SLOWED RECOVERY WHILE MOVING - NO THANKS

[pswendel]

 

 

In Sensuki's defense, it's hard to make such a massive tonal shift between the OE forums and the 'dex. You can tell when I've recently been on the codex because my posts here are way, way more aggressive.

 

That said, I think this thread has gotten way too off topic. Are people still arguing that movement in combat needs MORE of a disincentive? I think movement in combat is punishing enough with the disengagement system; anything more is far too much. Admittedly, that's just my opinion, or has my use of capital letters made my opinion moot?

 

I should probably be banned.

Disengagement attacks are more than enough to punish movement.

I'm curious if anybody feels that the disengagement trait bonuses are even worth taking over other perks.

 

Edit: my punishment in game for this choice is to basically never move when engaged.

 

Personally I will not be taking disengagement bonuses because I feel there are more valuable options, where it seems as if obsidian believes this is a game play value to have a movement based penalty offshot by player selected abilities. What if the ability instead ALLOWED a character to disengage in combat without penalty instead of adding +12 to DR. Wouldn't that bring the system into alignment with playstyles? I'd take that ability for a front line dps or offtank.

Edited March 19, 2015 by pswendel

[Lord Wafflebum]

Yeah, I thought the disengagement system point was to partially discourage moving around a lot (or is more currently the case, moving around at all). I truly don't understand for balance or play reasons why another disincentive needed to be added.

 

I really wish this thread was less hostile so Brandon or Bobby would say why it was put in, but I assume they don't want to bottom out their self esteem for the week quite yet. Maybe Josh will talk to Sensuki about it during their heart-to-hearts on SA

[Lord Wafflebum]

 

 

snip

Disengagement attacks are more than enough to punish movement.

I'm curious if anybody feels that the disengagement trait bonuses are even worth taking over other perks.

 

Edit: my punishment in game for this choice is to basically never move when engaged.

 

Personally I will not be taking disengagement bonuses because I feel there are more valuable options, where it seems as if obsidian believes this is a game play value to have a movement based penalty offshot by player selected abilities. What if the ability instead ALLOWED a character to disengage in combat without penalty instead of adding +12 to DR. Wouldn't that bring the system into alignment with playstyles? I'd take that ability for a front line dps or offtank.

 

Those very much reflect my feelings. I don't take anything that gives me disengagement bonuses, because it ends up being a waste to NOT take talents that boost combat efficacy. 

[dukefx]

IE games have no such things. In PoE there are so many ifs that rarely ever happen, and when you try to make them happen you get a pie thrown right into your face. I honestly don't understand the logic behind it.

[Adam Brennecke]

The recovery timer stopping when moving was in the first backer beta back in August and has been in since afaik. Designed to prevent kiting in combat. 

[View619]

Nice, we have an answer. Next question would be, how has this just been identified now? Was it confirmed to be removed in a build after August?

Edited March 19, 2015 by View619

[Lord Wafflebum]

I have no idea how I've never noticed this before.

 

Thanks for the info, Adam!!

[drunetovich]

Kiting is obviously bad, as AI can't handle it properly. That explains it.

[DigitalCrack]

 

 

 

 

snip

Disengagement attacks are more than enough to punish movement.

I'm curious if anybody feels that the disengagement trait bonuses are even worth taking over other perks.

 

Edit: my punishment in game for this choice is to basically never move when engaged.

 

Personally I will not be taking disengagement bonuses because I feel there are more valuable options, where it seems as if obsidian believes this is a game play value to have a movement based penalty offshot by player selected abilities. What if the ability instead ALLOWED a character to disengage in combat without penalty instead of adding +12 to DR. Wouldn't that bring the system into alignment with playstyles? I'd take that ability for a front line dps or offtank.

Those very much reflect my feelings. I don't take anything that gives me disengagement bonuses, because it ends up being a waste to NOT take talents that boost combat efficacy.

In my opinion your character should be compitent enough to move around, not nessecitating a learned talent(s). And yes it is a huge waste given that other talents increase your combat abilities far more than any disengagement talent.

[SomberSight]

Disclaimer: I haven't tested any of the more recent beta builds, and have not familiarized myself with the intricacies of the recovery/engagement mechanics. However, I have an objection to make against the idea of "movement recovery".

 

When I'm in the middle of combat (regardless of game), I don't want my movement decisions (be it regarding angles of attack, range adjustments, management of cooldowns/health, blocking of enemies, or anything else) to be slanted toward remaining stationary: That is already the ideal state which allows for the highest DPS, and in a situation without risk of character death it's a complete non-decision. By penalizing moving, an open-ended action that could be made for any number of reasons, the amount of variation in combat interaction will indubitably shrink.

 

In general, mechanics that are introduced solely to compensate for the shortcomings of a game should never punish the player in any way: If you do, you are creating breeding ground for player resentment of the game. If, in addition to this, the mechanic is so obtuse and hard to identify that the player can conceivably interpret it as a bug, then it is just that in all but name.This appears to be such a mechanic: It can't hide behind any claim of authenticity, pacing, balance, or any other reason for being I can think of, and in the video provided in the OP I had to take the narrators word for what was going on, in spite of spending several hours with this game.

