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@Cymelion I agree in principle but only by how far one distinguishes the difference between a consumer and a backer. Please provide evidence where they promised exclusive right to the game before official launch. When the Kickstarter began, the informal (and customary) belief was that you purchased/invested into the game early and depending on your pledge, the benefits you were guaranteed to receive. Nowhere was it stated that you were to get your keys earlier. You are NOT entitled to said keys earlier, as it was NOT inferred NOR stated in any press release that backers would get keys earlier.

 

I will concede, as mentioned earlier, there should be discussion on what backers can INFORMALLY expect from a studio/project they have backed. That is one where Obsidian will have to soul search on and in my opinion, should have spent a little time. Hindsight is 20/20 and Obsidian will mull on this, whether they set up another Kickstarter or not.

 

Common decency towards financial backers shouldn't be so little that this is to be "expected" you're correct nothing was discussed. However they also never said they'd be supplying free review copies with the ability to stream it to everyone. Or discussed that with fans.

 

The people who made this game are not novices to the industry they know your fans are your greatest asset - they should have done more to respect them in my opinion.

 

 

There is no point in discussing with you sycophants. Your feelings of "respect" have been hurt and thus, want to feel entitled to an invisible and intangible feeling of ownership.

 

Stop saying it is about respect. If anything, it is about how far a company should treat backers and to what degree one has ownership over their investment/backing. The mewling over respect is entirely in your head and that of LordCrash.

 

I hope this comes as a lesson to you to be wary about how you pledge in the future and be mindful of how developers will approach this in the future.

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"You didn't give me extra free stuff for no reason. Why do you hate me so much?"

 

It's not extra free stuff - I'm not asking for the 5,000 buck tier - just asking to be on the same page as the people that got review copies.

 

Start making fun of me all you like and posting memes - it doesn't change the fact that some backers are upset by this. They will be more than happy to take it out on Obsidian again I have no beef with other backers who are happy to come second - some people don't mind that. But I am permitted to voice my objection and have been doing so without calling names, using all caps or generally making an arse of myself.

 

Why do you think you deserve all this extra free stuff you weren't promised? You want an early copy for literally no reason. You weren't promised it, you weren't told you'd get it, you have no reason to expect to get an early play copy for this game than for literally any other game you buy.

 

As a kickstarter backer there were a very specific list of rewards offered. I backed, too; at no point did I assume I'd get ANYTHING other than what I was told I would receive for my donation. I assumed it would be a normal and typical game release with the addition of all this extra stuff that they promised us. What your feeling is a sense of entitlement, not something based on any form of logic or reason. You are demanding that they give us extra things--early game release--that wasn't promised just because you think you deserve it.

 

It's tiring.

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Having day one reviews is important to get good selling numbers. People back this, I suppose, because thay want to play this kind of games, so... Also, review copies is a normal practice in the industry, whether you preorder, pledge or pay at release so how could you expect otherwise? People who are reviewing or streaming aren't playing, they are, theoretically, working, so relax.   

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Or maybe, you know, Obsidian would like the backers to play a finished version of the game, and not deal with 70,000 backers crapping all over the Internet saying I BACKED THIS GAME BUT ITS BUGGY, GOD OBSIDIAN DOESN'T RESPECT ITS BACKERS.

 

(Oh, that's right, many backers did get to play the Backer Beta. For months. But I guess that doesn't count as respect either?)

 

You really think the difference between a two-weeks old build and the release build is THAT big? In that case Obsidian's time management or QE just sucked again...

 

And obviously the streamers mostly liked the game although it's not the final build. So why trusting them and distrusting the backers? It's not like backers HAD to play the game before release. Everybody could wait for the day-one patch. But you'd have a choice...

 

 

It's not a question of trust. I'm sure it looks that way to you, because you're determined that every decision Obsidian has taken must have had something to do with trust and respect. 

 

Why not just get rid of the 'release' then, by your logic? Backers should have a choice to play the gold master build, the 2 month build, the beta build, the alpha build, the pre-alpha build...

