There's no reason companions to have fixed builds

[Frenzy-kun]

From a gameplay and design perspective, having a set of characters makes perfect sense. A game is about reaching a goal following some rules. Rules are limitations. Having a defined and not variable set of recruitable NPCs is also a limitation, a rule and part of what makes the game.

 

A game with no limitations is not a game. In fact, adding limitations to common actions makes them a game. Do not mix up your tastes with game design. Game design is never intended to please all the tastes but their target's one. And your tastes doesn't have to fit 100% the tastes of the target.

[sparklecat]

From a gameplay and design perspective, having a set of characters makes perfect sense. A game is about reaching a goal following some rules. Rules are limitations. Having a defined and not variable set of recruitable NPCs is also a limitation, a rule and part of what makes the game.

 

A game with no limitations is not a game. In fact, adding limitations to common actions makes them a game. Do not mix up your tastes with game design. Game design is never intended to please all the tastes but their target's one. And your tastes doesn't have to fit 100% the tastes of the target.

Um.  Okay, but you haven't actually justified why this limitation should exist, you've just spoken up in favour of limitations in general, which I don't think anyone's arguing against.

[Frenzy-kun]

 

From a gameplay and design perspective, having a set of characters makes perfect sense. A game is about reaching a goal following some rules. Rules are limitations. Having a defined and not variable set of recruitable NPCs is also a limitation, a rule and part of what makes the game.

 

A game with no limitations is not a game. In fact, adding limitations to common actions makes them a game. Do not mix up your tastes with game design. Game design is never intended to please all the tastes but their target's one. And your tastes doesn't have to fit 100% the tastes of the target.

Um.  Okay, but you haven't actually justified why this limitation should exist, you've just spoken up in favour of limitations in general, which I don't think anyone's arguing against.

 

Because every game is different. Why should I justify that in soccer you cannot touch the ball with your hands? It's the game rules. They could have done it differently? Yes, they could, and then, a different game it would be.

 

They decided to go for static characters for some reasons. I am not part of the dev team so I cannot know. But, that decision makes a different gameplay. Or are you not going to agree that the feeling is different? Because we are the example. You like it so you can freely make your party as desired. I prefer built and unique characters and finish the game with the resources given. Two different profiles and luckily, we can have both choices.

Edited April 7, 2015 by Frenzy-kun

[sparklecat]

So your argument for why it should be this way is "because I like it?"

 

Well, it's got the benefit of simplicity, at least.

[Frenzy-kun]

So your argument for why it should be this way is "because I like it?"

 

Well, it's got the benefit of simplicity, at least.

Of course. Videogames is leisure, and the objective is to provide something people likes.

[Shinae]

I used IE mod to change my companion attributes. I'm having a nice playthru with all the companions instead of using full custom party. Now I get to enjoy companion quests and comments while having a good party.

 

I could change their classes as well, but I just did the stats. No regrets. And having Durance with 10 resolve instead of 18 doesn't ruin my roleplaying feeling at all.

[kat7ra]

Hey, we have mods and console commands to do this don't we?

 

Asking that all NPCs be fully changeable (except class and race) just seems wrong for me. It's an RPG, part of the charm is who you meet on the road. Being able to mold them into whatever you want seems to me to be a bit weird, you're not hiring a specialized combat wizard, you met a guy names Aloth and decided to travel together for a while.

If his competence in battle isn't up to your standards and that's more important to you than his friendship than swap him out.

If you're interested enough in his personal story then you'll carry some extra weight on your shoulders, and if you're not able to do that then maybe you'll have to make a hard choice.

 

Choices and consequences is what makes or breaks good RP for me, and the more you allow toe player to directly change the world around him instead of adapting, the worse the RP aspect in my book.

 

Now if a side characters is badly designed of course one can complain, but this is not the solution that I would like to see in an RPG, fits other genres better imo.

[Prideaux]

good grief, dont like the pre-built NPCs dont use them, thats goes to pretty much all RPG's of this kind in existance. At least unlike BG you have the freedom to not use them at all. Every player has them own version of an optimial build. Just because you dont think they are, and just because your interpretation of the maths of min/max doesnt say they are, that doesnt mean they arent a good build.

