[balancing] Cipher/Chanter too strong?

[STiAT]

I did (a lot of) restarts the past few days, to check chars, skills and so on.

 

Anyway, what I see as gamebreaking is that Chanter and Cipher are horribly strong. At least ability whise. If you keep using Cipher in early combat to take opponents, and Chanter to control the combat later on by summons - it's pretty much unbeatable (1 cipher, 1 chanter level 5 at the searing falls dragon, a bit a challange, but not worse than with a whole party).

 

What I could do is take over both drakes with the cipher, killing the lows and getting killed by the dragon, after that I had enough to summon my blockers / dragons by the Chanter, and simply continue that (and placing correctly not to get in the flames cone of the dragon) - and it was done.

 

Putting a defensive fighter there would only have made a difference on pull (was hard to keep the cipher to survive), damage whise it seems as if new summons don't suffer penatlies as characters do (athletics / combat duration).  I wonder how that would have turned out with a defensively skilled Cipher, but in the end, both vocations are pretty ... essential and ... very powerful compared to others, even though, others have their use too (especially figher, druid and mage). I personally consider all others pretty useless due to a lack of opportunities what you can do with them and how you can use them to react on certain situations.

[vsanders]

The only thing I've found to be a little OP about the Cipher is Mental Binding. It's hard to justify spending my focus on anything else, even the badass Mind Blades. This is particularly true if I'm trying to make it through a dungeon on one rest (self-imposed rule.) Taking multiple melee enemies out of the fight (and therefore reducing health loss) > then just about any other use of my Cipher.

[Atheosis]

No, some other classes are just weak.

[Dongom]

They take huge dumps on Wizard , except for the one or two fights where you might really need Petrify/Sleep/Confuse.

 

I beat PoTD as a Wizard, but I woulda swore Grieving Mother was my Player!  I shoulda swapped portraits with a mod.

Edited April 4, 2015 by Dongom

[Sylvanpyxie]

 

 

They take huge dumps on Wizard , except for the one or two fights where you might really need Petrify/Sleep/Confuse.

Gotta get that petrify...... To buff my Cipher mind pierce damage.

[sim-h]

 

at the searing falls dragon

Thanks for the spoiler.

[manageri]

Dunno about chanters cos I never tried summons much, but ciphers definitely seemed overpowered on hard difficulty. Their CC abilities simply last too long. I'd also say they start combat with too much focus. This allows them to initially keep way too many enemies easily paralyzed/prone until most of the enemies (or at least the dangerous ones) are down and the fight is basically won. They also have insanely many great spells with no casting time.

[Schakar]

I don't belive that Chanters are to strong. Most fights are over long bevore you can make use of a chanters abilitys (my Wizard nuked the hell out of the enemys long before the Chanter got his 4th chant stack). And this 1 or 2 fights which last long enough can be handled without a Chanter very well.

 

Ciphers are difficult. Most of their spells aren't realy that strong. Only 2 or 3 are a bit over the top (long duration CC). But the rest are fine with the "low power peer use but can be spamed".

[Envy]

I don't know, I've had the most success with druid myself. While spiritshifting needs to be buffed so that it remains viable throughout they have some crazy powerful spells. 

 

Wizard on the other hand just seems... bad. 

[AgentTBC]

I agree about Mental Binding.  I have a ton of abilities and 95% of the time it's just... Mental Binding.

[Luj1]

There is a lot of balancing to be done. In about 1 year I think it will be better.

 

 

As it is now:

 

- barbarians are glass cannons. I know their high AoE DPS is intended, but no way they should drop as fast as my mage.

- Ciphers have some really OP abilities (more than some other classes anyway) and they refresh

- 6 Chanters can faceroll hard mode with expert and ToI. After every chant sequence your party multiplies. You start with skeletons, then phantoms (which hit like a truck and are hard to hit), and eventually drakes. So basically you have a multiplying Borg army

- Moon Godlike's are the best godlikes by far, Nature probably being the worst. Try 6 Moon Barbarians and go AFK during a fight

- haven't played other classes so I don't know about them

 

 

The way it is now, there is many gimmicks in PoE which really makes me think I'm playing a MMO..... you have a tank, a dps, a healer, etc etc.

 

Exactly the opposite was promised on Kickstarter - no standard RPG/MMO trinity , and also to be able to make a party free of restrictions.

 

 

 

 

EDIT: On the other hand however, I love that Intelligence is now possible for Barbarians (increases AoE/Duration), while Might makes sense on Wizards (more spell damage ) This was promised and is fulfilled , so it's good... but there is still much, much work to be done... (Exactly why I don't understand WHY they're indulging people on twitter about meaningless stuff instead of working on balancing which is so obviously needed )

Edited April 5, 2015 by Rosbjerg

[AgentTBC]

How would you guys fix Mental Binding?   Changing its cast speed would be one obvious tweak.  Range as well or is that too much?

[Elgyn]

I honestly don't think they are too strong, I just think a couple (more of the basic melee types) just don't have enough interactivity to have the tools to equal them in pure strength that a player can pull off. That kind of sounds wishy-washy, so I guess what I'm trying to say is I think they have kits that allow players to properly eek out more power potential than several of the other classes are capable of, even if they received increased number tweaks. 

Instead of taking the MMO route of pulling everyone down to a baseline bar, I'd rather see Obsidian introduce some tweaks and abilities to bring the weaker classes (Maybe it's just me but Ranger seems to stiiiiiiink) up to the same power level as to the top tier classes.


