maybe just use the re spec option again to put it back to defaults if I've progressed too far that I don't want to reload.

 

Or I would do as I suspect the OP would do, which is just treat the stat allocations as having no bearing on the characters personality or whatever, and while that might be really abhorrent to some it ultimately only affects that one players game and no one elses.

 

I'm actually not too bothered about the re spec option anyway, believe it or not I'm on the side of "3 resolve for Durance or 18 int for Eder makes no sense whatsoever", I just jumped on this debate because I can't understand the logic of the people arguing against the OP about a feature that wouldn't even have to have any impact on them whatsoever if it was in the game.

 

The suggestions for downloading a mod or using console commands to achieve the same affect is valid I guess, but if that's the stance to be taken then why did they even bother to add re spec into the game at all? I mean, just go download the mod and do it that way right?

[Rosbjerg]

That would be my prefered stance actually, but I realize that is somewhat extreme.. Imo, It cheapens our experience when we are allowed to customize everything and its a mindset Ive seen cause great sacrifices to story and lore for player convinience - something the player base often laments afterwards ironically.. Like Morrowind to Oblivion.

[Vorhees]

I actually agree with the sentiment there to be honest, always amuses me to see people requesting this feature or that feature and stating it would be easy to implement just a simple toggle in the options when in reality its a lot more hassle than they could ever imagine and can basically lead to feature creep which any developer is quite right to avoid.

In the context here where the re spec option already got introduced to the game for the PC and all hirelings though (regardless of whether we agree with it or not) I don't think the OP is being entirely unreasonable..... perhaps resources would be better spent elsewhere but seeing as they already went ahead and did the legwork why not extend it out to all companions?

 

But yeah in general the overall sentiment is easy to sympathize with.

[Mygaffer]

 

In game companions certainly should be available to have their stats respecced. The arguments against it are very weak. Someone says something about not changing the characters that Obsidian designed, well the characters will still be the characters. The lines will be written the same, their voice actors the same, their model the same. The specs are not show in dialogue. The specs are mechanics, not character, and a part of the game systems that players should be able to change to give them more options to decide how to play the game.

 

Also, the idea that we shouldn't be "pitching a fit" or whatever said is again nonsense. This is the official forum, you really expect people not give feedback?

 

While I like the game overall l hope no one is pretending there are not some glaring design faults.

 

Well in that case I guess the specs of your main character are not really part of the character either so maybe we don't need the respec at all - 

 

I get you are trying to be sarcastic but really it comes down to player choice and game design. I get that these are Obsidian's characters and the only control the player has over them is how we interpret them. I make the case that the specs, i.e. strength, perception, dexterity, etc., do not heavily influence the player's experience of those characters. I can speak of my personal experience, in that I don't sit and look at Durance's stats and say "Oh look, he has a might of 14, he must be pretty strong". His high resolve does seem to reflect his strong personality, but that 19 resolve never factored into my experience of Durance.

 

On the flip side if the game wants to emphasis player choice, especially when interacting with one of the core mechanics, i.e. combat, allowing a respec of your party seems like the correct design choice. This allows me more options as a player and more builds to experiment with. Obsidian's designers seem to want players have that choice, as you can recruit followers and build them however you want to. By allowing that with recruited followers and not with the story followers they've now made it so that we have to give up something whichever way we play. If you choose to use the story companions we give up the ability to customize our party builds. If we recruit our followers we can customize our party but we give up on all the writing, the story, the interjections, reactions, and quests of the story companions. 

 

I am sure you will remember there was a time when you couldn't even pick your story followers skills up until the level you met them. That was, in my opinion, a sub-optimal design decision. They changed that to give the players more control over the character builds and their party. Allowing the respec is something they could also reconsider, as a player and a fan I am merely making the case for a change I would enjoy.

Edited August 31, 2015 by Mygaffer

[Fëanor]

PSA: the respec command with the IEMod now allows you to respec attributes as well.

