Too much whining about gameplay?

[Rosveen]

 

 

Books are not an interactive medium. Games are and "fun" is supposed to be their primary feature. Before all else, they must be fun to play.

 

I'm sorry but that's nonsense.

 

Books (and movies) are not mechanically interactive as a videogame (in the sense that you don't use them by manipulating peripherals, although we could discuse if the physical volume is in itself a peripheral and the book is just the message contained on it, and in that regard the way the physical volume is made could be important), but they are, let's say,  cognitively interactive. Meaning that your mind interacts with the things you're perceiving, emotionally and intellectualy; and one of the things that interaction can trigger in your mind is fun; because I think we all will agree that fun is something that's in your mind.

 

So based on that, the process of fun being triggered in the consumer's mind obviously depends on an interaction between the product and the mind, and that's valid for games, books and movies. And again, you only can hope fun to be triggered in your brain, but your money only gives you access to the potentially triggering product, not assures the triggering itself.

 

Agreed. Enjoyment isn't guaranteed, that's why you can't return your Steam game and ask for a refund because "it just wasn't fun." But can you talk about why it wasn't fun? Of course, and this goes for any medium. There are plenty of scathing user reviews of books and movies, you just won't find them on the publisher's website because they don't have anywhere to post them. Go to fan forums, though, and it's a whole different story. Movie adaptations are the funniest thing, so many get the status of "no, we don't talk about it here, this never happened." :D 

[Jimmious]

Fun is also a very relative term. I have fun while getting my ass kicked continuously in Jagged Alliance 2. Others probably don't find that fun at all.
Should they complain and change a game that I have perfect fun with just because it's not their taste? No I don't think so.
Complaints and changes should be targeted into a game's context and what it wants to achieve. 

For example if someone complains that PoE doesn't have the super fast 3d action that he wants in order to find games "fun", well, no one should care. That's not the kind of fun that PoE is aiming at.
Now if complaints are targeted to specific features and how they work within the context of the game, then yes by all means let us hear them. I guess they help the devs too.

[Ohioastro]

Game players are amazingly conservative.  That really hit me when I saw posts here complaining...about being able to get loot from multiple corpses at once instead of clicking on every.single.one.  A large fraction of the complaint posts here amount to people being upset that this game isn't an exact copy of Baldur's Gate, or that it violates their longstanding habits of how games work (how dare they make Might increase spellpower, or have it be sensible to have intelligent barbarians!  Everyone knows that barbarians are stupid and mages are weak!) 

 

Not all criticism is equal.  It's valuable to have people who put the effort into understanding a system so that they can provide an intelligent critique (e.g. I think that they intended X, but they achieved Y instead...)  But many of the posts along these lines are objectively misinformed - as an example, I've seen some claiming that trash clearing is required everywhere, in a game where there is no combat exp and where a large fraction of encounters can be avoided completely. 

 

There is also such as thing as destructive criticism.  When it is personal, relentless, and hostile it's no longer serving any positive purpose.  And, to be truthful, if something like a game makes you angry - I think that you're best off just stepping away and letting it go.

[ednanf]

 

 

"The game is soooo booooring? Will that be fixed in the next patch?"

 

That behaviour in people is what I find too entitled.

 

 

Anybody who finds the game to be boring has every right to raise their issues. They paid for the fun that was promised and they're not getting it.

 

Here is a prime example of self entitlement.

 

If one isn’t having fun, it’s one’s problem.

I might hate a movie and my friend think it’s the best movie ever. After we go to the movies should I ask my money back because it was not what I expected? This is pure bull****.

 

If one does not like the game, move on ffs. People forget one basic thing: you do not have to play the game. It doesn’t matter if you paid for it. Paying for something does not mean you must actually have to play, use, etc.

Edited April 8, 2015 by ednanf

[Isi1dur]

Critique is good and most welcomed as far as i am concerned.