 

[Caerdon]

- Moon Godlike's are the best godlikes by far, Nature probably being the worst. Try 6 Moon Barbarians and go AFK during a fight

 

Nah, Nature is better than Death. +3 STR, +2 DEX and +2 CON when under 50% endurance adds up to more than dealing +20% damage to enemies under 25% endurance, especially as you get those bonuses precisely when you need them the most.

[Gwydeon79]

So I've been running with: Eder, Pallegina, Durance, Aloth, Kana (had Sagani for a little while).

Everyone has the best gear we've found, my Cipher is rocking Forgiveness (Pistol).

 

Pre-Item stats: MGT 14, CON 10, PER 14, INT 12, RES 14 <- So, sub optimal. (items/perm-buffs will be aimed at INT to compensate)

I use Mental Binding or Mind Blades most of the time. I have Recall Agony and Fractured Volition for boss killing. I don't really touch the level 1 powers any more, that focus is better dumped into higher stuff.

Main character: 11k damage (at level 5). Everybody else: Less than 2000.

 

I am DESTROYING things. I don't mind that... so much. But the rest of the party is lagging so far behind I feel like I'm some how not serving them right. Everyone hates on Aloth's stats but he's the next highest.

And don't get on a high horse about how bad their stats are, I want their stories and witty quips

[Dongom]

 

- 6 Chanters can faceroll hard mode with expert and ToI. After every chant sequence your party multiplies. You start with skeletons, then phantoms (which hit like a truck and are hard to hit), and eventually drakes. So basically you have a multiplying Borg army

 

 

I disagree with this. I play on hard and my enemies usually die before my Chanter can get off a 3-Phrase chant, much less a 5-Phrase drake.

 

It might seem OP, but if you run a party with a Druid/Chanter/Wiz combo who just blows up the entire screen before your chanter can even get 2 phrases....well...lol.

[Mungri]

Meh, I'm strolling through POTD like easy mode with 2x fighters, 2x paladins, priest and wizard atm. Don't need chanters or ciphers to be OP.

[Lightzy]

Chanter and Cipher are indeed much more powerful than other classes. give them good defense and they serve the tank position just as well as warriors, but with insane added benefits.

 

It almost seems like the designer has a special affinity for something that he made up

 

ranger is the weakest, with a main class feature (pet) that weakass and is much more risk than it is reward

[Luj1]

 

 

- 6 Chanters can faceroll hard mode with expert and ToI. After every chant sequence your party multiplies. You start with skeletons, then phantoms (which hit like a truck and are hard to hit), and eventually drakes. So basically you have a multiplying Borg army

 

 

I disagree with this. I play on hard and my enemies usually die before my Chanter can get off a 3-Phrase chant, much less a 5-Phrase drake.

 

It might seem OP, but if you run a party with a Druid/Chanter/Wiz combo who just blows up the entire screen before your chanter can even get 2 phrases....well...lol.

 

 

So what are you disagreeing with.... You can kill faster than 6 Chanters would? That's fine, but it's still OP as hell.

 

I love people who seldom think before they post.

Edited April 5, 2015 by Luj1

[termokanden]

Chanters are fine. It takes a while to get to 3-4 phrases, and by then you'd expect the spell to be pretty damn good, and they are.

 

Ciphers are fine as well IMO. I've made fighters and rogues that were just as powerful - the fighter was nigh unkillable and the rogue's DPS was crazy (dual-wielding stilettos with Reckless Assault, Savage Attacks, Deep Wounds and all the crit talents on a hearth orlan is devastating).

Edited April 5, 2015 by termokanden

[Dongom]

 

 

 

- 6 Chanters can faceroll hard mode with expert and ToI. After every chant sequence your party multiplies. You start with skeletons, then phantoms (which hit like a truck and are hard to hit), and eventually drakes. So basically you have a multiplying Borg army

 

 

I disagree with this. I play on hard and my enemies usually die before my Chanter can get off a 3-Phrase chant, much less a 5-Phrase drake.

 

It might seem OP, but if you run a party with a Druid/Chanter/Wiz combo who just blows up the entire screen before your chanter can even get 2 phrases....well...lol.

 

 

So what are you disagreeing with.... You can kill faster than 6 Chanters would? That's fine, but it's still OP as hell.

 

I love people who seldom think before they post.

 

 

I'm just saying I don't think it's that OP.  It takes that setup 2-4x longer to kill stuff than a real party, that is a major drawback.

 

Just my thoughts.

Edited April 5, 2015 by Dongom

[termokanden]

They don't have powerful summons or CCs early in the fight when you most need them. That's why their extremely powerful spells aren't too much. You have to survive long enough to even use them, and then you only get one for a long while.

Edited April 5, 2015 by termokanden

[Luj1]

 

- Moon Godlike's are the best godlikes by far, Nature probably being the worst. Try 6 Moon Barbarians and go AFK during a fight

 

Nah, Nature is better than Death. +3 STR, +2 DEX and +2 CON when under 50% endurance adds up to more than dealing +20% damage to enemies under 25% endurance, especially as you get those bonuses precisely when you need them the most.

 

 

 

You're probably right there.

[cdd]

can we please stop nerfing classes now? mind blades was the biggest offender in terms of cipher spells and that has been taken care of, the only thing that maybe makes cipher a little too strong right now is the draining whip -> blunderbuss synergy which generates a ****load of focus.

 

i think in general the class balance is overall suprisingly good, especially considering that they created a new ruleset from scratch and several non-cookiecutter classes on top. every class can be very strong if min/maxed correctly, and that's how it should be.

 

P.S.: i think the 1.03 balance changes were very well done and further improved the already quite good game balance considerably

Edited April 5, 2015 by cdd

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

The balance issues need some attention. I stopped playing PoE after I ruined my character with the equip bug, and these issues make me want to wait a bit more.