[Oralaina]

That would be my prefered stance actually, but I realize that is somewhat extreme.. Imo, It cheapens our experience when we are allowed to customize everything and its a mindset Ive seen cause great sacrifices to story and lore for player convinience - something the player base often laments afterwards ironically.. Like Morrowind to Oblivion.

 

You're joking?  Oblivion was magnitudes better in so many ways than Morrowind, not all of them graphically.

[Rosbjerg]

I was saying many players lamented the changes they demanded. Not X was inherently better than Y.

 

That said, I personally think the Oblivion and Fallout 3'ification of games is one of the worst things to happen to the Rpg genre (not gaming in general mind you) in the last decade. But thats another discussion.

[Rosveen]

 

 

That would be my prefered stance actually, but I realize that is somewhat extreme.. Imo, It cheapens our experience when we are allowed to customize everything and its a mindset Ive seen cause great sacrifices to story and lore for player convinience - something the player base often laments afterwards ironically.. Like Morrowind to Oblivion.

You're joking? Oblivion was magnitudes better in so many ways than Morrowind, not all of them graphically.

It was also magnitudes worse in so many ways, not all of them aesthetical.

[Killyox]

I just make them work. All of them, no matter how bad companion stats are. It's harder on POTD that way but then characters are more believable to me and beating a game + WM on POTD is just a nice bonus when not min-maxing.

Edited September 4, 2015 by Killyox

[wanderon]

I just make them work. All of them, no matter how bad companion stats are. It's harder on POTD that way but then characters are more believable to me and beating a game + WM on POTD is just a nice bonus when not min-maxing.

 

Or even on Normal or Hard working with characters that have middle of the road stats vs min/max stats just feels better/more fun to me - nothing below 8 and rarely anything above 16 or so - just decent balanced stats.

[FlintlockJazz]

While I am more accepting of respeccing than I was early on (the IE games got away with it because in 2nd ed D&D there wasn't much choice to begin with, Pillars has a lot of character choice and a system that most players have very little experience comparative to ones like D&D), I'm still not enamoured with how freely available it is and the amount you can respect.  Not being able to respect the attributes of the companions is acceptable to me and I find being able to completely respect my own a bit offputting, I like the idea that attributes help define your character and liked that the stat system they used wasn't like Diablo with constantly inflating stats but rather stats that felt like they meant something in real terms and that characters could react to them, so changing them seems too much. 

 

I do see the need to let players change attributes, as they changed how some of the attributes worked so it would have messed up some people's builds etc, and if I was running a tabletop RPG I would be willing to let my players change things about their characters if they found it was just not working or edition changes or some other reason I found valid.  I can see that allowing the 'player approaching GM and asking if they can change a couple of things' is needed in cRPGs and that it's hard if not possible to do it right, so I won't throw baby out with bathwater, I'm just saying that I find being able to revamp something I consider fundamental to the character to be rather disconcerting and think that maybe there should have been more restrictions/cost on the respeccing.  YMMV. 

[Matt516]

 

That would be my prefered stance actually, but I realize that is somewhat extreme.. Imo, It cheapens our experience when we are allowed to customize everything and its a mindset Ive seen cause great sacrifices to story and lore for player convinience - something the player base often laments afterwards ironically.. Like Morrowind to Oblivion.

 

You're joking?  Oblivion was magnitudes better in so many ways than Morrowind, not all of them graphically.

 

 

Heresy!

 

Really, though. Oblivion was a great game, but it greatly changed a number of game mechanics that had until that point been staples of TES franchise. They're both good games, but Morrowind is the far, far superior "Elder Scrolls" game - at least for those of us who grew up with Daggerfall.

[lameover]

-Aloth, we need to talk.

-Hm?

-We need to increase your might reducing Resolve and Perception a little.

-Huh?

-Yep. We're going to Sanitarium, maybe animansers can "fix" you.

-(Iselmyr appears) Frak you! I'm going home. (going out whistling).

[Oralaina]

 

 

That would be my prefered stance actually, but I realize that is somewhat extreme.. Imo, It cheapens our experience when we are allowed to customize everything and its a mindset Ive seen cause great sacrifices to story and lore for player convinience - something the player base often laments afterwards ironically.. Like Morrowind to Oblivion.