 

I love this game but quite frankly it's far from perfect in it's current iteration, there are numerous things which can be ironed out, improved, balanced, and features which can be expanded upon since they aren't living up to their potential (stronghold for example is just an empty shell of a feature compared to what it could realistically be), not by any stretch.

 

Also there are obvious issues with the AI, pathfinding, certain mechanics such is stealth for example, the need to constantly run in scout mode with speed turned up in order to not miss a lot of things (a LOT of people really dislikes this judging from this and various other boards), underpowered classes, questionable design decisions regarding attributes and what you gain from them (yes, it is a problem for numerous people from a RP and gameplay point of view that Might increases both your physical and magical prowess, and Sawyer really didn't have to go out of his way trying to reinvent the wheel here especially since the old way is better).

 

All in all it has to be said that critique can only lead to a better, more polished game here, unlike the OP's attempt to silence it.

[Xharlie]

I guess I'll accept that PoE simply isn't for me, then. Either way, I've stated my points and have nothing further to add.

[ednanf]

Critique is good and most welcomed as far as i am concerned.

 

I love this game but quite frankly it's far from perfect in it's current iteration, there are numerous things which can be ironed out, improved, balanced, and features which can be expanded upon since they aren't living up to their potential (stronghold for example is just an empty shell of a feature compared to what it could realistically be), not by any stretch.

 

Also there are obvious issues with the AI, pathfinding, certain mechanics such is stealth for example, the need to constantly run in scout mode with speed turned up in order to not miss a lot of things (a LOT of people really dislikes this judging from this and various other boards), underpowered classes, questionable design decisions regarding attributes and what you gain from them (yes, it is a problem for numerous people from a RP and gameplay point of view that Might increases both your physical and magical prowess, and Sawyer really didn't have to go out of his way trying to reinvent the wheel here especially since the old way is better).

 

All in all it has to be said that critique can only lead to a better, more polished game here, unlike the OP's attempt to silence it.

The point is not that there are critiques about objective elements of the game. The point is “game too easy” “game too hard” “can I haz gamez without battlez plz” “I can’t play this game if I can’t walk”  “__________ (insert whatever you want here) breaks my IMMERRRRSHUUNNN”

[dusklight]

If I whine about anything it's because I see this game being so close to being actually a good game but with so many small, easily fixable flaws that makes it not worth playing.

 

I just want to say that this is 2015. If you played Baldur's Gate and no other game until PoE I guess it's easy to think of it as a good game, but times have changed. We've had many good games come out since then, not just in terms of graphics but in terms of game design. I can excuse the issues with graphics, but outdated standards of game design make this game unacceptable.

 

In this era of Dark Souls and Bloodborne, LoL and Dota2, we have much higher expectations for game flow and challenge. I just want to compare this game to Bloodborne for a minute, because both games came out more or less the same time. Now they are both very different games, and anyone who has played Bloodborne will be familiar with feelings of frustration and moments of "WTF" when playing it. The big difference between Bloodborne and PoE is you never think the designer of Bloodborne was stupid or obviously wrong. Stuff like making constitution points matter so little you can use it as a dump stat, almost every class maxing might and dumping perception, the way deflection and accuracy scale making them either really good or completely unimportant, fan of flames being so much better than fireball, and on and on and on .. games like Dota2 have gotten us used to spells that look very simple at the beginning but allow a huge amount of creativity on how to use them and how good they can be. PoE just measures so poorly in terms of game design to those games. I think it could have made it if it spent 6 more months in playtesting. Obsidian should be paying us for all the beta testing we are doing for them.

[pedroantonio]

 

 OP's attempt to silence it.

Well, that's unfair man, I haven't tried to silence anybody, I even asked for opinions and thoughts about the whole thing at the end of my post.

Edited April 8, 2015 by pedroantonio

[Ohioastro]

Critique is good and most welcomed as far as i am concerned.

 

I love this game but quite frankly it's far from perfect in it's current iteration, there are numerous things which can be ironed out, improved, balanced, and features which can be expanded upon since they aren't living up to their potential (stronghold for example is just an empty shell of a feature compared to what it could realistically be), not by any stretch.