 

this game allows you the freedom to customise them a lot,it also gives you the freedom to not use them at all, thats a lot more than some games do

[Zwiebelchen]

That discussion again?

 

Seriously, attributes in this game matter much less than you guys think they do...

 

The only thing that really matters about the NPCs in the long run are some of the selected talents. And you can combat that by picking them up early. One wasted talent is not the end of the world.

Edited April 8, 2015 by Zwiebelchen

[PhantomEidolon]

There is a valid argument to be made for having all companions start at level 1 (but with enough XP to level up immediately to the correct level), but allowing the player to chose a different class / race combination would definitely break the story.

 

There's a mod that allowed the player to do that in DAO. So hopefully a mod will be made for PoE companions too. I like being available to manually level up my npc companions.

 

I don't mind companions being a fixed race/class since it's part of their story and personality, but i'd at least want to decide what talents and attributes they get.

[Hassat Hunter]

Seriously, what's up with all the munchkinners in this game.

 

"I want to design my NPC from the ground up" > adventurers people. If you really want this.

"I build myself around certain items, if they don't appear I cheat them in. All items should drop!" > No, they should not. Instead of building your character around items (an extremely foolish thing for any CRPG to actually work towards) roll with the punches.

 

When did people, roleplayers, forgot part of the challenge is rolling with the punches? Make the best of what comes you way. Rather than if something doesn't comes your way you read in a guide, you cheat it in, blame the devs and then expect them to "fix" it (there's nothing broken) just cause it's seamingly hard to grasp that they never intended you to have a super-munchkin play with super l33t team with all the best items you know you can find where...

 

People, I tell you...

[RadonGOG]

Because the character's class and background tie in with their background story -- Durance's story wouldn't make any sense if he wasn't a priest, for example.

 

There is a valid argument to be made for having all companions start at level 1 (but with enough XP to level up immediately to the correct level), but allowing the player to chose a different class / race combination would definitely break the story.

This is a problem resulting of the fact that Pillars does personal XP instead of global XP! (each char get XP on their on account and not onto one account that is the same for everybody)

Which is a huge mistake that has been made in SO many games and yes, even the classics did that one! But this doesn´t make it less a mistake...

(it´s good to see that it mostly doesn´t matter in Pillars---in Drakensang I sadly realized it did heavy impact---when a char was taken from your party and returned "years later", he had the same XP as before, making him completly useless...) 

[Shinae]

 

There is a valid argument to be made for having all companions start at level 1 (but with enough XP to level up immediately to the correct level), but allowing the player to chose a different class / race combination would definitely break the story.

 

There's a mod that allowed the player to do that in DAO. So hopefully a mod will be made for PoE companions too. I like being available to manually level up my npc companions.

 

I don't mind companions being a fixed race/class since it's part of their story and personality, but i'd at least want to decide what talents and attributes they get.

 

 

IE mod has ChangeClass command. It can be used to relevel character with it's original class as well. So it does exactly what you want. If you use it on Edér to change him into Fighter, he just gets level 0 and you can do manual leveling for him until he is again level 2 or 3, or whatever his original level was.

[Raz415]

It's not that they're just suboptimal, they are really bad. I can take suboptimal, and it's nice that every time you get a companion you don't have to level it up from scratch, but a choice would have been good. A respec item that you can only use once would have been great. Or at least a choice to have the companion level 1 with enough XP to level up to your level, or just have it "default". I would have been very happy to have Pallegina as a tanky Paladin, but it's basically impossible. By the time you get to her she's already heavily specced into DPS. And don't get me started on Durance. 

[Shadow_Arms]

**** that Bears Fortitude on Durance. **** it **** **** ****.

 

I don't understand why there needs to be so many trashy talents anyway.

well my durance is the most tanky bastard of my crew, eder is the main tank, but durance is a tower of perpetual healing on melee

[Nukenin]

I think all NPCs should be modifiable.  I'd like to give my opponents ones in everything.  For the greater balance, after all.

[Raz415]

 

 

There is a valid argument to be made for having all companions start at level 1 (but with enough XP to level up immediately to the correct level), but allowing the player to chose a different class / race combination would definitely break the story.

 

There's a mod that allowed the player to do that in DAO. So hopefully a mod will be made for PoE companions too. I like being available to manually level up my npc companions.