 

You're joking?  Oblivion was magnitudes better in so many ways than Morrowind, not all of them graphically.

 

 

Heresy!

 

Really, though. Oblivion was a great game, but it greatly changed a number of game mechanics that had until that point been staples of TES franchise. They're both good games, but Morrowind is the far, far superior "Elder Scrolls" game - at least for those of us who grew up with Daggerfall.

 

 

Well, that's true.  But I for one DID "grow up with" TES games beginning with Arena.  And by the time Oblivion came along, it was a breath of fresh air to me.  It's a given though that gaming preferences are generally very specific to each person.

Edited September 5, 2015 by Oralaina

[tinysalamander]

-Aloth, we need to talk.

-Hm?

-We need to increase your might reducing Resolve and Perception a little.

-Huh?

-Yep. We're going to Sanitarium, maybe animansers can "fix" you.

-(Iselmyr appears) Frak you! I'm going home. (going out whistling).

 

Aloth, you are going to do this mediation thing we just learned from that fishy monk. It's gonna totally change your perception of your capabilities. Yes, it's totally harmless.

[svartelric]

I feel that those NPCs should be static in their stats and class, after all is like asking a GM to change a character he made up because you don't like it - getting a mod seems the solution for your problem, as for me I'm happy to be able to choose between flat NPCs I can roll and NPC crafted to have a story and quest attached to them. I really don't see a reason for your disappointment...

[Killyox]

 

 

That would be my prefered stance actually, but I realize that is somewhat extreme.. Imo, It cheapens our experience when we are allowed to customize everything and its a mindset Ive seen cause great sacrifices to story and lore for player convinience - something the player base often laments afterwards ironically.. Like Morrowind to Oblivion.

 

You're joking?  Oblivion was magnitudes better in so many ways than Morrowind, not all of them graphically.

 

 

Heresy!

 

Really, though. Oblivion was a great game, but it greatly changed a number of game mechanics that had until that point been staples of TES franchise. They're both good games, but Morrowind is the far, far superior "Elder Scrolls" game - at least for those of us who grew up with Daggerfall.

 

Pre-oblivion TES games had extremely counterintuitive systems.

[jintegrity]

Going to necro' this thread, and I don't really care if that offends you. There's a thread relevant to why I'm here, and I'm going to use it.

That being said, I cannot understand why so many people were so dismissive, and others openly belligerent, to the OP. They spent their money, same as you did, for the game. They have the right to voice an opinion. If you disagree with them, that's cool, but why in the world would you say, "No, I don't want more content for this game I paid for."? Keep it to yourself, or remember, as others have stated, you can opt not to use the feature. Asking them to download third-party software or files to fix something they perceive as a problem is not a valid response as they're addressing the product he paid for.

A lot of you quote D&D as your examples, stating how it'd be unreasonable to ask a person to change their character's stats to suit you. However, in D&D, you were allowed to ask, and it was entirely possible someone might be willing to do so. I got someone who wants to play a small sized cavalier, and wants my druid to act as their mount? That might be hilarious, and I'd totally be interested in having the option to do that, rather than being told by the game that I'm not allowed. Such restrictions would go against the spirit of the game in the first place. 

Others of you reference the Infinity Engine games, but those games also featured certain characters with stats and attributes that were superior to what the MC could have, or exclusive to themselves (Dorn's Half-orc Blackguard, Xan's Moonblade, Minsc's Berserk/WIS score, etc) and made them interesting alternatives to playing a multiplayer game solo just to build an optimized party. Other than Devil and Pallegina having exclusive races (which I'd actually like to have the option to play, mind), this game lacks that.

I paid for the game, and I shouldn't have to suffer a lack of features just because some people don't want them in. I don't see myself ever playing a Nature Godlike, but that doesn't mean I'd want it to be removed, or would have been against its inclusion. That's blatantly self-centered.