 

Also there are obvious issues with the AI, pathfinding, certain mechanics such is stealth for example, the need to constantly run in scout mode with speed turned up in order to not miss a lot of things (a LOT of people really dislikes this judging from this and various other boards), underpowered classes, questionable design decisions regarding attributes and what you gain from them (yes, it is a problem for numerous people from a RP and gameplay point of view that Might increases both your physical and magical prowess, and Sawyer really didn't have to go out of his way trying to reinvent the wheel here especially since the old way is better).

 

All in all it has to be said that critique can only lead to a better, more polished game here, unlike the OP's attempt to silence it.

 

 

Here is an example:  If you set autopause to "seeing enemies" you don't need to use stealth running at all. It will stop you before they see you; you can then cancel movement with the x button, enter stealth, and prep.  It is very rare to have hidden treasures outside of very logical areas (e.g. they are not at random spots in hallways; they're in cluttered rooms, temples, and so forth.)  The exception is when you're going through dungeon corridors that have traps...which is, well, a staple of games like this since about forever.

 

So when I see claims like this I just have to scratch my head - because there is a very easy way, within the current game system, to avoid precisely the problem that's being claimed.  And instead of talking to people about how to get around this problem it gets asserted as fact that you have to play in a certain way - a fact that just isn't so.

[Isi1dur]

 

Critique is good and most welcomed as far as i am concerned.

 

I love this game but quite frankly it's far from perfect in it's current iteration, there are numerous things which can be ironed out, improved, balanced, and features which can be expanded upon since they aren't living up to their potential (stronghold for example is just an empty shell of a feature compared to what it could realistically be), not by any stretch.

 

Also there are obvious issues with the AI, pathfinding, certain mechanics such is stealth for example, the need to constantly run in scout mode with speed turned up in order to not miss a lot of things (a LOT of people really dislikes this judging from this and various other boards), underpowered classes, questionable design decisions regarding attributes and what you gain from them (yes, it is a problem for numerous people from a RP and gameplay point of view that Might increases both your physical and magical prowess, and Sawyer really didn't have to go out of his way trying to reinvent the wheel here especially since the old way is better).

 

All in all it has to be said that critique can only lead to a better, more polished game here, unlike the OP's attempt to silence it.

The point is not that there are critiques about objective elements of the game. The point is “game too easy” “game too hard” “can I haz gamez without battlez plz” “I can’t play this game if I can’t walk”  “__________ (insert whatever you want here) breaks my IMMERRRRSHUUNNN”

 

Yes, there are always trolls, on every board of every game in existence, especially in the RPG genre.

 

That being said, i don't even go to threads such are the ones you have mentioned since those very titles reek of BS and my troll sensors start beeping immediately.

[ednanf]

 

 

Critique is good and most welcomed as far as i am concerned.

 

I love this game but quite frankly it's far from perfect in it's current iteration, there are numerous things which can be ironed out, improved, balanced, and features which can be expanded upon since they aren't living up to their potential (stronghold for example is just an empty shell of a feature compared to what it could realistically be), not by any stretch.

 

Also there are obvious issues with the AI, pathfinding, certain mechanics such is stealth for example, the need to constantly run in scout mode with speed turned up in order to not miss a lot of things (a LOT of people really dislikes this judging from this and various other boards), underpowered classes, questionable design decisions regarding attributes and what you gain from them (yes, it is a problem for numerous people from a RP and gameplay point of view that Might increases both your physical and magical prowess, and Sawyer really didn't have to go out of his way trying to reinvent the wheel here especially since the old way is better).

 

All in all it has to be said that critique can only lead to a better, more polished game here, unlike the OP's attempt to silence it.

The point is not that there are critiques about objective elements of the game. The point is “game too easy” “game too hard” “can I haz gamez without battlez plz” “I can’t play this game if I can’t walk”  “__________ (insert whatever you want here) breaks my IMMERRRRSHUUNNN”

 

Yes, there are always trolls, on every board of every game in existence, especially in the RPG genre.