 

I don't mind companions being a fixed race/class since it's part of their story and personality, but i'd at least want to decide what talents and attributes they get.

 

 

IE mod has ChangeClass command. It can be used to relevel character with it's original class as well. So it does exactly what you want. If you use it on Edér to change him into Fighter, he just gets level 0 and you can do manual leveling for him until he is again level 2 or 3, or whatever his original level was.

 

Is it possible to use IEmod to do that and still get achievements in the game?

[Slapstick87]

I wish there where a "Deus Ex Machina" mode or whatever they'd like to call it, like Trial of Iron or Expert, that allows you to customize the characters BEFORE the game starts, "blindly" and anonymously. So before starting the game you get to customize a "fighter" with no name and no picture. No idea when he'll show up, but when he does he has your customized stats and are at lvl 1 - but given xp to level up to your level. Let me do this for all characters. If I want to. Problem solved.

[wanderon]

I wish there where a "Deus Ex Machina" mode or whatever they'd like to call it, like Trial of Iron or Expert, that allows you to customize the characters BEFORE the game starts, "blindly" and anonymously. So before starting the game you get to customize a "fighter" with no name and no picture. No idea when he'll show up, but when he does he has your customized stats and are at lvl 1 - but given xp to level up to your level. Let me do this for all characters. If I want to. Problem solved.

 

You can make characters any way you wish as adventurers - if you then wish to not use them until some random time or place in the game just use dice/cards draw names/times out of a hat etc.to figure that out. problem solved no dev resources needed.

[Mungri]

Well I just took the extra 8-12 burn damage on my custom priests Holy Radiance, thinking it would affect all enemies.

 

Still vessels only.

 

/Sepakku.

[Daemonjax]

I wish there where a "Deus Ex Machina" mode or whatever they'd like to call it, like Trial of Iron or Expert, that allows you to customize the characters BEFORE the game starts, "blindly" and anonymously. So before starting the game you get to customize a "fighter" with no name and no picture. No idea when he'll show up, but when he does he has your customized stats and are at lvl 1 - but given xp to level up to your level. Let me do this for all characters. If I want to. Problem solved.

 

I predict eventually we'll be able effectively do what you describe via mods.

 

This isn't something that devs really need to spend time on, except perhaps to help make these things moddable.

Edited April 10, 2015 by Daemonjax

[Hassat Hunter]

Why should they? The system's already in as said in the form of Adventurers...

[sucinum]

I think a mechanism to swap talents or relevel would be a good idea. Currently, the game basically asks for rushing to the companions, so you can customize them more. I especially dislike that some of them already have a weapon focus, but other feat and spell choices are also questionable.

Another idea would be the option to add them as level 1-characters and you can level them up by yourself. That should be easy enough and still can be optional.

[wanderon]

I think a mechanism to swap talents or relevel would be a good idea. Currently, the game basically asks for rushing to the companions, so you can customize them more. I especially dislike that some of them already have a weapon focus, but other feat and spell choices are also questionable.

Another idea would be the option to add them as level 1-characters and you can level them up by yourself. That should be easy enough and still can be optional.

 IMO this just turns companions into adventurers with voice acting you may as well forget any RP value

[Daemonjax]

 

I think a mechanism to swap talents or relevel would be a good idea. Currently, the game basically asks for rushing to the companions, so you can customize them more. I especially dislike that some of them already have a weapon focus, but other feat and spell choices are also questionable.

Another idea would be the option to add them as level 1-characters and you can level them up by yourself. That should be easy enough and still can be optional.

 IMO this just turns companions into adventurers with voice acting you may as well forget any RP value

 

 

RP means different things to different people, which is why I think this situation is exactly why game mods are popular.

 

It's a lot more fun and feels more in-character for me to re-level the companions when I find them naturally than to rush through the areas to pick up the companions at an early level.

 

Why do I limit myself to those choices?  Because the third choice is too sub-optimal for me, and so ends up being even less fun than doing either of the above.

 

I'm not telling anyone to play the way I do, and I'm not asking the devs to re-balance the game around my particular play style (no matter how popular I think it really is).  I can modify them myself, so I do.  Fun goes up.

 

I'd prefer to be able to choose what their level up path is before I even start a new game -- but that's a mod that doesn't exist yet.

Edited April 12, 2015 by Daemonjax