I'm glad I got the game for the holidays. It has lived up to all the hype it has received, and managed to exceed expectations for me. Just met the Grieving Mother today, and I really want her to live up to her potential as a Cipher, as I found her so intriguing that I'm considering a two-man party run with her as the #2. I haven't even bothered to get Pallegina yet because of the way the Paladin (and Cleric) abilities are completely neutered for NPC's (though that's a separate issue), and that her stats don't help. I can't express how disappointing that is, as Paladins are traditionally my favorite class, and the portrait art for her is absolutely stunning.

I don't intend to download third-party software just to use a feature already in the game, and I'll live if it isn't implemented, but while artistic integrity is something I respect, denying people features just because you wouldn't use them yourself is asinine, self-centered, and does nothing to improve the game.

[Doppelschwert]

I haven't even bothered to get Pallegina yet because of the way the Paladin (and Cleric) abilities are completely neutered for NPC's (though that's a separate issue), and that her stats don't help. I can't express how disappointing that is, as Paladins are traditionally my favorite class, and the portrait art for her is absolutely stunning.

 

I think that's a bit of hyperbole, given that it affects exactly one ability per class, but rest assured that the patch in january adresses the faith and conviction bonuses for paladin companions by setting them to a fixed (bigger than the minimum, yet smaller than the maximum) amount.

 

 

As for the rest of your post:

The only way to respect artistic integrity and have your cake and eat it too is to use mods - that's what they are there for, after all.

If you don't want to download third party software, that's ok, but then either start modding yourself or don't complain about it. The premise that optional content can only add to the game because you can ignore it is heavily debated on this board and not a universal truth, and that's why people are arguing against it. Even introducing the respec itself was heavily debated.

 

Respecing introduces quite some ways to exploit the game, so it's only natural that some people vote against it. It's not only because they don't want to use it, it's because it would be strictly better to use it all the time when it is available and thus becomes mandatory for optimal play (if you're that adamant about min-maxing anway) which certainly may distract from the enjoyment of the game.

 

Imho, asking for the game to be changed for personal enjoyment of the game is always self centered, whether it's introducing something or denying something. And that's completely fine, as long as you don't pretend to have the moral highground on things.

 

 

If obsidian would've wanted respec for companion attributes, they would've included it. Mods are an easy solution for everyone to get what they want, so everyone can have their cake and eat it, too. Asking for mods to become official is redundant because it takes additional dev time while adding nothing to the options of the players.

Edited December 28, 2015 by Doppelschwert

[evilcat]

Full respec would be more trouble for programers, since that would require goin back to character creation screen including class pick, voice, avatar, look, origin.

They probably can grey some of it for respec, but that is more work. Work to be done elsewhere.

 

Companions just need to be half decent in what they do. And most of them are. Maybe Devil of Caroc have a very odd stat distribution (that Resolve) and gimped armor (but that could be fixed on its own).

 

The other option (even better) is to make companion quests grant "something" so they feel more special. And doing companion quests ware more rewarding.

[DreamWayfarer]

Full respec would be more trouble for programers, since that would require goin back to character creation screen including class pick, voice, avatar, look, origin.

They probably can grey some of it for respec, but that is more work. Work to be done elsewhere.

 

Companions just need to be half decent in what they do. And most of them are. Maybe Devil of Caroc have a very odd stat distribution (that Resolve) and gimped armor (but that could be fixed on its own).

 

The other option (even better) is to make companion quests grant "something" so they feel more special. And doing companion quests ware more rewarding.

 

Yes, it would be very interesting if companions had unique passives related to their personal stories, just like Pallegina's order will have specific talents in the next patch. I can even imagine some passives:

 

 

 

Aloth: Buried instincts:

Aloth gains 10% more action speed when engaged by at least two foes.

 

Éder: Dawnstars burning

Éder gains 3 more Constitution and Resolve when at less than 30% endurance.

 

Durance: Twelve shadows they did cast

Durance's spells have 5 fire DR penetration.

[HawkSoft]

I like the idea of unique abilities for the companions but would prefer the development time to be spent on extending their personal quests or giving them each a second stage quest.