 

In short, I'm quite certain I will be bothered by this mechanic if it is at all noticeable.

[Voss]

 

 

In Sensuki's defense, it's hard to make such a massive tonal shift between the OE forums and the 'dex. You can tell when I've recently been on the codex because my posts here are way, way more aggressive.

 

That said, I think this thread has gotten way too off topic. Are people still arguing that movement in combat needs MORE of a disincentive? I think movement in combat is punishing enough with the disengagement system; anything more is far too much. Admittedly, that's just my opinion, or has my use of capital letters made my opinion moot?

 

I should probably be banned.

Disengagement attacks are more than enough to punish movement.

I'm curious if anybody feels that the disengagement trait bonuses are even worth taking over other perks.

 

 

Honestly, the talents in general feel awful. Honestly I can sort the list and go down it and think 'yeah, one of those often (weapon focus), no, no, no, no, wait, what are the details: per rest=no; no, no, never, what is distant? what is close? (why don't these have explanations?), no, no, specific build, specific build, no, no, stupid, stupid, never, no, absurdly circumstantial=no, ditto, ditto, ditto, no, maybe.'

 

It makes a lot of build decisions absurdly easy, but it makes me wonder how much time was wasted on absolute trash if this is the stuff that survived the design process.  It also doesn't help that they're flat math bonuses, and boring, rather than interesting things that open up new options in combat.

 

That said, I can see a use for the rogue class ability escape, just for being able to instantly be somewhere else with minimal nonsense.  And the added security of a panic button if I really screw up, or if the companion tanks are wholly inadequate at their job before I can afford to replace them.    

Edited March 20, 2015 by Voss

[ryukenden]

Oh this is getting interest.

[Shevek]

Hmm. Maybe it was removed by mistake in v333 or added in by mistake in v480. Hope it gets resolved either way.

[Sensuki]

No he's talking about recovery time PAUSE, which was removed in v333 

Recovery time isn't paused while moving, when you move, your recovery ticks down.

It is slowed though.

[Sensuki]

Here's how you kite in this game, btw

Not quite as easy to do because they fixed targeting - but you can still do it

 

 

 

Slowed recovery time does not stop that

Edited March 20, 2015 by Sensuki

[Shdy314]

I'm curious if anybody feels that the disengagement trait bonuses are even worth taking over other perks.

Edit: my punishment in game for this choice is to basically never move when engaged.

 

Personally I will not be taking disengagement bonuses because I feel there are more valuable options, where it seems as if obsidian believes this is a game play value to have a movement based penalty offshot by player selected abilities. What if the ability instead ALLOWED a character to disengage in combat without penalty instead of adding +12 to DR. Wouldn't that bring the system into alignment with playstyles? I'd take that ability for a front line dps or offtank.

 

Ive long thought the Rogues escape should be a universal talent.

 

Pictures worth a thousand words. Hopefully that will get at least some people to stop thinking this magically prevents kiting.

Edited March 20, 2015 by Shdy314

[Sensuki]

I just realized I fell asleep reading this thread last night holding a can of coke, and woke up with it spilled all over me. Cool.

 

Btw if it's not removed - not a huge deal for me, we'll be modding out out though for anyone interested.

Edited March 20, 2015 by Sensuki

[Tamerlane]

I just realized I fell asleep reading this thread last night holding a can of coke, and woke up with it spilled all over me. Cool.

I don't think the people who run goons.txt count stuff on this forum, sorry.

[Azmodiuz]

 

 

The recovery timer stopping when moving was in the first backer beta back in August and has been in since afaik. Designed to prevent kiting in combat. 

 

Adam, what are you talking about?

 

The recovery timer does not stop while moving. The recovery timer used to be paused while moving, but it was REMOVED in v333

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/69057-333-quick-impressions-thread/page-2?do=findComment&comment=1527777

 

 

It also does jack sh1t to prevent kiting.

 

Dont be such a pompous jerk.

 

..and reported for name calling, I feel like we're babysitting sometimes on this forum.

 

Anyways, i agree with Sensuke that it raises concerns. I will be one of the guys who asks sensuke how to mod the game to remove the slowing of recovery. I am ALWAYS moving. People do not fight stationary, its silly. I also suspect the enemy does not face recovery issues.

 

The problem becomes that, the developpers made the game in a way, that we choose to undo some of the things they add, so we can enjoy the game more. Its shame on them, not just us, for having to do this.

[GreyFox]

Does disengagement have a "grace zone" yet or is that still supposed to be ludicrously over sensitive?

[Sensuki]

Nah it's just you get attacked if you move while you're engaged. They apparently fixed the bug with it that I've been demonstrating though.

[GreyFox]

So if I'm engaged but scratch my nose I get hit for moving a bit eh...yay stop kiting and nose scratching!

[Sensuki]

The IE mod has a disable for it. This topic is about slowed recovery

[GreyFox]

Yea we've established that it doesn't actually stop kiting...so improve AI and remove slowed recovery?

[mrmonocle]

@Adam

 

Don't forget that it's your game, not Sensuki's. I agree that recovery slowdown while moving is a legitimate abstraction, i'd even go further and reset the recovery timer completely if a ranged character moved. After running you have to aim again and it deserves a full recovery.