 

Obsidian has the right to decide when the game is done, and to offer that finished game on the release day. Obsidian also has a right to offer media copies, like many many other games - both Kickstarted and publisher - have done. I don't find that disrespectful. But then, I have a feeling nothing will persuade you.

 

 

I just find it disappointing. Of course Obsidian has every right to decide on their own behalf, that's not what this is all about. It's just that I disagree with some of their decisions from both a backer perspective and a marketing perspective. 

 

Maybe I'm just used to the "crowdfunding 2.0" mindset while Obsidian is still stuck in the "crowdfunding 1.0" mindset. While in the latter the backer is just seen as a substitute for a publisher and for funding in the former the backer is a trusted stakeholder who is integrated in the whole development process. It's hard to describe but it's a lot about communication and how you speak with backers. It depends on whether it's a clear top down approach in which you only tell backers so much and still having a lot of control and in secret or whether it's a more joint approach, "a joint adventure", with a almost fully transparent process in which the backers are always heard first and informed first. That's indeed the route Star Citizen (and some smaller kickstarter projects by the way) is taking and that's imo the future of crowdfunding.

 

You know, a lot of people are disappointed if the "joint adventure" just lasted the 30 days of kickstarter and after that it's just a classical publisher-style model in which there is only few communication or conversation. It's not about them having a legal obligation, it's about different mindst and expectations. Some people not only saw kickstarter and crowdfunding as a mean to make games publishers refused to make they saw it as a model to completely revolutionize the development of games. Of course the emergence of early-access has a lot to do with it with more and more games not being transparently developed. And yes, this has indeed something to do with getting rid of builds, at least for those who buy in early. With digital distribution and constant patching "builds" aren't as important as 10 or even 5 years ago anyway. Of course people want a game to be finished at a certain time, so getting rid of a release makes little sense. But everything before that is changing...

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"You didn't give me extra free stuff for no reason. Why do you hate me so much?"

 

It's not extra free stuff - I'm not asking for the 5,000 buck tier - just asking to be on the same page as the people that got review copies.

 

Start making fun of me all you like and posting memes - it doesn't change the fact that some backers are upset by this. They will be more than happy to take it out on Obsidian again I have no beef with other backers who are happy to come second - some people don't mind that. But I am permitted to voice my objection and have been doing so without calling names, using all caps or generally making an arse of myself.

 

It's tiring.

 

 

Just stop posting then. Simple.

Edited by LordCrash

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That's normal and typical game-release marketing. There's no reason to think they WOULDN'T provide stream and review copies prior to release; in fact, most of the time not doing that is a sign that the company knows what they are putting out is crap and don't want bad reviews to hurt their first-day sales.

 

 

Actually by not releasing it to its backers and fans first - it shows they have no confidence in the game.

 

Because you know ... the people who bought the game would be playing it and streaming it themselves - then give the Media the same access. You would get way more vote of confidence by word of mouth - Already I am telling my friends who haven't bought it not to bother buying the game because they don't respect their fans.

 

 

Exactly. It's NOT about gaming media or streamers gettting the game earlier. It's about backers no getting the game at the same time of streamers and gaming media. It's like Obsidian distrusts their own backers that they can't understand or stomach a version without a "day one" patch for a few days of so. If you ask me giving backers the game early would have been an even more massive marketing scheme than just giving it to streamers, just like you said. They seem to forget that WE, the backers, are probably their most loyal and enthusiast fans and we want to share our enthusiasm with others. But if we have no chance to play the game we just do something else in the meantime. So giving the game earlier to backers would have been a win situation for everybody. That's what Chris Robert has already understood. That's one of the reasons why Star Citizen is THAT popular tbh. Putting backers and the fanbase first. Treat them right and they give back, short term and long term..

 

That would have made massive headlines !  We would have been like 50,000 people saying "we love you obsidian" instead of 5-6 people streaming spoilers and uploading the game as a repack on members only torrent sites.

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Obsidian wrote:
 

​"those scummy backers, we're going to screw them over by giving them their game on the release date. That'll show those bastards!" 

 

 

 Now we know what's going on...

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"You didn't give me extra free stuff for no reason. Why do you hate me so much?"

 

It's not extra free stuff - I'm not asking for the 5,000 buck tier - just asking to be on the same page as the people that got review copies.