 

That being said, i don't even go to threads such are the ones you have mentioned since those very titles reek of BS and my troll sensors start beeping immediately.

 

Seriously, go read them, some of them are dead serious.

There’s this one guy that did want to have no battles in the game. The walking one is also pretty common. 

I thought it was trolling at first, but many aren’t.

[InfiniteEternity]

So - you came on an internet forum - which is made for debate back & forth.

 

 

And you start whining about...debate?

 

 

Some people just see problems because theire the problem themselves.

[Ink Blot]

 

- as an example, I've seen some claiming that trash clearing is required everywhere, in a game where there is no combat exp and where a large fraction of encounters can be avoided completely. 

In a way, I can actually agree with this complaint. Being an RPG, a large part of the game is exploration to discover new areas and quests. As far as I've seen so far, there's no way to avoid the vast majority of combat if you're doing any kind of exploration on the maps. I'm not sure I'd call them 'trash mobs' though. But saying you can avoid a large fraction of encounters is somewhat disingenuous though, especially if you're the type of player that wants to explore the RPG world in which you['re immersed.

[k1rage]

do you have anything better to whine about?

 

cuz thats kinda what game forums typically become is a place for people to come to whine about the game lol

[Phoynix]

Might doesnt make sense, its also not used in the actual game in a magic sense.. always physical...

This could be considered a bug when it comes to magic users with high might for spell power getting physical options in scripted events...

 

Wizards spell power only on par with druids(at best), yet druids have far more health start with double the deflection modifier.

Wizards also have to stuff around with spell books and limited spells that get increased by buying spells from other gilmores...

 

One could also make the argument its a bug... that it was NOT intended by the developers for the Wizard to be a second class spell caster that is pretty much worse in every way then the rest and which costs MONEY when the other casters do not.

 

Further asking the developers to actually look into it and see if maybe it needs fixing is not whining...

 

Its like asking a mechanic who you paid to fix your car... and who didnt do it properly to actually do the job you paid them to do... is whining.

 

If one does not give feed back, Obsidion cant look into it... decide if its working as intended or not  and if not, fix it.

 

 

Anybody who finds the game to be boring has every right to raise their issues. They paid for the fun that was promised and they're not getting it.

 

So, if you buy a book and don't like how the plot develops or how it is narrated to you, do you feel justified to go to the publisher or author website and make comments like "I didn't like this and that, will you change that in the second edition to satisfy my tastes"?

Obviously not. Obviously if the book is missing ten pages in the middle, you complain rightfully, since that's something not working as intended, a bug.

Fun is not measurable, not a feature. People don't pay to have fun, they pay to have access to a product that maybe will give them fun, maybe not, and that's how they should think about it.

 

[schwanderen]

Hear hear! i can imnagine why people would be pissed about the "double click issue" - but generally people seem to be more interested in nitpicking than enjoying the sheer scale of the game and all the things it does RIGHT instead of claiming a single aspect of this huge production ruins the entire experience... Nice to see someone stand up for the poositive aspects of POE - i tried making such a post myself but it didnt get through the mods.

[Shadow_Arms]

look skyrim, for the 1st 2 years it was praised like hell, nowdays everyone bashes it due to the lazy engine job and a twice as broken creation kit

 

the only thing that is holding it is Skywind, Arthmoor's tamriel rebuilt, and now Enderal

Edited April 8, 2015 by Shadow_Arms

[Varana]

OT: That is nonsense.

Skyrim sold like crazy, in spite of heavy criticism from the start. Probably with exactly the same, err, "arguments" like PoE now - boring, not fun, buggy, whatever.

Neither Skywind nor Enderal have produced something playable until now (that is, something that works and has dialogue and stuff).

Arthmoor doesn't have much to do with TR. Which is mostly a Morrowind project, anyway.

