1.06 the Paladin Patch

[Crucis]

However, racials STACK with gear and spells, whereas gear doesn't stack with gear, spells don't stack with spells, and some things are hard enough to find, much less stack.

 

Like accuracy.  Distant advantage isn't a game changer, but it doesn't need to be to be better than most of the racials for any caster.

 

For what it's worth, I think that attribute bonuses on weapons do stack with attribute bonuses on all other items.  But non-weapon item attribute bonuses do not stack with each other.

[Torm51]

Will the patch work retroactively on my Paladin saves?

Good question

[Evange]

Will the patch work retroactively on my Paladin saves?

Yes it will.

[Judicator]

When is the patch expected to be released? It's time I finally played a pally.

[Dinky Dino]

Wait is flames of devotion just going to boost the paladin hitting with it by 20 accuracy or is it boosting the entire party by 20 accuracy except the paladin?

Edited June 1, 2015 by Dinky Dino

[Evange]

Wait is flames of devotion just going to boost the paladin hitting with it by 20 accuracy or is it boosting the entire party by 20 accuracy except the paladin?

Just for the skill.

[Zwiebelchen]

 

I think the hit/graze conversion effects are a good way to give the auras some kind of unique bonus to make them useful when you have a Priest without opening the can of worms of letting them stack with anything.

 

 

What can of worms are we talking here exactly? 6 Accuracy is not a game-changer. It's nice to have, nothing more. It's basicly just a party-wide weapon focus.

And 3 DR is also nothing, considering you can only select either the accuracy bonus or the DR bonus, not both.

 

Currently, Paladins are the only class that are completely devaluated by the presence of another. In this case, priests. If you have a priest (especially once hitting level 9), your Paladin practically becomes dead weight.

[Kaigen42]

What can of worms are we talking here exactly? 6 Accuracy is not a game-changer. It's nice to have, nothing more. It's basicly just a party-wide weapon focus.

And 3 DR is also nothing, considering you can only select either the accuracy bonus or the DR bonus, not both.

 

Currently, Paladins are the only class that are completely devaluated by the presence of another. In this case, priests. If you have a priest (especially once hitting level 9), your Paladin practically becomes dead weight.

Completely devalued. By having one of their abilities being overwritten by a resource-limited active ability. Sure.

 

As for the "can of worms," I see two. The first is the task of coding your suggested exception where the Paladin's auras (and not other modals) stack specifically with the Priest's spells (and not other active abilities). I don't imagine that's a trivial task. The second is the potentially unbalancing affect of allowing accuracy (or DR) buffs to accumulate without limit, especially with an expansion on the way where they may be considering giving the Paladin access to more powerful auras/upgrades for existing auras, along with more powerful accuracy buffs. The Darcozzi Paladin already has the questionable ability to stack +20 Accuracy on one character by double-casting Inspiring Liberation. Do we really want to see what happens to game balance when a Battlemage is stacking upwards of 90-100 extra accuracy on top of level bonuses and talents?

[Zwiebelchen]

 

What can of worms are we talking here exactly? 6 Accuracy is not a game-changer. It's nice to have, nothing more. It's basicly just a party-wide weapon focus.

And 3 DR is also nothing, considering you can only select either the accuracy bonus or the DR bonus, not both.

 

Currently, Paladins are the only class that are completely devaluated by the presence of another. In this case, priests. If you have a priest (especially once hitting level 9), your Paladin practically becomes dead weight.

 

1. Completely devalued. By having one of their abilities being overwritten by a resource-limited active ability. Sure.

 

2. As for the "can of worms," I see two. The first is the task of coding your suggested exception where the Paladin's auras (and not other modals) stack specifically with the Priest's spells (and not other active abilities). I don't imagine that's a trivial task. The second is the potentially unbalancing affect of allowing accuracy (or DR) buffs to accumulate without limit, especially with an expansion on the way where they may be considering giving the Paladin access to more powerful auras/upgrades for existing auras, along with more powerful accuracy buffs. The Darcozzi Paladin already has the questionable ability to stack +20 Accuracy on one character by double-casting Inspiring Liberation. Do we really want to see what happens to game balance when a Battlemage is stacking upwards of 90-100 extra accuracy on top of level bonuses and talents?