 

Start making fun of me all you like and posting memes - it doesn't change the fact that some backers are upset by this. They will be more than happy to take it out on Obsidian again I have no beef with other backers who are happy to come second - some people don't mind that. But I am permitted to voice my objection and have been doing so without calling names, using all caps or generally making an arse of myself.

 

Why do you think you deserve all this extra free stuff you weren't promised? You want an early copy for literally no reason. You weren't promised it, you weren't told you'd get it, you have no reason to expect to get an early play copy for this game than for literally any other game you buy.

 

As a kickstarter backer there were a very specific list of rewards offered. I backed, too; at no point did I assume I'd get ANYTHING other than what I was told I would receive for my donation. I assumed it would be a normal and typical game release with the addition of all this extra stuff that they promised us. What your feeling is a sense of entitlement, not something based on any form of logic or reason. You are demanding that they give us extra things--early game release--that wasn't promised just because you think you deserve it.

 

It's tiring.

 

 

If the game is finished enough to give away copies that function and work, then its able to be given to its backers.

 

No if's no buts no maybes - I would have been happy with having a locked down media copy and the rest of the game at release giving backers a chance to play through and not be potentially spoiled by media if they chose to.

 

Get angry all you like - but I am actually entitled to feel upset about this - especially when I have seen other projects handle their backers better.

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You really think the difference between a two-weeks old build and the release build is THAT big? 

This thread is a goldmine.

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What it is is that they made a decision out of best intentions, one which is not significantly deviating from the norm of many publisher AND kickstarted games. If you disagree and are disappointed, OK, I can understand that. I think it's baseless to try and argue that this is somehow quite clearly a calculated show of disrespect and distrust.

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You really think the difference between a two-weeks old build and the release build is THAT big? 

This thread is a goldmine.

 

Its probably decently large, and what do you mean this thread is a goldmine ? You play alot of warcraft of something ?

 

What it is is that they made a decision out of best intentions, one which is not significantly deviating from the norm of many publisher AND kickstarted games. If you disagree and are disappointed, OK, I can understand that. I think it's baseless to try and argue that this is somehow quite clearly a calculated show of disrespect and distrust.

 

I don't think anyone is saying disrespect was intended. But it does make some of us backers feel less deserving then these other guys who know so little about the game, don't care at all even to have even the slightest idea what they are playing, get the game first. 

 

I've watched 5-6 of them, and clearly they did not follow the game, some of them make the game look really stupid, having hundreds of us playingwould have revealed higher tier reviews IMO, imagine those like Sensuke that have no life and would indepth explain everythiing mechanically without making mistakes, and even add in the lore. Their walkthrough could even potentially be a strategy guide. These others look like retards, and it pisses me off. 

 

Only one so far was worth watching. Mr Odd. yet, he still knows nothing about the game, mechanics or lore, or even who Josh Sawyer or Chris Avellone is, or whomever, from Obsidian thats been suiing interplay for like last dozen years of the fallout series and has been largely making fun of it starting the new company inXile saying he's a director/ceo in Exile....   

 

 

point is, these guys making the reviews, don't even like videogames half as much as half of us backers. We have waited 15 years for this game. They only got an offer via email to have the game for free if they will play it minus some special restrictions.. just another day at the office. 

 

scew that, we practically eat breath and sleep PoE daily, while these others, couldn't hold a match to our indepth love and ability to promote the game just out of pure fandom !

 

 

P.S.

 

since the expansion is in 6 months or less, or so... I will say its a shame that its not being crowdfunded too. We would LOVE to help it reach higher potentials too !

It would also be awesomely neat if a completely IWD spiritual successor came out. more combat/tactics/gear/Party oriented then purely RP/epic story. A game meant for more of playing like PoE but more emphasis on the battles. 

Edited by Azmodiuz
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Obsidian wrote:
 

​"those scummy backers, we're going to screw them over by giving them their game on the release date. That'll show those bastards!" 

 

 

 Now we know what's going on...

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Get angry all you like - but I am actually entitled to feel upset about this -

 

lol

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"You're a fool if you believe I would trust your benevolence. Step aside and you and your lackeys will be unhurt."