 

And yet, even if it's been out for over three years now, there's twice as much people playing Skyrim on Steam than PoE (as of writing this).

 

[/OT]

[DIIscIIple]

I agree with the feeling, but I've come to be more bothered at myself becuase I spent so much time reading 'crazy' critics.  As a LOL player I guess I'm helpless without my mute button.

[Gromnir]

gonna disagree with the genesis post.  

 

we don't like jazz.  is not that we hate jazz, but other than the following, we has never much enjoyed jazz.

 

 

if poe had a jazz soundtrack, we would like it less.  subjective?  hell yeah.

 

when mike saas and the biowarians released teasers o' the bg2 portraits, there were more than a few complaints.  is gonna sound offensive to some, but initial bg2 minsc looked to us as if he had down's syndrome, and we loathed the color palette with all the pastels. many folks complained about the prospective bg2 portraits and the reasons for disliking the images o' keldorn or imoen were all very subjective.  so, what did bioware do?  bioware changed the portraits in minor and major ways.  personally, we still hated the portraits after saas made changes, but the community as a whole were approving. 

 

particularly as this game is a kickstarter, purchaser should offer up their criticisms, no matter how subjective.  there were no chance for Gromnir to be objective and rational before making our purchase.  we looked at obsidian's goals and we considered their history and then we offered obsidian money sight unseen.  vote rational with our dollars or euros or yen were not possible. most o' the beta criticisms we saw were feel nonsense.  ui should be more wood-grain, or were it less?  perhaps it were more a color complaint?  we frequent heard that classes should be more like bg iterations.  we needed kill xp. when asked why such stuff were needed in poe, the poster would hurt themselves attempting to make something other than a complete subjective gut-level appeal.  if we were a developer, we would scream in frustration but at the same time, those subjective considerations is as important to our enjoyment o' a game as is the objective.  

 

too much text?  not for Gromnir, but we recall that criticism from ps:t.  well guess what, after all the folks complained 'bout ps:t wall-o'-text ps:t dialogues, black isle changed.  black isle, and even other developers, would use ps:t as a kinda a "Here, There Be Dragons," edge o' the map for dialog tediousness.  developers would reassure potential purchasers that while their game would have impressive plot and character development, it wouldn't have as much dialog as ps:t.  so, add a decade o' time for reflection and obsidian boasts that  poe would go back to  ps:t style dialogue and there were much rejoicing from the die hards.  the thing is, what if folks don't like ps:t wall-o'-text more now than they did in 1999?  yeah, folks has no cause to act surprised that dialogues is longer than in typical crpgs o' the 21st century, but if you don't like poe dialogues, you should freaking complain.  complain now so that obsidian's next game won't add subjective stuff that you don't like.

 

complain about subjective is not a bad thing, but don't pretend such complaints is objective and don't be surprised if developers have no response.  Gromnir likes chicago-style pizza.  other folks prefer ny.  when it becomes time to order a pizza, am gonna voice our preference.  why is game features a different scenario?

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Eurhetemec]

if poe had a jazz soundtrack, we would like it less.  subjective?  hell yeah.

 

Speak for yourself mate!

 

Really good jazz soundtrack on an FRPG would be awesome.

Edited April 8, 2015 by Eurhetemec

[Gromnir]

 

if poe had a jazz soundtrack, we would like it less.  subjective?  hell yeah.

 

Speak for yourself mate!

 

Really good jazz soundtrack on an FRPG would be awesome.

 

we were speaking for our self.  that were the point.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Monte Carlo]

Even more annoying than whiners are counter-whiners. Or meta-whiners. Or shills. Yeah, meta-whining shills, of which there is no shortage 'round here.

[Ineth]

• "Group stealth doesn't allow me to backstab" (a clear signal they haven't read the manual and don't know that sneak attack has nothing to do with being stealthy)

 

Or that you haven't read up on the Rogue-specific talents very diligently, because there is in fact one called "Backstab", and it does in fact suck as a result of the party stealth mechanic.