 

 

1. First level priest buffs pretty much become free cast once you hit level 9, as the first level becomes per-encounter at this point.

Also, they are not limited to a small AoE around the Paladin. They linger on all characters until the end of duration, not until outranging a certain unit. Also, they don't instantly vanish when the priest dies. I'd say the priest buffs are superior in that regard.

 

2. I'm not saying that all accuracy or DR bonuses should stack. That would be completely insane. But we are more or less talking a class specific talent here. And talents, by default, stack with everything. The Fighter's Defender ability, for example, does stack with deflection bonuses from priest abilities just fine. The paladin auras are not the rule, they are the exception here. There is nothing to code here; they just need to move the paladin aura bonus into a different bonus pool, just like food stacks with other bonuses.

Also, Auras are pretty much the only reason why you would ever take a Paladin in the first place. There's nothing a Paladin can do that a fighter of the same level couldn't do better. If a 9th level priest pretty much removes the advantage of auras, why even waste talent points in them?

 

And even a +20 accuracy buff wouldn't even be gamebreaking. Priests have a 4th level spell that offsets PC and enemy accuracy by a whopping 40 (-20 accuracy for enemies, +20 accuracy for friendlies) in a pretty large AoE. Yet this doesn't break the game.

And besides, I never said that other buffs of the Paladin should stack. I only think that Auras currently are useless.

 

Also, if we don't want minor accuracy buffs to stack, why does the +5 accuracy bonus of Inspiring Radiance stack with other accuracy bonuses? That's just another slap in the face for everyone who has both a paladin and a priest in the group.

Edited June 1, 2015 by Zwiebelchen

[Kaigen42]

1. First level priest buffs pretty much become free cast once you hit level 9, as the first level becomes per-encounter at this point.

Also, they are not limited to a small AoE around the Paladin. They linger on all characters until the end of duration, not until outranging a certain unit. Also, they don't instantly vanish when the priest dies. I'd say the priest buffs are superior in that regard.

 

2. I'm not saying that all accuracy or DR bonuses should stack. That would be completely insane. But we are more or less talking a class specific talent here. And talents, by default, stack with everything. The Fighter's Defender ability, for example, does stack with deflection bonuses from priest abilities just fine. The paladin auras are not the rule, they are the exception here. There is nothing to code here; they just need to move the paladin aura bonus into a different bonus pool, just like food stacks with other bonuses.

Also, Auras are pretty much the only reason why you would ever take a Paladin in the first place. There's nothing a Paladin can do that a fighter of the same level couldn't do better. If a 9th level priest pretty much removes the advantage of auras, why even waste talent points in them?

 

And even a +20 accuracy buff wouldn't even be gamebreaking. Priests have a 4th level spell that offsets PC and enemy accuracy by a whopping 40 (-20 accuracy for enemies, +20 accuracy for friendlies) in a pretty large AoE. Yet this doesn't break the game.

And besides, I never said that other buffs of the Paladin should stack. I only think that Auras currently are useless.

1. Free in terms of per-rest resources, perhaps, but not in terms of time. If you want to have your Priest queue up to cast Armor of Faith and Bless at the beginning of every fight, go ahead. Mine has better things to do.

 

2. The Fighter's Defender ability doesn't give a deflection bonus, the Wary Defender talent gives a deflection bonus. In contrast, the Fighter's Guardian Stance doesn't stack with Priest buffs (It wouldn't be a good ability even if it did, but that's neither here nor there). Cautious Attack will not stack with active deflection buffs either. Defender is the outlier here, not the Paladin's auras. Besides, with the new patch, Paladin auras now provide bonuses that you can't get from other active abilities and so will stack with anything anyway. So huzzah, Paladins have a purpose again. Thank goodness.