 


 


Baldur's Gate portraits for Pillars of Eternity   IXI   Icewind Dale portraits for Pillars of Eternity   IXI   Icewind Dale 2 portraits for Pillars of Eternity


 


[slap Aloth]

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This thread is a goldmine.

 

Never did I expect to be so thoroughly entertained before the game came out.

Edited by Kimaka
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"You didn't give me extra free stuff for no reason. Why do you hate me so much?"

 

It's not extra free stuff - I'm not asking for the 5,000 buck tier - just asking to be on the same page as the people that got review copies.

 

Start making fun of me all you like and posting memes - it doesn't change the fact that some backers are upset by this. They will be more than happy to take it out on Obsidian again I have no beef with other backers who are happy to come second - some people don't mind that. But I am permitted to voice my objection and have been doing so without calling names, using all caps or generally making an arse of myself.

 

Why do you think you deserve all this extra free stuff you weren't promised? You want an early copy for literally no reason. You weren't promised it, you weren't told you'd get it, you have no reason to expect to get an early play copy for this game than for literally any other game you buy.

 

As a kickstarter backer there were a very specific list of rewards offered. I backed, too; at no point did I assume I'd get ANYTHING other than what I was told I would receive for my donation. I assumed it would be a normal and typical game release with the addition of all this extra stuff that they promised us. What your feeling is a sense of entitlement, not something based on any form of logic or reason. You are demanding that they give us extra things--early game release--that wasn't promised just because you think you deserve it.

 

It's tiring.

 

 

If the game is finished enough to give away copies that function and work, then its able to be given to its backers.

 

No if's no buts no maybes - I would have been happy with having a locked down media copy and the rest of the game at release giving backers a chance to play through and not be potentially spoiled by media if they chose to.

 

Get angry all you like - but I am actually entitled to feel upset about this - especially when I have seen other projects handle their backers better.

 

I'm not angry. It's like when a toddler starts throwing a tantrum because you refuse to buy them the chocolate cereal; there's no point in getting angry. I'm baffled and saddened that Obsidian has to put up with these kinds of unreasonable demands, and a little amazed at how well they've dealt with all this Backer Drama. Nobody ever said you'd get an early media copy, but you want one anyway because you're a backer and you are *entitled* to it.

 

Pffft.

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Why do you think you deserve all this extra free stuff you weren't promised? You want an early copy for literally no reason. You weren't promised it, you weren't told you'd get it, you have no reason to expect to get an early play copy for this game than for literally any other game you buy.

 

As a kickstarter backer there were a very specific list of rewards offered. I backed, too; at no point did I assume I'd get ANYTHING other than what I was told I would receive for my donation. I assumed it would be a normal and typical game release with the addition of all this extra stuff that they promised us. What your feeling is a sense of entitlement, not something based on any form of logic or reason. You are demanding that they give us extra things--early game release--that wasn't promised just because you think you deserve it.

 

It's tiring.

 

 

What extra stuff? Noone's asking for extra stuff. What we aks for is that we get al least the same service as people that didn't back the project and made it possible in the first place.

People who bough through steam are able to preload the game right now while backers still can't do it. 

That's not a life altering calamity, but it's still something that people have a right to be upset about. It's unfair and disresprectfull. 

And just because preloading isn't a big deal to you doesn't mean that it isn't a big deal for other people. Not everyone has perfect internet and a lot of people just expect to not be punished for making the game possible in the first place.

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This thread is a goldmine.

 

Never did I expect to be so thoroughly entertained before the game came out.

 

This thread is about how they keys are coming TONIGHT and yet people are still complaining.

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Pretty sure a review copy would count as "extra stuff", Amaror.

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"You're a fool if you believe I would trust your benevolence. Step aside and you and your lackeys will be unhurt."


 


 


Baldur's Gate portraits for Pillars of Eternity   IXI   Icewind Dale portraits for Pillars of Eternity   IXI   Icewind Dale 2 portraits for Pillars of Eternity


 


[slap Aloth]

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WOW!!!! STEAM USERS GOT IT BEFORE THE GUYS WHO HELPED KICK-START IT!! ....sorry for caps, im just a lil mad.