 

It's not the individual accuracy bonus that's the problem; it's the cumulative effect of extra stacking bonuses, especially when combined with new abilities that might be developed for the expansion, which might not take into account that the developers made an extra-special exception for Paladins so people would stop complaining.

[heldred]

This is my third run through the game and each time I've had a paladin in my party (main and hired party members).  I enjoyed the class, but it is obviously underpowered (Paladin wouldn't be my first pick to solo or if I needed to min/max a party).  My primary recommendations for 1.06 paladin changes:

 

1) Make Lay on Hands healing scale with level and gain more uses (1 use for 1st-4th level, 2 uses 5th-9th, 3 uses 10th+) - Optional ghetto fix: just scale the healing by level

 

2) Make the Black Path an aura similar to Barbarian's Sickening Presence (let the Bleak Walker live up to its name and fill the world with dread) - Optional ghetto fix: increase the radius and duration of existing power.

 

3) Bond of Duty is fairly lame and should be reworked to something much more useful... like target can't die, regardless of the amount of damage taken, while Bond of Duty is active... like it was "their duty until death."  I can't remember a battle when I said, "thank goodness for Bond of Duty..."  Optional ghetto fix: make it reflect all hostile status attacks (charm, confuse, etc.) while active.

 

From a developer standpoint, adjusting numbers is always an easier fix than reworking a skill (e.g., changing an attack from death triggered to an aura), but I think it is a worthy investment to balance the classes/subclasses.  Overall, Paladin doesn't have a godlike power that some classes possess, but maybe the expansion will address that issue.

 

Just a wish list... nothing to lose sleep over.  

 

 

 

 

[Zwiebelchen]

Yeah, bond of duty is another story. Completely outclassed by the level 2 priest spell Suppress Affliction, which does the same, but in a big AoE.

 

The only upside of bond of duty is that it is per-encounter. But it's not like you fight mages and druids every single battle so that hardly matters.

Edited June 2, 2015 by Zwiebelchen

[Gorionsson]

 

 

I think the hit/graze conversion effects are a good way to give the auras some kind of unique bonus to make them useful when you have a Priest without opening the can of worms of letting them stack with anything.

 

 

What can of worms are we talking here exactly? 6 Accuracy is not a game-changer. It's nice to have, nothing more. It's basicly just a party-wide weapon focus.

And 3 DR is also nothing, considering you can only select either the accuracy bonus or the DR bonus, not both.

 

Currently, Paladins are the only class that are completely devaluated by the presence of another. In this case, priests. If you have a priest (especially once hitting level 9), your Paladin practically becomes dead weight.

 

 

Just one question: Isn't this always the case with paladins and priests?

 

It's not like the Priest class is mandatory in a party environment in this game. 

What changes would you suggest to paladin to prevent this? After all, the buff/heal part of the paladin is only half of the class' usefulness imo.

Other classes have similar overlapping/ non-stacking abilties, also.

 

Side note: Paladin auras offer more "passive play". some people like that.

[Raven Darkholme]

 

 

 

I think the hit/graze conversion effects are a good way to give the auras some kind of unique bonus to make them useful when you have a Priest without opening the can of worms of letting them stack with anything.

 

 

What can of worms are we talking here exactly? 6 Accuracy is not a game-changer. It's nice to have, nothing more. It's basicly just a party-wide weapon focus.

And 3 DR is also nothing, considering you can only select either the accuracy bonus or the DR bonus, not both.

 

Currently, Paladins are the only class that are completely devaluated by the presence of another. In this case, priests. If you have a priest (especially once hitting level 9), your Paladin practically becomes dead weight.

 

 

Just one question: Isn't this always the case with paladins and priests?

 

It's not like the Priest class is mandatory in a party environment in this game. 

What changes would you suggest to paladin to prevent this? After all, the buff/heal part of the paladin is only half of the class' usefulness imo.

Other classes have similar overlapping/ non-stacking abilties, also.

 

Side note: Paladin auras offer more "passive play". some people like that.

 

As to the passive play, it is very much rooted in the easy difficulty of PoE PotD. Why would I throw around actives all days, rest every few encounters etc. if I can just steamroll the game with a party which doesn't have a priest or mage. You could propably go so far and have a party full off one button characters.

[Gorionsson]

 

 

 

 

I think the hit/graze conversion effects are a good way to give the auras some kind of unique bonus to make them useful when you have a Priest without opening the can of worms of letting them stack with anything.

 

 

What can of worms are we talking here exactly? 6 Accuracy is not a game-changer. It's nice to have, nothing more. It's basicly just a party-wide weapon focus.

And 3 DR is also nothing, considering you can only select either the accuracy bonus or the DR bonus, not both.

 

Currently, Paladins are the only class that are completely devaluated by the presence of another. In this case, priests. If you have a priest (especially once hitting level 9), your Paladin practically becomes dead weight.

 

 

Just one question: Isn't this always the case with paladins and priests?

 

It's not like the Priest class is mandatory in a party environment in this game. 

What changes would you suggest to paladin to prevent this? After all, the buff/heal part of the paladin is only half of the class' usefulness imo.

Other classes have similar overlapping/ non-stacking abilties, also.

 

Side note: Paladin auras offer more "passive play". some people like that.

 

As to the passive play, it is very much rooted in the easy difficulty of PoE PotD. Why would I throw around actives all days, rest every few encounters etc. if I can just steamroll the game with a party which doesn't have a priest or mage. You could propably go so far and have a party full off one button characters.

 

Very true.

[Zwiebelchen]

Just one question: Isn't this always the case with paladins and priests?

 

It's not like the Priest class is mandatory in a party environment in this game. 

What changes would you suggest to paladin to prevent this? After all, the buff/heal part of the paladin is only half of the class' usefulness imo.

Other classes have similar overlapping/ non-stacking abilties, also.

 

Side note: Paladin auras offer more "passive play". some people like that.

 

 

No other class in this game is derailed as much by the presence of another as the Paladin.

Chanter abilities, for example, stack with most of the priest buffs. And there isn't even that much of a difference between offensive and defensive potential between Chanter and Paladin, if we disregard Faith and Conviction, which, mind you, only applies to the PC.

[Gorionsson]

 

Just one question: Isn't this always the case with paladins and priests?

 

It's not like the Priest class is mandatory in a party environment in this game. 

What changes would you suggest to paladin to prevent this? After all, the buff/heal part of the paladin is only half of the class' usefulness imo.

Other classes have similar overlapping/ non-stacking abilties, also.

 

Side note: Paladin auras offer more "passive play". some people like that.

 

 

No other class in this game is derailed as much by the presence of another as the Paladin.

Chanter abilities, for example, stack with most of the priest buffs. And there isn't even that much of a difference between offensive and defensive potential between Chanter and Paladin, if we disregard Faith and Conviction, which, mind you, only applies to the PC.

 

Agree on the chanter and paladin, actually. Chanter is a strange class, in that it seems it should be more of a caster class, and less sturdy than it is. Also totally redundant on normal/hard.

 

Still I don't think the priest and the paladin being somewhat mutually exclusive, is big problem. At least not with Poe being as easy as it is. (Unfortunately a fundamental problem, that's not going to change. Maybe for poe2).

 

It's difficult to say what the developers intended. Was the paladin seen as an alternative to the priest in party play? Who knows.

I do know that a party with paladin + druid pretty much covers my buffing/healing needs, at least in this game. 

 

Paladin auras stacking with priest buffs could be something for the expansion/poe2, I agree. Hopefully those campaigns will a lot harder, with much better encounter design.

For the chanter/priest to be really useful, we need longer fights. It's as simple as that, really.

[Certus]

What about righteous soul for paladin,as defensive potential. Automatic defence against some of the hardest to counter afflictions in game. When paladin snaps out 2,3 or 4 times quicker from aoe de-buff can throw around some ring of unshackling charges and liberating exhortations. Know it doesn't counter everything but chanter and precious priest spells don't really have an answer when stun locked either.