 

Dude, go do some bjj to keep your mind off this.

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You really think the difference between a two-weeks old build and the release build is THAT big? 

This thread is a goldmine.

 

 

You sir, are the real goldmine here. I bow to you.

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What it is is that they made a decision out of best intentions, one which is not significantly deviating from the norm of many publisher AND kickstarted games. If you disagree and are disappointed, OK, I can understand that. I think it's baseless to try and argue that this is somehow quite clearly a calculated show of disrespect and distrust.

 

Granted it's not like they sat there thinking how can they screw over their backers.

 

But it does show that we meant so little to them that we were just some faceless mob who would be happy with being shoved aside and told "yeah, no, you guys did your bit you gave us the money now sod off and wait your turn"

 

How can anyone in the industry still to this day after everything that is changing not pick up on why you put fans first.

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The reality is, the audience for this game is not "Kickstarter backers," it's "gamers."

 

To increase profitability, they need to get positive reviews from reviewers that Metacritic aggregates close to release to attract other purchasers outside of the backer community.

 

I mean, my overall pledge was $330 (at the $250 level with $80 in add-ons). I did that because I wanted to support Oblivion. That was how I approached this Kickstarter. It's how I approach all Kickstarters. I mean, the allure of some of the backer rewards certainly factors in, but when I back a project it's because I want it to financially succeed.

Now, I'm not saying that Obsidian would fail to be a financial success if they released the game to backers a day or two early, but I'm not upset that they haven't because I personally want them to succeed with this game and in general. Obsidian makes good games. I want them to make more. I want them to become profitable and, hopefully, self-sustaining. So I support playing the usual game that developers and publishers do leading up to release. And that means sending out early review copies.

 

Keep in mind, doing a proper review takes a lot of time, especially for an RPG which is a huge time investment. They want reviews to either coincide or be as close to the release as possible. And they likely want to control the audience producing said reviews to those that normally review such games. Because, like it or not, Metacritic actually matters and can make or break the profitability of a game.

 

I understand that some people feel slighted and maybe they approached this Kickstarter differently than I did, and that's fine. I'm just sharing my opinion of it: I back Obsidians actions because I want them to succeed. They aren't doing this to annoy backers, they are doing this to claw their way into a position where they can keep making games.

Edited by RHelg224
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What it is is that they made a decision out of best intentions, one which is not significantly deviating from the norm of many publisher AND kickstarted games. If you disagree and are disappointed, OK, I can understand that. I think it's baseless to try and argue that this is somehow quite clearly a calculated show of disrespect and distrust.

 

THIS! This and more this! Succinctly explains everything. We needed 7 pages to derive at this point.

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So on a different topic, has there been any confirmation that the game will come with the Cookbook? 

A dev told me "Never doubt Tim Cain; as the taste tester for every recipe in the cookbook, they are delicious!"

 

So I'm assuming so.

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Man..I know it wasnt malicious/intention but it does burn not to have the keys available to redeem for those who KS it.  I hope they're available soon.

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What it is is that they made a decision out of best intentions, one which is not significantly deviating from the norm of many publisher AND kickstarted games. If you disagree and are disappointed, OK, I can understand that. I think it's baseless to try and argue that this is somehow quite clearly a calculated show of disrespect and distrust.

 

Granted it's not like they sat there thinking how can they screw over their backers.

 

But it does show that we meant so little to them that we were just some faceless mob who would be happy with being shoved aside and told "yeah, no, you guys did your bit you gave us the money now sod off and wait your turn"

 

How can anyone in the industry still to this day after everything that is changing not pick up on why you put fans first.

 

 

Yep, they sat around a table and thought "those scummy backers, we're going to screw them over by giving them their game on the release date. That'll show those bastards!" 

 

Nothing I say is going to convince you so I'm done here, but people reading this thread can make their own minds up as to whether this situation really offends them. 

 

*shrug* I backed the game because I wanted to see it made and I wanted the promised goodies. I got both. If I expected a lot more than what I was promised, I'm sure I'd have been disappointed, too.

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