 

How exactly do you balance for buff overkill anyhow? When everyone stacks 3 buffs onto one character? Does everyone that doesn't buff for the first ten seconds of fight get steamrolled because the game difficulty has been balanced for the support classes? For tough fights I can understand a bit of buffing and luck goes a long way, but I mean seriously, do people really enjoy having one or three characters rubbing their rosary beads at the beginning of each fight to make sure it goes well. Most of the tactical aspect of the game, which I enjoy immensely btw, goes basically 1) kill the guy in the dress. 2) stun and dog pile the big tough one 3) burn the rest. 1) is hopefully over by the time a few Hail Marys have had a chance to activate. 3) is done before the guy singing has actually achieved anything at all.

 

I like paladins, weaker constant auras are great, they shouldn't stack. I shouldn't need a priest if I don't need to, pala and some choice equipment should be ok.

[Torm51]

I will ask again before I download it cause I am getting kind of impatient for the patch...this is my favorite class and its going to make some good improvements/quality of life changes...how buggy is the patch in its beta state? I am on my first play through ever and just got to Act 3 wouldn't want to ruin my game lol! Is it safe to play it in its Beta state?

[Kaigen42]

If you want to be safe, I wouldn't play a beta patch with an ongoing game, as there's a possibility that your saved game might get corrupted by an unforeseen problem. I'd either wait for the official patch or start a new playthrough for the beta.

[Torm51]

Cool bud thanks!

[Tennisgolfboll]

I completed a full game on 1.06 earlier beta (build before latest) and it was more bugged but everything was fine.

 

This version is better.

I recommend playing it right now.

[Raven Darkholme]

What about righteous soul for paladin,as defensive potential. Automatic defence against some of the hardest to counter afflictions in game. When paladin snaps out 2,3 or 4 times quicker from aoe de-buff can throw around some ring of unshackling charges and liberating exhortations. Know it doesn't counter everything but chanter and precious priest spells don't really have an answer when stun locked either.

 

How exactly do you balance for buff overkill anyhow? When everyone stacks 3 buffs onto one character? Does everyone that doesn't buff for the first ten seconds of fight get steamrolled because the game difficulty has been balanced for the support classes? For tough fights I can understand a bit of buffing and luck goes a long way, but I mean seriously, do people really enjoy having one or three characters rubbing their rosary beads at the beginning of each fight to make sure it goes well. Most of the tactical aspect of the game, which I enjoy immensely btw, goes basically 1) kill the guy in the dress. 2) stun and dog pile the big tough one 3) burn the rest. 1) is hopefully over by the time a few Hail Marys have had a chance to activate. 3) is done before the guy singing has actually achieved anything at all.

 

I like paladins, weaker constant auras are great, they shouldn't stack. I shouldn't need a priest if I don't need to, pala and some choice equipment should be ok.

Righteous soul outright destroys fear auras of drakes and dragons. If you solo it's also super useful against charm and such.

[Drath]

Not sure how I feel about Reinforcing Exhortation being +25 Deflection instead of +15. +25 is a ton of defence for a considerable time frame. Feels a little overpowered to be honest.

Lay on Hands from once to twice per encounter with increased base healing per tick, would make a Ranger's Animal Companion capable of solo tanking most encounters provided you have a small enough chokepoint. The idea is to have a Paladin with some support capabilities, not be better at per encounter healing compared to the Priest. The Paladin is already a decent tank with good initial burst from Flames of Devotion so IMHO this buff for Lay on Hands feels excessive.

Would probably also tone down the Flames of Devotion Accuracy bonus to +10.

The other stuff like adding a bit of bonus Graze to Hit to Zealous Focus, having all Exhortations recover immediately and aura size modifications are all fair tweaks.

I'd like to see enemies pursuing the party as a group and the "walking back slowly" part once they are outdistanced really needs to go. As it is, the game is not terribly hard (as long the horrible pathfinding doesn't do a number on you). I don't think we need more class buffs to trivialize things further.

[Evange]

1.06 patch is live!